Question about healthcare

FancyJules

Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2011
Messages
45
Hello, I am a 20 year old college student and I've been a libertarian and Ron Paul supporter for 5 years now. I have a question about healthcare. I don't think the government has the constitutional authority to mandate healthcare to anyone, but what about the costs of the uninsured? Don't we (as churches, charities, and taxpayers paying for emergency room care) bear the cost?

Some would say that if an uninsured person needs care and cannot afford it, that care should be denied, but the reality is that we do provide care for free. Even Ron Paul said that he never denied patients that were in need of serious care.

What is the economic solution in this case?
 
Don't we (as churches, charities, and taxpayers paying for emergency room care) bear the cost?

You are using we in several different ways here. Sure, if taxpayers pay, as they do now, it's a "we". But if a church pays voluntarily, it's not a "we" because no one is forced to pay. It's voluntary activity done by a private organization. Also, as soon as the service is collectivized and guaranteed, the price rockets up (the hospital can charge whatever it wants... cause usually an insurance company pays).

"but the reality is that we do provide care for free. "

Because of current government laws.

Even Ron Paul said that he never denied patients that were in need of serious care.

Sure, but that didn't make "we" pay. The taxpayer didn't pay - the service was just done for free, RP didn't turn around and bill the city and taxpayers.

Read all the articles on Mises, for example:

http://mises.org/daily/3699
http://mises.org/daily/4719
http://mises.org/daily/3708

The Market for Free Riders?

To argue that the market discards those it regards as undesirable is to both ignore the prevalence of private charity and deny the existence of the entire public-relations industry. Indeed, setting socialist doctrines aside, we can see that affectionate treatment of the poor and downtrodden is actually a very profitable endeavor.

In every market, firms of all sizes expend resources to maintain a positive public image. There are few actions better received by a community than healing and treating their vulnerable and disabled at a discounted or zero price. As such, it is absolutely foolish to believe that hospitals would not take in such customers for treatment.

In fact, if we examine the nature of prices and income differentials closely, we arrive at another instance of destructive government intervention. Price discrimination of almost every form is illegal in almost every market, and health care is certainly no exception.

Price discrimination may feel unfair, but if allowed by law it can lead to much more efficient market outcomes and higher market quantities of all goods and services. Using price discrimination, hospitals would be free to provide additional and cheaper services to low-income consumers without decreasing the price for high-income consumers.

Price discrimination would benefit the hospitals as well, because they would not only increase the quantity of services they perform and add potentially loyal new customers, but would also be able to increase the price of services to their high-income patients without losing their business.

Viewing the converse of this market outcome, then, we can observe that laws against price-fixing necessarily decrease quantities of goods and services, and squeeze marginal consumers out of the market. In the health care market, this means that those who are most in need of low-cost care are forced out of the market in the name of social justice.

In contemplating competition between medical service providers, we can deduce that the market will indeed treat people who are now free riders with dignity, but that those consumers will no longer actually be free riding on others. Instead, they will provide a valuable good to society — namely, the satisfaction that comes with supporting others in their time of need. While it may seem strange to think of this as an economic good, it certainly is, as evidenced by consumers' willingness to forgo other forms of consumption in favor of charity.

While caring for these patients would still redistribute costs to other consumers, it would do so only to the extent that these paying consumers would tolerate it by continuing to purchase care and services. That is to say that consumers' choices between competing hospitals' services would, just as in any market, force those hospitals to provide equilibrium quantities of charitable care.

This efficient market quantity would therefore be determined by the charitable inclinations of insured and higher-income patients. And in a truly libertarian market, which would lack taxes, we can say that these individuals would inarguably be more giving of their own income.

Perhaps the best feature of the free-market process in a libertarian health market is that it would allocate charitable funds to their best use. In our emergency services case, this axiom of market behavior implies that hospitals will spend their charity budgets on the most destitute and impoverished patients.


Whereas government funds are allocated according to political cronyism and electoral opportunism, free-market hospitals will always attempt to maximize the benefit to their public image — nothing more than profit maximization — by providing for those patients who are most in need.
 
Last edited:
TANSTAAFL.

Eventually, someone pays. But in a free market, these costs are borne on a case by case basis. Thereby, reducing the incentive for people to rely on someone else to bear these costs.

For example, Dr. Paul had a lucrative practice so he could afford to treat some patients for very little or even for free. For them. It cost Dr. Paul time that he could have been spending on other paying customers. But this was at his discretion. If it took too much of his time, he'd stop. But if he put up a sign saying he'd treat every patient for free no matter what, there'd be a line at his door and he'd never have time to actually make money.
 
Yes, but those volunteers and people willing to provide healthcare for free (like Dr. Paul) only did so because they felt morally compelled to because there were people that were uninsured. It was still a cost to them even if they did so voluntarily. If everyone were insured, wouldn't we eliminate that cost? I understand that moral hazard exists with insurance.
 
prices go up when the people using the services don't have to pay the cost. With charity providing for the poor who can't, there is still concern about cost, to provide for the greatest number, and EVERYONE else has price sensitivity. Medicare is insolvent going forward because prices went up, driven hugely by the lack of price sensitivity of those using the 'free' services.

