Presbyterian Assembly: Gay Marriage Is Christian

[heavenlyboy34]

It is eerie how people seize on the same parts of what I posted. Everything's a guideline --- including destroying furniture someone impure has sat on --- all for health (except as I pointed out apparently having a female baby is even more unclean than having a male one; no one addressed that).


... said by the same person as ...



mmkay.

Again, these people having an utterly weird view of gay marriage being inherently Christian is not likely to win that church more members than it loses, and it certainly doesn't have a whole lot of backing as far as Biblical reference and Christian doctrine, but it doesn't harm me any more than other churches spewing plenty of other things I do not agree with. All the zealots ever get is a series of backfires. The zealots du jour are the "marriage equality" zealots who are so obsessed with begging Government to regulate them that they don't realize how stupid that sounds.

Yes, this is a problematic thing. It's quite a lot like Scholasticism. IMO, it fails for similar reasons. (impracticality, overemphasis on "works" and "law", etc)

 

[William Tell]

The will of God according to who?

According to the Bible.

 

[Terry1]

The will of God according to who? Presbyterians also claim to teach the will of God.

Words are defined by the way they are used by people. If enough people used 'surgeon' to describe someone who works with wood, then the word 'surgeon' would simply have another meaning. 'Christian' already has zillions of meanings.

That may fly in the secular humanist world where they can claim nothing means what it says and everything is open to redefinition, but that can't be the case where God and His word are concerned. Romans chapter 1 is more than clear on where God stands with certain sins--homosexuality being amongst them.

I'll quote it again in case you missed it before.

Romans 1:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:


Any church---and I do mean any real and true church that claims to be a Christian church would never-ever-ever place their stamp of approval upon the above by promoting and teaching the very things God hates and says are worthy of death. Let them do whatever they want---claim whatever doctrine they choose, but to call it "Godly" and to promote it through their church is nothing more or less than a total abomination to God.

Why do they want to hijack Christianity and then promote the works of satan? No true Christian church promotes and encourages sinful behavior.

Presbyterians hierarchy are Calvinist for the most part--so this really doesn't surprise me coming from this religious organization. But they really need to change their religious status to "non Christian"--that's all I'm saying because it's more appropriate. The Presbyterians have already crossed that line that places them outside of the realm of Gods grace IMO--this simply confirms it even more.

The word of God promotes marriage between men and women and says anything else is ungodly. That's what Christianity is--so why would anyone want to subscribe to something they didn't agree with and then try to change who God is and what He says is His will for mankind? If they want to go to heaven--then live the way God told us to--pretty plain and simple. Do they foolishly believe that because their church will allow and promote something that God will accept that? That's how crazy and whacko the church of four walls has become--thinking they can shove their lifestyles down Gods throat so He'll have to let them enter the kingdom of heaven. Not going to happen.

 

[Crashland]

That may fly in the secular humanist world where they can claim nothing means what it says and everything is open to redefinition, but that can't be the case where God and His word are concerned. Romans chapter 1 is more than clear on where God stands with certain sins--homosexuality being amongst them.

I'll quote it again in case you missed it before.

Romans 1:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:


Any church---and I do mean any real and true church that claims to be a Christian church would never-ever-ever place their stamp of approval upon the above by promoting and teaching the very things God hates and says are worthy of death. Let them do whatever they want---claim whatever doctrine they choose, but to call it "Godly" and to promote it through their church is nothing more or less than a total abomination to God.

Why do they want to hijack Christianity and then promote the works of satan? No true Christian church promotes and encourages sinful behavior.

Presbyterians hierarchy are Calvinist for the most part--so this really doesn't surprise me coming from this religious organization. But they really need to change their religious status to "non Christian"--that's all I'm saying because it's more appropriate. The Presbyterians have already crossed that line that places them outside of the realm of Gods grace IMO--this simply confirms it even more.

It seems to me that nearly every denomination of Christianity likes to ignore certain parts of the Bible and elevate others (see: threads here on the eucharist, predestination and free will). Presbyterians are no different.

 

[Scrapmo]

I would like to make the clarification that the assembly in question is PCUSA, which has always taken a liberal interpretation of the Bible, and in no way represents the views of most Presbyterie. I keep seeing people make the error that this particular governing body represents all Presbyterian churches. I am not Presbyterian, but I know quite a few who disagree with PCUSA on most issues.

 

[Terry1]

It seems to me that nearly every denomination of Christianity likes to ignore certain parts of the Bible and elevate others (see: threads here on the eucharist, predestination and free will). Presbyterians are no different.

