Question regarding Unitarianism

[PaulaGem]

Crist is greek for messiah. You can`t belive in the Messiah, but at the same time claim all religions are equivalent.

Christ is the geek word used in place of the Hebrew term which means "anointed of God". There are many who were considered Mossiach in the O.T. Yeshua was a Spiritual Mossiach. He does not fulfill the expectations of the Jews concerning the political Mossiach expected by the Jews at the time of Christ.

 

[acptulsa]

And there's a difference between Kappa and Chi, too.

 

[LibertyEagle]

With the possible exception of Paine, the Founders were not Deists

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173113

 

[nate895]

The root word of Christianity is neither Trinity, Creation, Literalism, Holy Land Intervention, Old Catholic Mythology, Intolerance nor Dante's Inferno.

The root word of Christianity is Christ. Pure and simple.

I'm not a Unitarian, but I can sure tolerate them. I am not holier than they...

So, we should allow heretics to claim the title Christian? Orthodox Christianity is defined by adherence to the Bible. Do you have to have all your "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed in your theology to be saved? No, but we do have to be within the realm of orthodoxy. Unitarians deny essential doctrines, most importantly the Trinity.

If you don't even have the true nature of God right, how can you be saved? Unitarians aren't worshiping the God of Scripture. How can you be considered among the sheep if you don't even recognize the shepherd? When wolves (as are Unitarians) come among the sheeps, the duty of Christians is to warn the others and chase them off, not accept them in the spirit of brotherhood. Pointing out to them their serious errors is how you express your love and compassion for them. Letting them continue in serious error without informing them and restating the gospel (which includes the penal substitutionary atonement) is the worst thing a Christian can possibly do.

I generally agree with this chart as far as essential/non-essential doctrine.

 

[PaulaGem]

So, we should allow heretics to claim the title Christian? Orthodox Christianity is defined by adherence to the Bible. Do you have to have all your "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed in your theology to be saved? No, but we do have to be within the realm of orthodoxy. Unitarians deny essential doctrines, most importantly the Trinity.

If you don't even have the true nature of God right, how can you be saved? Unitarians aren't worshiping the God of Scripture. How can you be considered among the sheep if you don't even recognize the shepherd? When wolves (as are Unitarians) come among the sheeps, the duty of Christians is to warn the others and chase them off, not accept them in the spirit of brotherhood. Pointing out to them their serious errors is how you express your love and compassion for them. Letting them continue in serious error without informing them and restating the gospel (which includes the penal substitutionary atonement) is the worst thing a Christian can possibly do.

I generally agree with this chart as far as essential/non-essential doctrine.

If Yeshua didn't expect the Samaritan woman to be an orthodox Jew why should you expect others who try to follow his teachings to be orthodox Christians?

John 4:23-24

The time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth

 

[nate895]

If Yeshua didn't expect the Samaritan woman to be an orthodox Jew why should you expect others who try to follow his teachings to be orthodox Christians?

The people who you call "orthodox Jews" followed the letter and not the spirit of the law. An example would be that the Law indicated that one couldn't travel so far away from your property on the Sabbath. At the time, the Jews would get around this by putting pieces of their property a long way away from their home so that they could go farther on the Sabbath. They might have followed God by the letter of the Law, but not the spirit. This is what Christ condemned, not daring to be firm on essential doctrine.

Also, Unitarians aren't even worshiping the same God! It isn't as if we have a disagreement about peripheral issues like the mode of worship or whether certain sacraments should be administered to children, we disagree on who God is! This is a fundamental issue, and if you don't have it right the rest of the Bible is speaking nonsense, which is probably why Unitarians denied inerrancy early on.

To show the gravity of the issue of the Trinity to the Early Church:

Anathemas of the Second Council of Constantinople

I. If anyone does not confess that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are one nature or essence, one power or authority, worshipped as a trinity of the same essence, one deity in three hypostases or persons, let him be anathema. For there is one God and Father, of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and one Holy Spirit, in whom are all things.

Galatians 1: 8-9 also commands us

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [anathema in Greek] 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

Unitarians teach a radically different Gospel, and are therefore in serious error. Christians cannot compromise essential doctrine. Biblical Christian doctrine is what separates us from man-made religion and philosophies.

