Question Concerning Poverty

Dajafe

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I am a firm Ron Paul supporter and agree with him on nearly everything, most specifically his stance on foreign policy and personal liberties. One question I have, however, is whether or not he has a specific plan to alleviate poverty in America.

I truly commend Dr. Paul's insistence on curtailing the corrupt influence of big business and big government alike, and believe this will go a long way in reversing the devastating gap between the rich and the poor. In addition, Dr. Paul wishes to cut back the War on Drugs, a policy that does more to attack the impoverished in our nation than quell the use of drugs. I've also heard Dr. Paul say that it would not be his first priority to attack the welfare apparatus, a view I appreciate.

All this being said, however, I wonder if, aside from fixing many of the negative forces underway in this country affecting the poor, Dr. Paul has any positive/progressive ideas as to how we might seek to rectify this situation? I will vote for Dr. Paul regardless, so please don't hesitate to answer as truthfully as possible.
 
I would tell you to check your premise of what government should do. Is alleviating poverty a proper role of government? If you believe that it is then you will probably not like the solution that libertarians propose.
 
trying to help the poor always has the opposite of the intended effect
 
To actually answer your question, no Dr. Paul has not issued any progressive/positive policy solutions to alleviate poverty. He would tell you that only a true free market cures poverty, it just needs a chance to work without government interference. Of course, this is specifically speaking of the federal government. The states should be allowed to do whatever they want in regards to providing solutions to poverty.
 
a progressive policy is usually a statist or socialist policy, something that Dr. Paul is absolutely opposed to.

One thing he'd do is make social security optional and abolish the income tax; this eliminates a large amount of taxes for those who make "just enough" to be taxed by the federal income tax (and well, everyone is taxed via social security).

Still though, the best thing he'd do to help the poor is abolishing the Fed and returning to a gold standard, which would have the effect of creating a currency which does not devalue...this means that when you go to the store to buy X,Y, and Z, it'll cost the same today as it will 20 years in the future (assuming competition hasn't forced lower prices, which is very likely to happen). As it currently stands, the value of the dollar is going down, but people's wages are remaining the same...so it makes most people even more poor.

He'd also cut all subsidies, which means less of a tax burden on all of us, and it'll create more market competition, which means lower prices at the store (and eventually, the pump).

He definitely would not open up any further welfare programs, and would likely (provided he could be President, continuously for the next 100 years) abolish all federal welfare programs after a certain period of time.

He'd also bring our troops home, which would mean less expenses abroad, and therefore lower taxes.

I'm sure there's a few other things he'd do, but those stick out in my mind.
 
paraphrasing from an interview i saw a while back, he said that with lower taxes, a free market, and greater prosperity, people would have more money to give to charity, which they do anyway. that's basically his plan -- let people keep more of their own money so they can give more to charity.

remember that private charities, if run ethically, are incredibly more efficient at getting help to people who need it than the government. the statistics and studies from the 70s that showed for every $10 billion of taxpayer dollars spent on the federal food stamp program, $5.61 billion was stolen, $2.5 billion went to salaries and bureaucratic expenditures, and $750 million went to pay for the food of union members on strike. So basically only a little over $1 billion, or about 10%, went to people who needed help (and a few scammers too probably) -- this information is from "We Hold These Truths" by Larry McDonald. I don't know if things have gotten better or worse than then, but you can see from this why letting the government forcefully take our money and redistribute it is a bad idea for many reasons.....
 
Welfare programs are part of a very important discussion, and here are my views [others may vary, that’s why we discuss them]:

1. Moral Hazard. A basic rule of economics is that any payment which rewards a certain type of behavior is likely to encourage that exact behavior; therefore, it is very dangerous to reward undesired behavior or to provide relief from the consequences of undesired behavior. Poverty programs need to be very careful to not reward a person for not trying to get out of poverty. I know it sounds harsh, but the long term benefits to that person and to society are often to do nothing. If society can identify a circumstance where a person is in a predicament through no action or inaction of that person’s choosing, then possibly governmental assistance could be appropriate. Again, one must be very careful here. This was an example I learned from a professor in a class 20 years ago, and it was based on a case study in Australia [we have an obvious similar example here in the US from just a few years ago]: a river in Australia had a massive flood, destroying a number of homes in the area. After the flood, the government provided compensation for the victims. It seemed like a compassionate thing to do. Unfortunately, years later people built more homes in the same area, many more than the original number because the assumption was heck, the government will probably cover our losses again, why not! This led to more government regulation on where people can build homes, which leads to a loss of freedom.

2. State Action v. Federal Action. To the extent that we have poverty programs, they are properly left to the States. The States are more local, the voters and politicians are more involved with local needs and situations, and the States can adjust and change failed policies, and learn lessons from successful policies, faster than the Federal government [which rarely learns from past mistakes—farm aid, for example].
 
State Action v. Federal Action. To the extent that we have poverty programs, they are properly left to the States. The States are more local, the voters and politicians are more involved with local needs and situations, and the States can adjust and change failed policies, and learn lessons from successful policies, faster than the Federal government [which rarely learns from past mistakes—farm aid, for example].