God is going to sort them all out--you take that to the bank. God knows who belongs to Him and who doesn't. Just because the world has done exactly what God said they would do with His word doesn't dilute His word or the truth in it one bit. They can twist it, pervert it, corrupt it and attempt to change His glory and creation into corruptible things--God has it all covered and knows the heart and mind of every single person alive on this earth. It's all going to be sorted out and every man judged by God according to their deeds on judgment day--it's coming--I can promise you that.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I understand that thinking, but it seems like cherrypicking. It actually states that societies have fallen because people had sex with the wrong people (no, not just "as with a woman," but as any one of those behaviors listed). I struggle to think of a society that was perfect economically and politically and that waged no unjust wars, treated its people fairly from poorest to richest, but disintegrated because of not conforming to the list of allowable sexual practices.

If this particular church wants to dole out ceremonies, there will be a backlash. I would be far more wary of being married to another woman in a church that is pushing back against every other church to get my ceremony done, than just having a ceremony in a back yard somewhere in front of family and friends. God is everywhere. I don't need any portion of a union to be devoted to giving others the finger, which seems like what a lot of these "gay marriage rights" activists are going for. I think the church stands to lose many more patrons than it will temporarily gain. That is the market at work, and one would hope that's what happens.

Depends on your worldview. If you consider Christ to be fully God and fully man, then we can accept what he said as authoritative-even when it contradicts the OT. If not, you run into a lot of things that are contradictory. (one of the problems with Protestantism and non-denominationalism, but that's for another thread)

 

[MelissaWV]

Depends on your worldview. If you consider Christ to be fully God and fully man, then we can accept what he said as authoritative-even when it contradicts the OT. If not, you run into a lot of things that are contradictory. (one of the problems with Protestantism and non-denominationalism, but that's for another thread)

I don't know if you're deliberately misunderstanding me or not. My problem is with the people who say "well the parts of Leviticus I find outdated are outdated... but this one line about lying with a man as with a woman... that has not changed at all ever for any reason." Yes, that's cherry-picking.

 

[acptulsa]

I don't know if you're deliberately misunderstanding me or not. My problem is with the people who say "well the parts of Leviticus I find outdated are outdated... but this one line about lying with a man as with a woman... that has not changed at all ever for any reason." Yes, that's cherry-picking.

Yes. But, you know, when all else fails one can always count on Paul's letter to the fledgeling church in Rome.

 

[Southron]

I would like to make the clarification that the assembly in question is PCUSA, which has always taken a liberal interpretation of the Bible, and in no way represents the views of most Presbyterie. I keep seeing people make the error that this particular governing body represents all Presbyterian churches. I am not Presbyterian, but I know quite a few who disagree with PCUSA on most issues.

Apparently, the PCA takes a more biblical approach to homosexuality.

"Homosexual practice is sin. The Bible teaches that all particular sins flow from our rebellious disposition of heart. Just as with any other sin, the PCA deals with people in a pastoral way, seeking to transform their lifestyle through the power of the gospel as applied by the Holy Spirit. Hence, in condemning homosexual practice we claim no self-righteousness, but recognize that any and all sin is equally heinous in the sight of a holy God."

 

[William Tell]

I assume the Reformed Presbyterian Church still holds traditional views.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I don't know if you're deliberately misunderstanding me or not. My problem is with the people who say "well the parts of Leviticus I find outdated are outdated... but this one line about lying with a man as with a woman... that has not changed at all ever for any reason." Yes, that's cherry-picking.

I'm not. I take it back. :o Sorry for my webbernet communications fail. ~hugs~

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Yes. But, you know, when all else fails one can always count on Paul's letter to the fledgeling church in Rome.

Beg yer pardon? Not sure how one can always do this. Is that a joke/sarc I'm not getting? thnx.

 

[robert68]

.
.
Humans created “Christianity”, humans will continue to define it.

 

[acptulsa]

.
.
Humans created “Christianity”, humans will continue to define it.

The part that gets me is the 'words of Peter = words of Jesus' part. Even if we assume that Peter was inspired--even if we assume the Bible is infallible from start to finish, and not one word of Peter's has been mistranslated--Peter was still human and Jesus is still God. Wherever Jesus contradicts Peter (or would that be vice versa?) how can anyone listen to Peter and ignore Jesus?

On the judgement day, those who helped out their fellow humans will be counted as the sheep and those who didn't will be counted as the goats. There is no other group. Jesus was not ambiguous about that. Not even a little bit.

Beg yer pardon? Not sure how one can always do this. Is that a joke/sarc I'm not getting? thnx.

You missed all those threads where we determined that S_F had ripped everything out of his Bible but the book of Romans?

In light of the evidence in the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, I think the most important things our churches can help us learn are how to get our heads out of our own asses, and how not to relish the fact that some people won't enter the Kingdom of God.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

You missed all those threads where we determined that S_F had ripped everything out of his Bible but the book of Romans?

