Problem: Fiat Money vs. Fractional Reserve Banking

Throwback280s

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I have been a big supporter of Ron Paul's plans to challenge the Federal Reserve's control over our nation. I was also big into his call for a dual currency system in which individuals could deal in gold standard-based currency if they so wished.

However, I watched the excellent film The Money Masters and it's caused me to rethink my position on this issue and question Ron Paul's proposed solution for this problem.

Ron Paul often criticizes fiat currency, paper money created out of thin air. He argues that the eventual goal would be to move towards a hard money system such as the gold standard. The Money Masters argument agrees with the need to abolish the Federal Reserve, get out of the IMF, World Bank, and BIS. And they also criticize a private central bank. However, the film contends that fiat currency is not the ultimate problem facing our nation's economic woes. It is fractional reserve banking (ex. banks loaning out $10,000 based on $1,000 in reserves it has).

The film argues that a Gold Standard is not the way to solve the monetary crisis. Apparently, the IMF and other central banks own approx. 2/3rds of the world's gold supply. By returning to the gold standard at this time, we would be at the mercy and manipulation of these bankers. Also, the film shows that Ben Franklin and other founding fathers felt that the Revolutionary War was fought in part over Great Britain forcing the colonies onto a gold standard and then hoarding their gold through taxation. Instead, the fiat currency the colonies used previously had apparently been a prosperous system.

Rather than adopt a gold standard, the key is to return power of issuing money away from a private bank and back to the US Treasury. The US Treasury notes would be printed interest free and would coincide with a gradual phasing out of fractional reserve banking in the nation's banks.
Here's a summary of the proposed solution put forth by the film:
Monetary Reform Act

By way of conclusion, the film presents an option for a different kind of monetary policy for the United States, the Monetary Reform Act. The film suggests that fractional-reserve banking and the Federal Reserve System be abolished in favor of 100% reserve banking. These reserves would come from the government, which would issue non-interest generating money to repay the public debt to the banks. This would happen over a gradual period of one year. As the government repaid its debt, the banks would be required to hold the government's new money as reserves and the reserve rate would slowly be increased to 100%. Thus, there would be no inflation or imbalance in the amount of money in circulation. The issuing of new money would then be controlled. In order to prevent inflation, issuance would be according to population statistics. After the public debt was repaid, money that would previously have been interest on the debt would be distributed by the government as a tax refund, leading to the abolition of income tax.

The film shows that Lincoln's use of this US Treasury Greenback system was an extremely successful and prosperous model. Whereas gold standard-based economies have consistently been manipulated by world banking powers.

I would like to see a detailed rebuttal of this alternative solution to the Federal Reserve if it exists. Any other discussion of various points, strengths and weaknesses, of both approaches would be great.

It seems as if the dual currency proposal Ron Paul wants to offer is a simple bandaid. I am a firm believer in gold and encourage everyone I know to invest in it. But I'm wary of a gold standard with the realization that private bankers have consolidated vast portions of it and can manipulate the value of it as well.

Sometimes I wonder if free market proponents of a gold standard, while they are absolutely courageous and right about exposing the dangers of our Federal Reserve private bank, are acting more in their own self-interest in the desire to remedy the situation with a gold standard. Many of them often heavily invest in the gold market.

I feel like a sound fiat currency issued by the Treasury Dept as the Constitution requires sounds like the better alternative.
 
If you want a good analysis, check out my blog. I'm not going to repost all the details here.

Leave a comment on my blog or PM me if you still have questions after reading it.
 
I like Money Masters and found its explanation of the money creation system very educational, however I do not necessarily agree with their conclusions.

A strict Rothbardian would argue that all government supplied money (whether fiat or commodity based) will lead to the State to becoming more oppressive over time. There are certainly convincing arguments to support such a view. Fiat money is especially prone to such abuse.

In fact, one of the primary reasons given for the Fed not being fully under government control is precisely due to concerns that money creation power will otherwise be under undue influence of the political process.

Anyway to go back to Rothbard, if we are to follow what he prescribes, what we should actually have is 'privately minted' money. But if you look at the Fed, it IS actually quasi-private money created by a cartel of bankers! It is actually a balance between money controlled by 'private' interests versus money controlled by the supposedly public interest.
 
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In fact, one of the primary reasons given for the Fed not being fully under government control is precisely due to concerns that money creation power will otherwise be under undue influence of the political process.

Anyway to go back to Rothbard, if we are to follow what he prescribes, what we should actually have is 'privately minted' money. But if you look at the Fed, it IS actually quasi-private money created by a cartel of bankers! It is actually a balance between money controlled by 'private' interests versus money controlled by the supposedly public interest.

The problem with having the Federal Reserve under the control of bankers instead of the government is that the bankers will manipulate policy for their own benefit.