Medicare is a special case because it is 'paid for' through payments which were NOT voluntary, but if only the old had 'free' medical care, prices would be much lower than they are now. Now over 50% I believe have some government health program, and even the managed care insurance programs deaden the sensitivity to the cost, you pay it a little at a time, not all at once as you need it.

so more money covers less care under a government system.

And costs aren't 'elimated' when govt pays for them, because they take it from us INVOLUNTARILY in that case. And their cronies such as the big pharma boondoggle on drugs benefit hugely, at our expense. The only way to stop crony capitalist vultures from circling our public funds is to make the size of public funds smaller, and the allocation and payment of those funds transparent.
 
Last edited:
Health Status Insurance is a possible solution. It's basically insurance for insurance. So if you have an expensive procedure, your health-status insurance will cover the increase in premiums, from what I understand. It can't exist in the market today because of the price controls on premiums as well as the preferential tax treatment employer group insurance receives. Plus it would probably require the government to frontload some money to pay for those who already have pre-existing conditions.


But in regards to people needing care who can't afford it, we have a responsibility as individuals to help others in need. It's immoral for us to ignore people asking for help. However, the government is twice as immoral.

Where's the guarantee that government will always provide the right amount of care to people? There is no guarantee. A lot of people think the government is this unbiased "machine" that will follow the instructions passed by Congress and the President. The fact is, the government is just a group of people, just like a charity is a group of people. They're both people that can make bad decisions. There difference though is a charity is motivated to help others and a government is motivated to maintain power.

The government is killing our culture of giving. Like Paul says, it's the culture that needs to change, not more laws. If we had a culture where individuals had no problem giving away 10% of their income to help others in need, we would be a lot better off. But there's less incentive to give when you think "the government will do it".
 
"prices go up when the people using the services don't have to pay the cost."

Yep. As more and more of the population moved into Medicare and away from paying their own damned bills, prices went up. Totally predictable, and yet the liberals blame corporate greed instead of government subsidies.
 
"prices go up when the people using the services don't have to pay the cost."

Yep. As more and more of the population moved into Medicare and away from paying their own damned bills, prices went up. Totally predictable, and yet the liberals blame corporate greed instead of government subsidies.

it isn't just medicare. Now child state programs go up to a family income of $80,000 in some states, for example. One way and another over 50% as of about a year ago, were on some government subsidized (feeling free) plan. Of COURSE health care costs spiral sharply upwards. And AS A RESULT so do our unfunded obligations.
 
You are using we in several different ways here. Sure, if taxpayers pay, as they do now, it's a "we". But if a church pays voluntarily, it's not a "we" because no one is forced to pay. It's voluntary activity done by a private organization. Also, as soon as the service is collectivized and guaranteed, the price rockets up (the hospital can charge whatever it wants... cause usually an insurance company pays).



Because of current government laws.



Sure, but that didn't make "we" pay. The taxpayer didn't pay - the service was just done for free, RP didn't turn around and bill the city and taxpayers.

Read all the articles on Mises, for example:

http://mises.org/daily/3699
http://mises.org/daily/4719
http://mises.org/daily/3708

The "we" he's talking about is the customers of that hospital. If you speak to anyone with first hand in the healthcare industry, they'll tell you that one of the reasons the cost of healthcare is so high is because they have to make up for uninsured patients tho literally can't pay their bills.
 
You also have to look at the free market in the insurance industry. Auto insurance works and costs are relatively low because insurance companies are allowed to compete across state lines. As it is now we have a monopoly of "insurance" companies in the form of PPOs and HMOs. Under the Nixon, the HMO act of 1972 brought government and the corporations in bed together. This is when the prices went up and basically put a majority of the charity based hospitals out of business. With deregulation more insurance companies will emerge thus giving competition forcing the hospitals to bring the prices down. Like Ron Paul says, when you have one or a few payers the prices will go up. When you have so many students going after federal education loans the prices go up because the money was easy. You get the government out of things and away from the patient doctor relationship and you will see doctors and hospitals competing for patients. It will allow you to contract individually with your local hospital or your doctor.

Here is how I would like to see it. I can contract a cash rate with my doctor group, or even pay them monthly for basic coverage. Then I would like to purchase a major medical policy that has a cap on it, say 500K. That would cover catastrophic accidents and so. Under this plan you can also purchase higher coverage based on what you think your needs would be.
 
The "we" he's talking about is the customers of that hospital. If you speak to anyone with first hand in the healthcare industry, they'll tell you that one of the reasons the cost of healthcare is so high is because they have to make up for uninsured patients tho literally can't pay their bills.

Exactly!

If hospitals care for people that are uninsured and cannot afford to pay, they will push those costs on people that do pay. WE (the insured and the responsible) assume those costs.

I understand that "prices go up when the people using the services don't have to pay the cost."