 

[Spot the Fed]

current unitarianism has nothing in common with the beliefs of Jefferson or the other founders. Current unitarianism is 'whateverism'.

 

[PaulaGem]

Also, Unitarians aren't even worshiping the same God! It isn't as if we have a disagreement about peripheral issues like the mode of worship or whether certain sacraments should be administered to children, we disagree on who God is!

I've got news for you - there is only one God. If a person believes in a Transcendental One or Spirit, they are worshipping the same God.

The theology concerning God is irrelevant because it is man's way of undestanding God, the attributes given to God are irrlevant because God is infinite and unknowable as a whole, the form of worship given to God is irrelevant unless it is honest an heartfelt because that is all that he/she asks.

How can anyone ever accuse or claim to know that another human being is not worshipping the same or the correct God?????

 

[PaulaGem]

Unitarians teach a radically different Gospel, and are therefore in serious error. Christians cannot compromise essential doctrine. Biblical Christian doctrine is what separates us from man-made religion and philosophies.

Christians who believe that the Gospel is anything other than the Golden Rule as taught by Yeshua are the ones who are in serious error.

Rome has given them a false gospel, a pagan death cult.

Yeshua came to give the bread of Life.

How anyone can confuse the two is beyond me.

 

[nate895]

I've got news for you - there is only one God. If a person believes in a Transcendental One or Spirit, they are worshipping the same God.

The theology concerning God is irrelevant because it is man's way of undestanding God, the attributes given to God are irrlevant because God is infinite and unknowable as a whole, the form of worship given to God is irrelevant unless it is honest an heartfelt because that is all that he/she asks.

How can anyone ever accuse or claim to know that another human being is not worshipping the same or the correct God?????

How can I? Because God has revealed Himself in Scripture. If you don't worship Him, you aren't worshiping the real, Triune, God of the Universe. So much of Christian theology comes from the doctrine of the Trinity that denying it leads to so many heresies that it is difficult to count them all. As I stated, if you aren't worshiping the Trinity, the Bible and the Gospel are nonsense.

Christians who believe that the Gospel is anything other than the Golden Rule as taught by Yeshua are the ones who are in serious error.

Rome has given them a false gospel, a pagan death cult.

Yeshua came to give the bread of Life.

How anyone can confuse the two is beyond me.

It is you who are in serious error. What you speak of as the "Gospel" is none other than the Law. The Law brings death, because no man can follow its rules to the letter and spirit. The Gospel brings life for Christ died on the cross as a substitution for the sins of the people the Father gave unto Him. That is the only way to be saved, to believe that the Second Person of the Trinity came to Earth and took upon Himself your sins and paid your debt before God Almighty.

 

[acptulsa]

I personally think Paula has a point. There is but one God, and we aren't equipped to truly know that Being. Furthermore, there really isn't all that much in scripture to support the Trinity, and quite a lot less to suggest that admitting the divine nature of the Trinity is a prerequesite to getting into heaven.

Now, you must admit that there are many instances of the federal government being regarded as following the letter of the Constitution--the welfare clause, for example--without there being any question at all that it isn't following the spirit of the Constitution. And these errors are institutionalized. Given the warnings in the New Testament about following false prophets, I think Paula can be excused for her skepticism.

Are you denying that skeptical is how God made her? Do you think God wouldn't take that into account? Why not? God's moving in too mysterious a way to suit you?

 

[Gaius1981]

Nate, I understand and agree with the arguments in favor of there being a God, but if I'd follow Christianity it'd be because I considered it the best way of honoring Him—not because I though that every word of the religious dogma presented in the Bible was true. What is your reason for believing that Christianity, and your particular denomination of Christianity, is more true than other religions and denominations? Do you believe that you would have had the same belief if you had been born in for example India? Wouldn't you agree that if there was one true religion, it would have "won out" by now, after all these years? Clearly the One True Religion would have stronger influence that the false ones, such as Islam.

 

[nate895]

Nate, I understand and agree with the arguments in favor of there being a God, but if I'd follow Christianity it'd be because I considered it the best way of honoring Him—not because I though that every word of the religious dogma presented in the Bible was true. What is your reason for believing that Christianity, and your particular denomination of Christianity, is more true than other religions and denominations? Do you believe that you would have had the same belief if you had been born in for example India? Wouldn't you agree that if there was one true religion, it would have "won out" by now, after all these years? Clearly the One True Religion would have stronger influence that the false ones, such as Islam.