In light of the evidence in the twenty-fifth chapter of Matthew, I think the most important things our churches can help us learn are how to get our heads out of our own asses, and how not to relish the fact that some people won't enter the Kingdom of God.

O goodness, I do remember that now that you mention it! Quite the forum melodrama that discussion turned out to be.

 

[TER]

Yes, the More Light faction...

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The Light of God has been revealed, and gay marriage is not part of it. Never was, and never will be, even though some consider themselves Christians living active lives in habitual serious sin. Such a distortion of the faith is a modern heresy and never in the history of Christianity was such a practice taught or accepted. Yet somehow these such have 'more light' than our fathers before us?

It is a modern gnostic heresy, 100% and 180 degrees opposite from the professed historical truth handed down across the ages which is that sex outside of marriage (a marriage being defined as a man and a woman) are sinful acts of our passions. People who have sexual interest in their own sex are included. Also included are those who masturbate.

Theologically, this is our enslavement to our passions and our clouding of our nous, and our greater missing the mark of God. We become enslaved by our base pleasures and unruly emotions, and instead of living a life in Christ, in imitation of Him, in fasting, prayer and obedience --- instead of believing His word, listening to His teachings, and following His commandments, we wish to recreate God in our own image and in our own terms instead of falling on our knees and praying for mercy and forgiveness. But it starts with us on our knees acknowledging our sinfulness and many transgressions, and our turning away from our sinful passions, and redirecting ourselves towards Him. And He stands there as our loving Father and embraces us in the arms of the resurrected Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

We must first learn to forgive too and to humble ourselves before those whom we have hurt and offended and seek reconcillation with those whom we have treated without mercy or forgiveness. This is the teaching and example set forward by the Messiah. These are our instructions to follow so that we might rise up with Him and be saved out of the goodness of His own love and mercy.

For while we were sinners, corruptible unto death and decay, our Father in Heaven sent us His Son so that the demons would be rendered powerless and death would have no reign over us. None other but the Only Begotten Who has restored our eternal glory given to us by our Almighty Creator and healed us completely in every way.

Through Him, our lives are like a shining lamp on a table and a brilliantly lit city on top of a hill! This is the goodness of God and the love of God!

The Light of God however is not given more to those who distort His teachings and commandments as carried down faithfully by the apostolic Church, but rather to those who have remained servants to His word, obedient to His commandments, and steadfast in their faith and trust in Him. By this we grow in His likeness and divinity by His deifying Holy Spirit and become heirs of the Kingdom and partakers of the divine nature. This same Love of God our very life through the divine energies of God's uncreated grace. We become the new man in the new body restored to its former glory, indeed, ascended into adopted sons and co-rulers of the Kingdom of Heaven. For this we ascribe honor, worship, glory and thanksgiving to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit!

Our faith begins with our faith, and is strengthened not only by the mere historical truths revealed by God and wonders in the lives of the saints and the working of the Holy Spirit within the world, but even greater by the spiritual assurance given by God (by the same Comforter) within those who open their hearts and seek Him as He is, and not as they wish to recreate Him to be.

 

[Terry1]

I would like to make the clarification that the assembly in question is PCUSA, which has always taken a liberal interpretation of the Bible, and in no way represents the views of most Presbyterie. I keep seeing people make the error that this particular governing body represents all Presbyterian churches. I am not Presbyterian, but I know quite a few who disagree with PCUSA on most issues.

All of the protestant churches are caving into homosexuality and their orgs are splintering--breaking apart because of it. This is what happens to denominations who teach false doctrines.


The Presbyterian worldwide Mother church in Scotland is also teetering on the issue of homosexuality as reference here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterianism_and_homosexuality

Many of the protestant churches now are becoming apostates by giving into the world and are no more Christian than the false doctrine their teaching. The Methodists and Lutherans are also promoting homosexuality by giving them their own sects instead of witnessing the truth to them. These protestant denominations are all teetering on acceptance of what God says is worthy of death and abhors. These large protestant orgs are breaking apart on this issue and gradually becoming part of the worldly apostate churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Lutheranism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Methodism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Baptist_churches

 

[Scrapmo]

I am not intrested in starting a RCC vs Protestant bullshit pissing contest terry. Take it up with sola or ff when they come back if you feel the need.

 

[acptulsa]

15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

15:9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Does God want us to keep the sinners out of Heaven, or help them repent and get in?

Tell you what. You save the sinners who are easy to save, and the PCUSA will do what is necessary to save the sinners who aren't easy to save--and turn the other cheek to you at the same time. Deal?

Is this conversation over yet?