Rand can win nomination by going after H1b visas & illegal immigration

[erowe1]

You implied someone here was arguing for unrestricted immigration. No one advocated that as far as I can tell.

I do.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Back to the point of the OP...

Rand has an opportunity to take the nomination by going after the corrupt H1B visa program and illegal immigration.

He can still be for the H1B visa program, but reduce its size and scope. There are literally hundreds of thousands of American workers that are jobless due to this system. Additionally, he can show how if we reduce immigration the salaries will go up for low skill labor.

This may not be a popular theme on these forums, but it's reality. He could easily over take Walker and Cruz right now if he chooses to. Cruz is for creating an unlimited number of H1B visas, which would in essence allow any individual from India with a C.S. degree to work in the states.

You are most likely correct. If Rand were to take up the position that no increase in immigration rate is warranted right now, he would not only be the only candidate with that position, 93% of Americans might agree with him on it:

Gallup Poll: Only SEVEN PERCENT Of Americans Want More Immigration

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Back to the point of the OP...



You are most likely correct. If Rand were to take up the position that no increase in immigration is warranted right now, he would not only be the only candidate with that position, 93% of Americans might agree with him on it:

Gallup Poll: Only SEVEN PERCENT Of Americans Want More Immigration

Uhh, you do realize that your link is a survey about immigration levels, not immigration or immigrants. According to that poll 64% want the current rate of immigration to go up or stay the same. Well this is embarrassing...

And if you actually looked at the underlying poll you could have seen the trend. Confirmation bias at it's finest.

"In a follow-up question that queried Americans who are dissatisfied with the current levels of immigration, the majority -- 39% of U.S. adults in total -- said they would like to see the level of immigration decrease. This ranks among the lowest level of Americans who are dissatisfied and express a desire for less immigration since Gallup began asking the question in 2001, even if it is nominally higher than last year's 35%. The share of Americans who are dissatisfied and want more immigration (7%) was unchanged from 2014."

Lastly, no one is thinking about H1B immigration when they answer this question. Is that really what you are suggesting?

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Uhh, you do realize that your link is a survey about immigration levels, not immigration or immigrants.

Yes, and I added "rate" to my above post to make it more clear for you.

According to that poll 64% want the current rate of immigration to go up or stay the same. Well this is embarrassing...

[Updated.] Article was confusing as to the numbers. Modified, and agreed to number:

33% satisfied + 14% dissatisfied but want current levels to stay the same + 7% dissatisfied and want current levels to increase = 54%

From the Gallup summary:

60% dissatisfied with current level of immigration; 33% satisfied

The share of Americans who are dissatisfied and want more immigration (7%) was unchanged from 2014.

...

Lastly, no one is thinking about H1B immigration when they answer this question.

And where did you pull that assumption from?

 

[Brian4Liberty]

And I would add that "stay the same" does not mean increase it as most lobbyists, pundits and politicians are calling for in the near future.

 

[Krugminator2]

Did you miss the quote from Ron? He said it depends upon the health of the economy. That would take into account the unemployment rate. If you want to call that protectionist, good for you.

I know this is a contentious issue where both sides feel strongly. I am firmly in free market in labor camp.

Ron Paul was on both sides of this issue, so you either side can find quotes to justify their viewpoint. When he faced voters and reelection, he voted for things like the border fence and did interviews with VDare. Starting in 2011, he changed pretty dramatically. Here is what one of the anti-immigration ratings sites said about him.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...s-new-book-sinks-his-immigration-grade-f.html

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I know this is a contentious issue where both sides feel strongly. I am firmly in free market in labor camp.

Ron Paul was on both sides of this issue, so you either side can find quotes to justify their viewpoint. When he faced voters and reelection, he voted for things like the border fence and did interviews with VDare. Starting in 2011, he changed pretty dramatically. Here is what one of the anti-immigration ratings sites said about him.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...s-new-book-sinks-his-immigration-grade-f.html

Interesting. So their contention is that Ron was good based upon his actions, but took a position they did not like in this book. Wonder who wrote that section of the book?

The biggest problem with Rep. Paul's (R-Texas) latest comments on immigration is that they are NOT just some ad hoc thoughts tossed off carelessly at some speaking event. These are engraved in a brand new book.
...
If you look up Rep. Paul's immigration grade for his congressional actions, you will find a much better report. He earns a 'B' grade over his career.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Yes, and I added "rate" to my above post to make it more clear for you.