But our costs also go up because of all those people who are not responsible for their health and don't purchase insurance.

It is BECAUSE of our moral obligation to care for those in need that people are willing to go uninsured. They know they can get away with (to some extent) not buying insurance but still getting care.
 
Yes, but those volunteers and people willing to provide healthcare for free (like Dr. Paul) only did so because they felt morally compelled to because there were people that were uninsured. It was still a cost to them even if they did so voluntarily. If everyone were insured, wouldn't we eliminate that cost? I understand that moral hazard exists with insurance.

Voluntary is HUGE, setting aside how a mandate can effect the base cost of a service (others seem to be addressing that) as soon as you mandate (or prohibit for that matter) something you increase the cost as a matter of course. You must spend enforcement resources (man hours, bureaucratic etc) on whatever you are mandating/prohibiting. Do this often enough, or broadly enough and you must expand the infrastructure supporting those resources as well which magnifies the costs still further. Each instance also builds in the potential for even more expansion as departments/agencies are established to review the eligibility/culpability of various individuals under the law. All of which tends to be a self perpetuating process resulting in a spiraling increase of costs.

And all of the above is without commenting on the social costs of depriving individuals of their agency, or the increased base cost others have been talking about.

Here's a quick visual aid addressing one aspect of what I'm talking about.
wbot_taxcodegrowth_3_2.jpg
 
Yes, but those volunteers and people willing to provide healthcare for free (like Dr. Paul) only did so because they felt morally compelled to because there were people that were uninsured. It was still a cost to them even if they did so voluntarily. If everyone were insured, wouldn't we eliminate that cost? I understand that moral hazard exists with insurance.

Costs are such a basic thing, but can really become obscure. :) As others have pointed out, for costs that the government does not create, Government interaction with the populace can only be summarized as redistribution of aforementioned costs. Costs cannot be eliminated unless they never occur. (ie. Federal government effectively prohibiting health care)
 
Exactly!

If hospitals care for people that are uninsured and cannot afford to pay, they will push those costs on people that do pay. WE (the insured and the responsible) assume those costs.

I understand that "prices go up when the people using the services don't have to pay the cost."

But our costs also go up because of all those people who are not responsible for their health and don't purchase insurance.

It is BECAUSE of our moral obligation to care for those in need that people are willing to go uninsured. They know they can get away with (to some extent) not buying insurance but still getting care.

but if those people are in the minority from social norms of people paying and not leeching the prices don't go up and the cost is less in real terms than if they were 'entitled to be paid for' and no one who had control over spending cared how much it cost.

the cost doesn't go away because you pay it through taxes with an overhead charge (not to mention cronyism doubling the cost) to government. It just becomes even more, with the lack of cost sensitivity ON TOP of that.
 
Last edited:
Exactly!

If hospitals care for people that are uninsured and cannot afford to pay, they will push those costs on people that do pay. WE (the insured and the responsible) assume those costs.

I understand that "prices go up when the people using the services don't have to pay the cost."

But our costs also go up because of all those people who are not responsible for their health and don't purchase insurance.

It is BECAUSE of our moral obligation to care for those in need that people are willing to go uninsured. They know they can get away with (to some extent) not buying insurance but still getting care.

And the bottom line is, if people can get the gov't or sliding scale or medicaid or medicare, they are going to take it. I work in an industry where we are all self employed contractors. I'd say 50% of the people I work with do not have insurance, saying they cannot afford it. First, we make a good living. Second, they spend probably 4X the cost of insurance for a month in two or three nights at a bar. Personal responsibility is largely lost on the up and coming generation. (Mostly people in 20s and 30s).
 
Yes, but those volunteers and people willing to provide healthcare for free (like Dr. Paul) only did so because they felt morally compelled to because there were people that were uninsured. It was still a cost to them even if they did so voluntarily. If everyone were insured, wouldn't we eliminate that cost? I understand that moral hazard exists with insurance.

It would not eliminate the cost. It would merely push, at gunpoint, the cost on to people that never agreed to pay it, and balloon the overall costs because of moral hazzard. Ron Paul chose to treat people for free. The Catholic Hospital that he sometimes worked at chose to forgo profits and instead serve the poor as Christ preached, and the doctors who worked there took lower paychecks than they could have elsewhere because they believed in and chose to further that mission.
 
And the bottom line is, if people can get the gov't or sliding scale or medicaid or medicare, they are going to take it. I work in an industry where we are all self employed contractors. I'd say 50% of the people I work with do not have insurance, saying they cannot afford it. First, we make a good living. Second, they spend probably 4X the cost of insurance for a month in two or three nights at a bar. Personal responsibility is largely lost on the up and coming generation. (Mostly people in 20s and 30s).

It's not all of us of course. Both my fiancee and I are both full time students. The first thing I do every Spring semester is renew are medical insurance coverage. Its always been my first priority. But I agree with you, personal responsibility has been lost, and the idea that government will always provide for an individual is becoming increasingly difficult to comprehend. Does no one remember Katrina?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top