This is basically the argument I have made to many a liberal in support of Dr. Paul--and the libertarian ideal in general.

Doesn't matter how hard you work to eliminate poverty. Just as soon as you think you have it done some Nazarean fisherman comes along and insists on owning nothing. What can you do but try to provide opportunity?
 
Welfarism/Socialism doesn't eliminate or even reduce poverty.
How long have we had welfarism?
Have the rolls of people needing these services increased or decrease over the last 70 years?

The idea is that free markets and allowing people to freely compete for resources will maximize the number of people who experience prosperity.

For instance, if I didn't have to pay 9 million taxes, and file 9 million forms, and obtain 9million permits, which all in all cost me tons... I could hire more people, i could grow my business.

Image the boom we would have if all those chains on small businesses were removed.
 
To actually answer your question, no Dr. Paul has not issued any progressive/positive policy solutions to alleviate poverty. He would tell you that only a true free market cures poverty, it just needs a chance to work without government interference. Of course, this is specifically speaking of the federal government. The states should be allowed to do whatever they want in regards to providing solutions to poverty.

True to a degree, but I would argue that abolishing the Fed and lessening inflation would work towards alleviating poverty.
 
yes to charity

Thank you all for your explanations. I also see that RP would SLOWLY phase out entitlement programs, so as not to leave people high and dry on short notice. I do think local, community, and individual charity is key. It's exciting to think how people might stand up for others in their community once the bureaucratic web is dismantled. I know I would be a lot more likely to give money to people if I didn't think "yeah, well they can just get it from the government. They probably don't really need my help" Plus I read another post somewhere about how local charity creates more incentive and personal accountability. I do hope that people and churches would stand up and fill that gap. Because I'm still not convinced that lower taxes, etc would be enough for many people who are severly disadvantaged.
 
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Strictly enforced anti-trust laws are the key to freeing the market

To actually answer your question, no Dr. Paul has not issued any progressive/positive policy solutions to alleviate poverty. He would tell you that only a true free market cures poverty, it just needs a chance to work without government interference. Of course, this is specifically speaking of the federal government. The states should be allowed to do whatever they want in regards to providing solutions to poverty.

"Let the invisible hand of the market take care of itself," say the corporate fatcats. The problem is that the dark hand of monopolies and cartels have enslaved the market, resulting in the control of fuel and grain supplies, hence the global hunger crisis we are now in. Instead of the self regulating market rule of "supply and demand," we have a market operating under the rule of "demand and supply," which allows the cartels to control the supply and dictate the demand and the market price that will result. That explains the $5/gallon gas (it's $8 in Germany)

The United States has the strictest anti-trust legislation in the world to ensure these cartels and monopolies do not hold the market hostage, but lobbyists and corporations pay politicians and legislators to look the other way. NAFTA should have addressed this, but in fact the opposite happened. If a country changes a law that cuts into a company's profit, that country is required to financially compensate the company for monies lost b/c of the law change.

For the free market to work, we need to stop corporations from boxing out the competition, and that requires tough anti-trust laws that are strictly enforced. Not enough people understand what needs to be done--they just know they're getting screwed and they don't like it.

Manufacturing jobs went to the third world because labor unions didn't demand a seat at the NAFTA table. You see, the union's pension funds are invested in these bloodsucking corporations, so they looked the other way when NAFTA was enacted. It was the union's own greed that resulted in labor going overseas. If NAFTA had a labor clause that penalized companies for outsourcing their labor, American workers wouldn't have lost their jobs.

Right now we're playing a game of Monopoly with the Banks, Big Oil, the automobile industry, Big Pharma, the Agricultural industry and many other cartels who are squeezing people to the point of losing their homes, their jobs, and even their lives as they slowly starve to death. Without straight arrows like Ron Paul to enforce the law and root out corruption, the market will never be free.
 
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Manufacturing jobs went to the third world because labor unions didn't demand a seat at the NAFTA table. You see, the union's pension funds are invested in these bloodsucking corporations, so they looked the other way when NAFTA was enacted. It was the union's own greed that resulted in labor going overseas. If NAFTA had a labor clause that penalized companies for outsourcing their labor, American workers wouldn't have lost their jobs.

A more liberty-based solution would have been to allow the free movement and operation of labor unions within the three nations under the agreement (prohibiting their interference in the elections of other nations of course). That way both sides would have equal movility and ability to pursue their aims.
 
One question I have, however, is whether or not he has a specific plan to alleviate poverty in America.

All this being said, however, I wonder if, aside from fixing many of the negative forces underway in this country affecting the poor,.

my guess would be work.....
it`s been my experience that hard work is the best cure for poverty.
 
i thought the idea was, that since there would be more people enjoying prosperity, there would be more who are willing to lend a honest,( nonpoorwashing) hand to those who need
it.
wasn't there a big food drive done by this group?
 