What are you talking about? From the poll, 33% are satisfied with current level. 7% want more. Add those together and you get 40% who want the immigration rate "to go up or stay the same", not 64%. It is embarrassing, for you.

Are you Zippyjuan? You are using his tactics.

From the Gallup summary:
...

And where did you pull that assumption from?

Reading comprehension skillz a little lacking, friend?

"In total, 60 percent of respondents said they were dissatisfied with the current levels of immigration to the United States. 33 percent said they were satisfied with current levels.

But among those who are dissatisfied with current immigration levels, 39 percent said they want less immigration, 14 percent say they want current levels to say the same, but only 7 percent say they want immigration levels to increase."

33% satisfied + 14% dissatisfied but want current levels to stay the same + 7% dissatisfied and want current levels to increase = 54%

If you add the 39% who want less immigration, you get to the 93% who had an opinion with 7% expressing no opinion. Maybe it helps that I looked at the actual poll since Daily Caller incorrectly said "among those were satisfied" when those %s applied to the whole surveyed population. As I pointed out the actual poll also shows a clear trend that the number of people who want less immigration is rapidly decreasing.

It's getting a lot more embarrassing for you now that you tried to correct me and were wrong to do so. I'd be careful with your sources next time.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

Interesting. So their contention is that Ron was good based upon his actions, but took a position they did not like in this book. Wonder who wrote that section of the book?

I guess the same ghost writer wrote this policy paper as well and again takes credit for what he wrote on immigration in Liberty Defined and stands by it: http://www.ronpaul.com/2013-02-03/ron-paul-stop-illegal-immigration-without-creating-a-police-state/

Man you think he wouldn't let the same ghostwriter keep writing all this stuff he disagrees with after the newsletters, eh?

"As I noted in my most recent book, Liberty Defined, much of our immigration problems would be eliminated were the federal government to simply return to sound money practices and end the welfare incentive for individuals to come to the US illegally. Afterward, what remains of the problem would mostly be solved with a far more generous and flexible guest worker program. Whatever the case, turning the US into a police state in order to fight a hyped up illegal immigration “crisis” is a bad deal for us all."

 

[Krugminator2]

Interesting. So their contention is that Ron was good based upon his actions, but took a position they did not like in this book. Wonder who wrote that section of the book?

I am pretty certain Tom Woods was the ghostwriter for his book on the Fed and one other book. I would say there is a better than 70% chance Rockwell or Woods co-wrote Liberty Defined.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

33% satisfied + 14% dissatisfied but want current levels to stay the same + 7% dissatisfied and want current levels to increase = 54%

If you add the 39% who want less immigration, you get to the 93% who had an opinion with 7% expressing no opinion. Maybe it helps that I looked at the actual poll since Daily Caller incorrectly said "among those were satisfied" when those %s applied to the whole surveyed population. As I pointed out the actual poll also shows a clear trend that the number of people who want less immigration is rapidly decreasing.

OK, I'll admit that the articles were confusing. I couldn't download the PDF at the time to look at the raw data. [I went back and edited my response with an agreed upon number of 54%.]

Got it now...formatting not the best.

(Asked of those dissatisfied with the level of immigration into the U.S.) Would you like to see the level of immigration in this country increased, decreased, or remain about the same?
COMBINED RESPONSES (Q.11K/17): SATISFACTION WITH IMMIGRATION LEVELS
- "Total satisfied" "Dissatisfied, want more" "Dissatisfied, want less" "Dissatisfied, remain same" "No opinion"
2015 Jan 5-8 33 7 39 14 7
2014 Jan 5-8 38 7 35 12 8
2013 Jan 7-10 36 5 35 16 8
2012 Jan 5-8 28 6 42 16 8

Yes, the articles were hard to decipher. You are correct that "Dissatisfied, want less" was previously over 50%, so that has dropped. And at least this row of numbers adds up to 100%. To further confuse it, they have "Dissatisfied, remain same". What does that mean? Unhappy about some other aspect of immigration?

I'll stick with what I said when I first posted it. Only "7% dissatisfied and want current levels to increase". Pretty much every scheme proposed right now calls for an increase. A politician who takes the position of no increase in the rate right now would be unique, and could gain support with that position.

If Rand were to take up the position that no increase in immigration rate is warranted right now, he would not only be the only candidate with that position, 93% of Americans might agree with him on it:

Gallup Poll: Only SEVEN PERCENT Of Americans Want More Immigration

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I am pretty certain Tom Woods was the ghostwriter for his book on the Fed and one other book. I would say there is a better than 70% chance Rockwell or Woods co-wrote Liberty Defined.