Let's try this in other industries.

A handful of oil executives should get together and decide what the price of oil is.

A handful of doctors should get together and decide how much health care should cost. (The AMA already does this, by restricting the supply of doctors.)

A handful of auto executives should get together and decide how much a car should cost.

All of the above would be decried as an outrage, but when you say:

A group of bankers should get together and decide how much money should cost. (inflation is the price of money)

For some reason, putting control of the money in the hands of bankers is sound policy.
 
I think the key is to allow a free market of currencies and to allow anybody to create a bank.

If made aware of the problem of fractional reserve banking then people would probably steer clear of banks who use fractional reserve banking. Or else if people continued to accept fractional reserve banking then you are free to start your own bank and create money out of nothing by giving out unbacked IOUs (which is what fractional reserve banking is all about).
 
The problem with having the Federal Reserve under the control of bankers instead of the government is that the bankers will manipulate policy for their own benefit.
True, but the problem with having the Federal Reserve under the control of government is that it will be under control of the government (or generally, the party in power... or both... they're in collusion anyways aren't they??) !

It all boils down to who you trust more, statists or free-marketers (which always tends to agglomerate into cartels and monopolies anyway)?

The people calling for 'free market' money do not understand that we already did come from such an era. It was found to have led to abuses which ended up with massive failed banks and calls for greater state control of money. On the other hand, the astute knew enough not to cede full control of money to the political process either, and thus the compromise known as the Fed was born.

Whether the mechanisms governing how the Fed operates were wisely chosen or not is admittedly a matter of great debate. Certainly, you hear Ron Paul complaining that Congress fails to exercise its right *and* duty of oversight over the Fed adequately. The solution could just be to educate and wake up members of Congress into doing their jobs.

Or, if RP gets elected and can indeed manage it, bust up all the cartels and level the playing field again. Do a Reagan again, but even more pervasively and deeply.
The Fed arose as a reaction to some need in the past, and that situation must be understood otherwise you risk giving rise to the same environment again. Relying on "evil intentions and conspiracies" as motivations behind its creation is quite naive and won't really help to explain anything.


I provided the link below which essentially outlines the same structure of international money that the Rotschilds conspiracy theorists espouse:

http://www.antiscia.com/wizardsofmoney

The site, unsurprisingly, lambastes it with equal intensity. While it doesn't fall into the same trap of presenting some dubious history, you can can see that it also tries to promote its own agenda, a left-leaning one at that.

A lot of people now understand the inbuilt-biases of the global money structure but few people really know what to replace it with. They blame it for everything from income inequality to environmental destruction, but neglect to realize that we are all complicit with it, and that in fact, we can't live or function with it. Despite its flaws that we are now beginning to see, it is actually quite a marvelous and precision creation and evolutionarily speaking, fit enough to replace all previous systems and -isms we have been living under.
 
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"It all boils down to who you trust more, statists or free-marketers (which always tends to agglomerate into cartels and monopolies anyway)?"

Gov't protection of corporations in the guise of "regulation" creates the opportunity of cartels and monopolies. Remove gov't protection and you get a free market - the best price and product wins.
 
"It all boils down to who you trust more, statists or free-marketers (which always tends to agglomerate into cartels and monopolies anyway)?"

Gov't protection of corporations in the guise of "regulation" creates the opportunity of cartels and monopolies. Remove gov't protection and you get a free market - the best price and product wins.
Someone has to explain how and why government be accused of coddling cartels (via subsidies) but at the same time be the only entity acknowledged to have authority enough to break up monopolies (via regulation) ?

Rothbard I recall, says that it is ok for monopolies to arise (in a theoretically completely free market) and that they are not a worry. He has to of course, because without government, there is no other force that can break up any concentration of power that might arise in free enterprise. Except the competition, of course, but as we have seen, it is possible for a handful of suppliers to collude to form a cartel...

I submit that the libertarian belief that free markets will bring the most prosperity is ultimately more an article of faith than a 100% rationally defensible one. However, I do happen to share that faith to a good degree.

I have to state that my questioning of the correctness of libertarian economic assumptions has little to do with whether or not I think RP is a good candidate. To me, he is far and away the best candidate because he exhibits remarkable humility, intelligence and compassion, and I think those qualities of his are sufficient to override any ideological inflexibility. I'm also quite convinced that Ron Paul does not confuse principledness with inflexibility.
 
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How many times are you going to post the same BS contrary to Dr. Paul's message?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=41404

Troll?:(
Kindly explain how and why you consider what I posted as BS.

I am just trying to think for myself instead of waiting to be spoonfed ideas and conclusions. I'd certainly be interested in hearing explanations of how my reasoning is wrong.

Calling it BS without explaining why just means you subscribe to dogma.
 
