Question for anarchists - How would you handle national defense?

[Travlyr]

I'm just asking questions. I don't see anything in the early US that wouldn't be an anarchist's dream...

Ron Paul reinforces that notion.

"The U.S. Constitution is the most unique and best contract ever drawn up between a people and their government in history. Though flawed from the beginning, because all men are flawed, it nevertheless has served us well and set an example for the entire world. Yet no matter how hard the authors tried, the corrupting influence of power was not thwarted by the Constitution.

The notion of separate state and local government, championed by the followers of Jefferson, was challenged by the Hamiltonians almost immediately following the ratification of the Constitution. Early on, the supporters of strong, centralized government promoted central banking, easy credit, protectionism/mercantilism, and subsidies for corporate interests.

Although the 19th Century generally was kind to the intent of the Constitution, namely limiting government power, a major setback occurred with the Civil War and the severe undermining of the principle of sovereign states. The Civil War profoundly changed the balance of power in our federalist system, paving the way for centralized big government.

Although the basic principle underlying the constitutional republic we were given was compromised in the post-Civil War period, it was not until the 20th Century that steady and significant erosion of the constitutional restraints placed on the central government occurred. This erosion adversely affected not only economic and civil liberties, but foreign affairs as well.

We now have persistent abuse of the Constitution by the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. Our leaders in Washington demonstrate little concern for the rule of law, liberty, and our republican form of government." - Ron Paul

The 14th amendment was never properly ratified.

 

[Black Flag]

Ron Paul reinforces that notion.

The 14th amendment was never properly ratified.

So, I am surprised you are so much a Constitutionalist - as it was written by Hamilton and decried by Jefferson.

Jefferson quipped of the Constitutional Congress, which he did not attend:
"Now they have a King, but one of their own choosing"

 

[Travlyr]

Ignoring the Constitution is not working.

 

[Black Flag]

Ignoring the Constitution is not working.

Following every word - this is where you are.

It never could work.

It is irrational to believe that the entity charged with making and enforcing law would ever make and enforce a law to limit itself.

That is asking the devil to tie himself up with his own rope. Only the most naive would believe the knots he would tie could not be undone.

 

[Travlyr]

The Constitution pretty much worked for 85 years until counterfeiting operations began and warmongers undermined it.

 

[Black Flag]

The Constitution pretty much worked for 85 years until counterfeiting operations began and warmongers undermined it.

It didn't last even 5 years.

The Whiskey Rebellion, or Whiskey Insurrection, was a tax protest in the United States beginning in 1791, during the presidency of George Washington.

The Whiskey Rebellion demonstrated that the new national government had the willingness and ability to suppress resistance to its laws.

 

[TheTexan]

How many years has it been since every square inch on this planet has been claimed by a State? I don't know, but not very long. You used to be able to just pack up your shit and leave. Good luck with that now, even the oceans are claimed.

Even after all the land was taken, many lovers of liberty pinned their hopes on freedom on this experiment known as the United States. This experiment failed with the war of Northern Aggression, and its failure has only become more apparent since.

So 150 years ago marked the first time in the history of man kind that Anarchism needed to be considered as a solution to the tyranny of the State.

The need for a solution to the problem of the state is becoming more and more necessary with each passing year, and as they say, innovation is born out of necessity.

By the way, wasn't this thread supposed to be about national defense?

 

[Black Flag]

By the way, wasn't this thread supposed to be about national defense?

The question was throughly answered.

There is no fundamental, practical, theoretical, or epistemological argument to why free men could not defend themselves to any degree necessary and equal to any nation state, should the need arise.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

It didn't last even 5 years.

The Whiskey Rebellion, or Whiskey Insurrection, was a tax protest in the United States beginning in 1791, during the presidency of George Washington.

The Whiskey Rebellion demonstrated that the new national government had the willingness and ability to suppress resistance to its laws.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Black Flag again. drat. I'll +rep ya ASAP.

 

[TheTexan]

There is no fundamental, practical, theoretical, or epistemological argument to why free men could not defend themselves to any degree necessary and equal to any nation state, should the need arise.

Right, but there's like 300 hundred different viable ways of doing it, and I'd rather be arguing over which way is best

 

[ProIndividual]

Ignoring the Constitution is not working.

It cannot work because it can be ignored. There is no inherent magicin the paper and ink that stop the state from growing. A small state unleashes the free market from which the state simply gets a more wealthy society to extort when it grows again. If the state isn't abolished you doom future generations to the same fate.

Make the state as illegal as any other mafia collecting protection money (tax)...problem solved.

 

[Travlyr]

It cannot work because it can be ignored. There is no inherent magicin the paper and ink that stop the state from growing. A small state unleashes the free market from which the state simply gets a more wealthy society to extort when it grows again. If the state isn't abolished you doom future generations to the same fate.