This where theology comes into play. If you don't have the proper theology, you can't have the answers to these very good questions. Why aren't Muslims following Christ? Why aren't people in India following Christ? Surely, God must give them a chance at salvation? The answer to that is that unless they have been chosen by God unto eternal salvation they cannot, and do not want to, believe. All people have been implanted with the knowledge of God and are "without excuse" (Romans 1:18-20) and know the eternal decree of God that people who practice the wicked acts they commit deserve death (1:32). God doesn't give out "equal opportunity" to every person in the sense that each person have equal ability to choose Him. You either can't choose Him, and won't be able to until you have been graced by Him, or you have been graced and can't choose anything but worshiping Him (John 6:44).

Many, including many Christians who I believe are entirely regenerate and have eternal life, find this type of doctrine offensive, but it is the only choice that remains faithful to God, the Bible, and reality. I believe my denomination (I am technically not a member of any church since my doctrine has changed, but I intend on becoming an Orthodox Presbyterian) is true because I believe it most faithfully and consistently upholds Biblical doctrines. The reason why I believe the Bible (intellectually speaking, for the real reason I believe it is by the Grace of God) is because without it and its principles the world would be incomprehensible. As far as I can tell, all other philosophies and religions arbitrarily borrow important Christian principles with no basis in their own system.

The Bible claims that "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge..." (Proverbs 1:7a), it claims that in order to know anything at all, the God of Scripture must be true. This is not to say that people outside of Christianity don't know things, but that they have no reason to in their philosophical/religious system. They must borrow from Christian principles in order to do so. According to I Corinthians 1:20 (ESV), "Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" Also, Proverbs 26:4-5 declares
4 Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.
In other words, don't go around trying to prove things using the unbeliever's "folly," but rather show how you are consistent and the unbeliever's philosophy leads to utter foolishness.

I am just getting into this kind of apologetic, so I cannot go into too much depth at this point, but I will direct you to "Why I Believe in God" by Cornelius Van Til.

Edit: As far as my faith being raised into this faith. It isn't as if I have never studied the issues for myself. In fact, I have and have come to an extremely different theology from my parents.

 

[tonesforjonesbones]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=173113

 

[nate895]

I personally think Paula has a point. There is but one God, and we aren't equipped to truly know that Being. Furthermore, there really isn't all that much in scripture to support the Trinity, and quite a lot less to suggest that admitting the divine nature of the Trinity is a prerequesite to getting into heaven.

Now, you must admit that there are many instances of the federal government being regarded as following the letter of the Constitution--the welfare clause, for example--without there being any question at all that it isn't following the spirit of the Constitution. And these errors are institutionalized. Given the warnings in the New Testament about following false prophets, I think Paula can be excused for her skepticism.

Are you denying that skeptical is how God made her? Do you think God wouldn't take that into account? Why not? God's moving in too mysterious a way to suit you?

I do not deny God is incomprehensible, in fact what is the most incomprehensible to me is why He would enter His own creation in order to save a single rebellious sinner, let alone the countless numbers He did save. There are so many things about the God of Scripture that I cannot wrap my puny mind around, but I do know the essentials. As far as being skeptical, yes we should be skeptical of new teachers. Who is the new teacher in this case? Unitarians. The Unitarian heresies of the Early Church were stamped out, and that was the one of the bigger battles in the Early Church. The Trinitarians ultimately won out and Unitarianism didn't show back up until later. How can worshiping a God with entirely different attributes (such as Unitarians do) from the one of the Bible possible be evidence of regeneration, especially when they know the other side's arguments?

As for proof of the Trinity from Scripture, I think the strongest case can be made in the moment Jesus was baptized. In that moment, God the Father declared that Christ was His Son and the Holy Spirit came over Christ. We know from John 1 that Christ is God, and given that information this scene is ridiculous without One God, One Essence, in Three Persons.

Also, as for God working in "mysterious ways," my best friend used to be an atheist until he took one of those "career aptitude" tests that said he should become a clergyman. Afterward, he further investigated the issue and became convinced of Christ. Just another example of God's patience with His people mentioned in 2 Peter 3:8-9.