The people calling for 'free market' money do not understand that we already did come from such an era. It was found to have led to abuses which ended up with massive failed banks and calls for greater state control of money.

I doubt the money markets were really free then, but probably controlled by a banking cartel.

The key is to allow anybody to open a bank with few, if any, hurdles.

Computers and the Internet would make it really easy nowadays to start a bank, and it would be much harder to maintain a money cartel due to the free flow of information.
 
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I'm with bradley in calling jon_perez a troll.

Jon_perez is an expert in trollspeak. In another thread, you said "If you advocate for a gold standard, you undermine your own credibility". That's trollspeak.

The conclusion that "free markets lead to monopolies" is FALSE. False-free markets lead to monopolies. The market in the USA is NOT A FREE MARKET.

I'm not expecting to convince jon_perez. I'm writing for the other people who might read this thread, so they aren't fooled by trolls.
 
The problem in the 1890s is that the banking industry was dominated by a few large banks that acted as a cartel. Regulation of banking restricted the ability of small banks to compete with the large banks.

There *NEVER* was true unregulated free banking in the USA.
 
Think about the reality of the statement "gold standard." It implies that the government sets standards of value based upon gold. We just used that bad word. You know... government.

Yes, it is true. Fractional reserve banking is a form of fraudulent activity the way it is practiced now. My belief is simply that it works as a form of investment, like the stock market or bonds. If I buy a corporate bond, there is no guarantee that I'm getting my money back. We treat fractional reserve banking like a guarantee. In fact, in the form of CDs, accounts are insured up to $100,000. In reality, it is an investment like any other which entails risk. Our laws don't reflect the reality though.

Now, legal tender laws existed back then and applied to the currency we used. Paul is for a very old idea, and a very good one. Money should compete the same way everything else does. In other words, gold isn't guaranteed in value by the government, or required for tax payments.

It simply competes along with fiat currencies, and other kinds commodities.

Because at the end of the day folks, in a free market, all everyone is doing is simply trading things. Labor, resources, and capital. The common lubricants of the economy (ie, it's money) should be just as subject to competition as anything else.

Gold has often been a good "lubricant" (ie a method of conveniently trading valuable products and services), but so has silver, sea shells, rare woods, etc. etc. etc.

If gold were too manipulated, we would switch to something else of value.

The problem is manipulation, and force. Just as it always is.
 
Actually, one of the reasons the gold standard "didn't work" was that, in 1789, the European central banks had a near-monopoly on the worldwide gold supply. It was like the new US government handed the keys to their monetary system to the European central banks.

People were FORCED to use gold as money. Regulation of banking made it hard to break this monopoly.

Before 1913, a lot of the world gold supply started slipping out of the control of the European central banks. They managed to get the Federal Reserve created to corrupt the gold standard.
 
Someone also explain to me how some Ron Paulites could be so enamored of the gold standard, when in the 1890s, it was accused to be as much a tool of financiers back then as the fiat money system of today is accused to be:

http://www.webofdebt.com/excerpts/chapter-1.php

Bimetalist inflationist propaganda. Instead of such shallow analyses, why not read actual books with substance?

Or at least a crib sheet?
http://www.auburn.edu/~garriro/lselect.ppt

http://www.mises.org/books/puretheory.pdf

http://www.mises.org/books/pricesproduction.pdf

http://www.mises.org/books/monetarytheory.pdf

Plus Mises' The Theory of Money and Credit linked in my signature.
 
People were FORCED to use gold as money. Regulation of banking made it hard to break this monopoly.
So what do you call a "gold standard", if not forcing people to use only gold as money???
 
I doubt the money markets were really free then, but probably controlled by a banking cartel.
Doesn't free market necessarily imply that participants are free to collude?

If, on the other hand, you say that you will enact regulations to prevent cartels and monopolies from arising then that would count as a statist/socialist move, which is precisely the bane of libertarian/laissez faire thinking. It is also going to take some very astute legislation to define what counts as cartel-like/monopolistic behaviour.

According to Rothbard's analyses though, in a truly free market without government subsidies, a so-called monopoly would not prove to be harmful. I don't quite understand the analysis (yet), but like I have mentioned before, my personal inclinations favor a more laissez faire system over a socialist one so I'm willing to take it more or less on faith for now.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here...
 
Bimetalist inflationist propaganda. Instead of such shallow analyses, why not read actual books with substance?
By resorting to the term "bimetallist inflationist propaganda", are you saying you don't believe in a gold+silver standard at all, and that you believe in a gold only standard?

What is your take on commodity money then? Wouldn't the definition of commodity money expand to include not only silver but any other commodity found acceptable?

By that logic, if bimetallism were inflationary, then wouldn't a multi-commodity standard be even more inflationary?
 
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