Basically what I was thinking.

 

[whoisjohngalt]

I'll stick with what I said when I first posted it. Only "7% dissatisfied and want current levels to increase". Pretty much every scheme proposed right now calls for an increase. A politician who takes the position of no increase in the rate right now would be unique, and could gain support with that position.

Hard for me to provide proof, but certainly anecdotal experience down here in the Lone Start state would strongly suggest when people are asked about immigration, they are thinking about Mexicans. I'd look harder, but I have to head home.

Also, when 1/3 of the populace can't name the vice prez and fully 2/3 of the population can't name a single member of SCOTUS. I would be willing to bet it's way more than half the population has no idea what an H1B is. Would be interesting to see how they feel about highly skilled immigrants coming in.

Even the most staunch anti-immigration people I listen to, like Nigel Farage, suggest that H1B type programs are a good thing. UKIP always makes sure to include "low skilled" in their critiques of immigrants or immigration.

Sorry if I was an asshole at any point in the conversation. Have a lovely evening.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Hard for me to provide proof, but certainly anecdotal experience down here in the Lone Start state would strongly suggest when people are asked about immigration, they are thinking about Mexicans.

Ironically, my anecdotal experience is that everyone who talks about too much immigration is talking about H1Bs from Asia.

That includes American Hispanics who want more immigration, but not from Asia. That will skew a survey in strange ways.

 

[RonPaulGeorge&Ringo]

Man you think he wouldn't let the same ghostwriter keep writing all this stuff he disagrees with after the newsletters, eh?

Ron Paul only ever specifically disavowed two or three statements from the newsletters. Those statements were written James B. Powell, who hasn't written for any Paulian outfit for 20 years.

 

[AuH20]

The #1 reason why Rand Paul may not take off like we thought. It's disappointing that Hispandering may have cost him and created a perception of him that is not beneficial.

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2015-04-20/can-ted-cruz-make-rand-paul-obsolete-

LITCHFIELD, N.H.—On a warm spring Sunday, as guns were fired harmlessly in the close distance, a growing crowd of conservatives waited for Texas Senator Ted Cruz. He was scheduled to speak at the Londonderry Fish and Game Club, at the first 2016 presidential candidate forum organized by a coalition of New Hampshire Second Amendment groups. Kentucky Senator Rand Paul had spoken in the same spot three months earlier. Many of the dozens of voters waiting outside on Sunday had voted for Paul's father, the former congressman from Texas.

“He had a lot of ideas that strayed from the establishment, and he had the moral outlook I had,” said Mark Toto, 36.

“I’ve always been libertarian-leaning,” said Mark Gross, 59, a Gulf War veteran who preferred to use his nickname, Gunner.

“Rand Paul’s also got a lot of mainstream, watered down Republican, I’m-gonna-go-for-amnesty kind of thing.”
Mark Toto

Yet both men were leaning toward Cruz over Paul's genetic successor. “I’d really love them to get on the same ticket,” suggested Toto. “Ted Cruz seems to be a little more down to earth—a little more real, I suppose. Rand Paul’s also got a lot of mainstream, watered down Republican, I’m-gonna-go-for-amnesty kind of thing. And Rand Paul’s probably the more marketable candidate, which sucks.”

 

[Christian Liberty]

"illegal immigration." lol @ "libertarians" who suddenly become legal positivists when something like this comes up.

 

[RickyJ]

How can you possibly support that?

Why do you give a crap who the president of the USA is if you don't give a damn about the sovereignty of the USA? Why are you even on this political board?

 

[David Sadler]

Wow. Unreal. It's like there is literally no one speaking for the unemployed engineers and IT workers except for Jeff Sessions.

He would easily seal the nomination if he just sided with Sessions. It's like a no brainer.

I agree with you. H1B visas have decimated the American IT work force and career field for millions of qualified and talented American high-tech professionals.

The comments supporting this destruction are typical of the bewildering tone oozing from both parties on this and other issues vital to maintaining a qualified high-tech domestic work force. This is actually a national security issue.

Rand Paul could distinguish himself apart from the crowd by making this a highly visible issue.

 

[AuH20]

"illegal immigration." lol @ "libertarians" who suddenly become legal positivists when something like this comes up.

They could be Hoppe influenced Libertarians who see how crazy these initiatives are at face value.