Manufacturing jobs went to the third world because labor unions didn't demand a seat at the NAFTA table. You see, the union's pension funds are invested in these bloodsucking corporations, so they looked the other way when NAFTA was enacted. It was the union's own greed that resulted in labor going overseas. If NAFTA had a labor clause that penalized companies for outsourcing their labor, American workers wouldn't have lost their jobs.

Not entirely accurate; besides, in the mean time, the solution you're suggesting is going to create an additional layer of bureaucracy to our government, which means higher taxes (which means less likely that businesses will want to build here). The real issue is somewhat complex; you have high taxes and high inflation that makes it impractical to keep manufacturing here, so companies will move to other countries to escape the tax burden. Another problem is that we subsidized other countries, which allows them to use our nearly worthless dollars against us (buying up our land, companies, etc), which...well, when they do, they're going to move as much as possible back home to their country. Of course, NAFTA generally benefits the poorer countries more than it benefits us, which is yet another reason why jobs flow out of our country. Lastly (and most importantly), is the Federal Reserve itself. Since the end of WWII, we've held the status of "world's reserve currency"...this bestows on us a great deal of little talked about economic power. First, we can influence other markets and put pressure on other countries because of our status (though it doesn't always work....Iraq and Iran are two good examples)...the other is our exportation of inflation. We can inflate our money supply by a very very large amount, then export it to other countries. This has the natural effect of making other country's currencies undervalued at best...of course, then we come in and use that country because it is now "cheap labor" because of our currency dominance.

NAFTA is an issue, but not the issue....and your solution will make a protectionist bureaucratic society, at best.

Right now we're playing a game of Monopoly with the Banks, Big Oil, the automobile industry, Big Pharma, the Agricultural industry and many other cartels who are squeezing people to the point of losing their homes, their jobs, and even their lives as they slowly starve to death. Without straight arrows like Ron Paul to enforce the law and root out corruption, the market will never be free.

while coercive monopolies (which are 95/100 times government created) do play a part in the whole scheme of things, the government plays an even bigger role...and the individual (I'll just call it the 'private sector') is a large part to blame too. The housing bubble is an excellent example; the Fed, not those companies, created the bubble, and the peopled rushed in to build, buy, and sell houses like crazy. While it is a moral hazard on the Fed's part, the private sector ultimately made the decision at the end of the day; many have chosen to build far more than than they can afford, and put everything on 'plastic' so to speak...well, eventually the bills come do, and when they do...if you can't pay, it's not the banks, or the government's fault (in this case), as you're the one who ultimately made the decision to go into debt. Yes, the bursting housing bubble is not, at all, a good thing for people, but when people make stupid investments and go far far into debt, then at the end of the day, it's their own fault.

The Food crisis is really complex too...ultimately though, again, it can be traced to the Fed...though the private sector is partially responsible....but still, the biggest thing playing a part in this particular instance is the weather itself; we've had an abnormally cold Spring, and crops that are normally planted by now are not.....A guy named Steve, who is well-connected with one of the world's largest food supplier, said that the supplier told him that basically there's little food left for this year, and that there will be no food by 2009 (of course, this is assuming we don't have some terrible disaster).

Now, there does exist the possibility that the government is controlling/influencing the weather, but I'm not going to say for certain...either way, things look bad for this year and next.
 
I am a firm Ron Paul supporter and agree with him on nearly everything, most specifically his stance on foreign policy and personal liberties. One question I have, however, is whether or not he has a specific plan to alleviate poverty in America.

I truly commend Dr. Paul's insistence on curtailing the corrupt influence of big business and big government alike, and believe this will go a long way in reversing the devastating gap between the rich and the poor. In addition, Dr. Paul wishes to cut back the War on Drugs, a policy that does more to attack the impoverished in our nation than quell the use of drugs. I've also heard Dr. Paul say that it would not be his first priority to attack the welfare apparatus, a view I appreciate.

All this being said, however, I wonder if, aside from fixing many of the negative forces underway in this country affecting the poor, Dr. Paul has any positive/progressive ideas as to how we might seek to rectify this situation? I will vote for Dr. Paul regardless, so please don't hesitate to answer as truthfully as possible.

I went to the poorest school in town. My parents didn't own a car until I was twelve and then it was a beat up old station wagon. My entire time under their roof they struggled to pay rent and sometimes, with 5 kids, we went hungry.

With all of that as my background let me say that I don't want any government hand outs. I only want the government to provide an environment where I can excel, that is an environment where it secures my rights and the rights of others. The best thing the government can do about poverty is simply letting people keep their own money. My family received much of it's best help from our church along with great instruction.

When you have a society where a man or woman is able to find whatever way possible to secure a living without government intrusion(as long as it respects the rights of others) then the poor will thrive and poverty will disappear as the middle class will become, once again, the predominant class in society.
 
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The best oak wood for making a piece of furniture does not come from the oak trees of the south that have easy winters, but from the oak trees of the north that face the harshest of circumstances and become stronger because of it.

Poverty breeds the world's greatest artists, scientists, business men and mathematicians. Depriving the world of poverty will deprive society of the greatest gemstones that glitter humanity's history.
 
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