Make the state as illegal as any other mafia collecting protection money (tax)...problem solved.

As long as the document that created the state is ignored, then isn't it already abolished?

 

[ProIndividual]

OP, I think the best way to have private defense is a little above my pay grade (I'm not paid...lol). But I can say this:

W/o a state, you cannot through private business accumulate in any one company enough money to fund wars of aggression that are unpopular, empire around the world, etc. It would take the cooperation of several companies in the defense industry to pool those kind of resources (currently, trillions of dollars). So, we'd have a defense, but not one so easily turned into a centralized war machine of aggression. It also wouldn't turn on it's people, as each company has the incentive of going after it's competitors if they are deemed a threat or act aggressively unilaterally. They are confined to self defense and cooridination by the forces of the market, public opinion, and the natural law (that the state is unlawful).

I wouldn't fear Trillion dollar adventures overseas, crackdowns here at home, or wars between the private firms. All of that either goes against the profit motive, their ability to accumulate enough capital and resources, customer satisfaction (public opinion), or all of the above.

If some anarchist was also an expereinced soldier (perhaps became an anarchist after being a high ranking officer) or a defense contractor, then we'd get really good technical answers as to how this would look.

One thing is for sure...we don't need to hand sociopaths the ability to accumulate huge resources and taxes to fund aggressive wars, we don't need to hand them armies and police, and we don't need to hand them power. None of that makes us any safer.

 

[Black Flag]

As long as the document that created the state is ignored, then isn't it already abolished?

Sir, do you see the State 'gone'?

Didn't think so.

The State does not exist because a piece of paper.

It exist because it can exercise violence at gun point.

Oh, and to add to the ancient history lesson, do not forget this destruction of the Freedom of Speech

"...restrict speech critical of the government with the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798..."

So much for the "guarantee" of Freedom of Speech

 

[ProIndividual]

As long as the document that created the state is ignored, then isn't it already abolished?

Obviously not, or we'd arrest the politicians for continuing to extort (tax) us for protection money on the threat of kidnapping (prison). They still are in charge of the police and military, and own monopolies on both. They still use drones to surveil us...I could go on, but it's ad nauseum.

Of course they aren't abolished! How could you even ask that?!

 

[Travlyr]

Sir, do you see the State 'gone'?

Didn't think so.

The State does not exist because a piece of paper.

It exist because it can exercise violence at gun point.

Oh, and to add to the ancient history lesson, do not forget this destruction of the Freedom of Speech

"...restrict speech critical of the government with the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798..."

So much for the "guarantee" of Freedom of Speech

What is your proposal to abolish the state?

 

[Travlyr]

Obviously nit, or we'd arrest the politicians for continuing to extort (tax) us for protection money on the threat of kidnapping (prison). They still are in charge of the police and military, and own monopolies on both. They still use drones to surveil us...I could go on, but it's ad nauseum.

Of course they aren't abolished! How could you even ask that?!

As long as they ignore the Constitution, then they do not have legitimate authority. What is your proposal to abolish the state?

 

[ProIndividual]

What is your proposal to abolish the state?

Simply make the state, like all other mafia, illegal. They are afterall, the largest criminal organization on the planet, they fund themselves via protection money, and are only distinguishable from the other mafias in that they brainwash kids to love them, build an idolic pseudo-religion around their symbols (flags, anthems, oaths, etc.), and have declared themselves legal while all other competitors (the other mafias) illegal.

If you can make one mafia illegal, you can make them all illegal. Extortion (tax) should be a crime no matter who does it. Just applying natural law to them like everyone else abolishes them in practice. No extortion, no funding, no funding, no state. If everyone stopped paying taxes tomorrow (or even most people) they couldn't borrow anymore, their monopoly on money would be gone (so printing money wouldn't help them, as no one would accept the money since it's so inflationary), and they couldn't force anyone to fund their oligarchy. All that needs to be done to get most people to stop paying taxes is to tell them they no longer have to and won't go to jail for not paying.

Bye bye state. Hello liberty and natural law.

And BTW, even if they obey the Constitution...they still don't have legitimate authority. I didn't consent to it by being born here and some dead dudes 200 years ago making promises on my behalf. I'm not their cattle. Legitimate implies ethical...and ethically there is only one way to gain legitimacy...by getting my permission. Hence, no state is ever legitimate.

If you want legitimate voluntary govt, have at it...but that doesn't imply geographic monopolies in which you can extort at will. It implies you and like minded people fund it by donation only.

 

[Travlyr]

Make them illegal eh? Under what authority?

I think I'll just keep supporting Ron Paul, sound money, limited government, and a foreign policy of freedom.

 

[onlyrp]

The Constitution pretty much worked for 85 years until counterfeiting operations began and warmongers undermined it.

what a great constitution that allowed it.