PPP 2016 GOP Poll - Iowa (May '14)

Whoever is getting the most media coverage seems to go ahead. I think organizing the on-ground game is important. The rest will take care of itself until closer to the actual primaries. The "flavor of the week" voter attitude (as polled) of the last election cycle showed this. As more potential candidates come forward, they'll be vetted as well as the candidates themselves looking at the situation and wondering if it's worth it to run. And if more true liberty and/or constitutional candidates come forward and enter the debates, it's just more support Rand has on the stage, so he will be harder to marginalize. Aren't we too far out to worry about anything but the ground game?

I'm not worried about the ground game. As showcased in 2012, liberty supporters showed up and took over conventions when asked, and even when not asked. Some to the detriment of their own health, and personal finances.

If we are worried about the ground game, we should be most concerned with who Rand puts on his staff, and HOPE it's not the same political geniuses that turned away supporters in 2012. Then again, they're the experts that wasted nearly $40 million, and got fewer votes than Rick Santorum. What do any of use know that didn't receive paychecks and/or apparent bribes from Ron Paul 2012 know? NOTHING. Exactly.
 
It's really going to come down to the structure of that state party and how well our folks know things like the delegate selection process.

Exactly. It comes down to US.

I sure hope not. Our numbers aren't shit and we don't have the money to win it. To repeat his father's presidential campaign strategy is a guaranteed loss. The delegate strategy will not win Rand the nomination any more than it won Ron the nomination. Winning the popular vote in primaries is key.
 
I'm all for calling out incompetence and corruption at that level, where it exists. But I want to make some counterpoints:

wasted nearly $40 million,

What part was wasted? It's important to realize every flier,letter, commercial, internet video, bumper sticker, and yard sign helps name recognition at the very least, and encourages google searches. Further, those who were paid a salary and did a good job cannot be totally wasted. And those who did a good job on some things.

and got fewer votes than Rick Santorum.

Part of that was insurmountable demographics, part of it media bias. It's well documented that the sweater vest got much more and more positive coverage all over the place than Ron did. The number of votes relative to other candidates that the campaign was able to secure is definitely relevant, but there are many other factors. How many votes did Santorum get in the states that Ron fared better? How many of those votes were because of Santorum's Iowa success?
 
I'm all for calling out incompetence and corruption at that level, where it exists. But I want to make some counterpoints:

What part was wasted? It's important to realize every flier,letter, commercial, internet video, bumper sticker, and yard sign helps name recognition at the very least, and encourages google searches. Further, those who were paid a salary and did a good job cannot be totally wasted. And those who did a good job on some things.

Part of that was insurmountable demographics, part of it media bias. It's well documented that the sweater vest got much more and more positive coverage all over the place than Ron did. The number of votes relative to other candidates that the campaign was able to secure is definitely relevant, but there are many other factors. How many votes did Santorum get in the states that Ron fared better? How many of those votes were because of Santorum's Iowa success?

The point of a presidential campaign, is to win the nomination. When Ron Paul 2012 agreed to not attack Mitt Romney, it ceased being a presidential campaign. AND, it didn't tell supporters of that information, until at/after the RNC.
So, from at least February 2012, Ron Paul 2012 wasted MILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS of hours of supporters. For what?
Did they produce one single good ad addressing foreign policy? In a way that could address the issue to the idiot brain-dead type voters in certain states? And air it repeatedly in those states to help Rand in 2016 on that issue? No.
What about ACTUALLY addressing the newsletters, and throwing the writer of them under the bus? No? It will be brought up against Rand in 2016, we already have proof of that, as it was used against a candidate in another state. As a matter of fact, the ad used against the other candidate, LOOKED like it was made for the 2012 election cycle, and redone with another candidate, as to not be wasted.

And if you want to play the "media bias" card, do you expect ANY difference in 2016? It's to be expected, not used as an excuse for campaign incompetence and dishonesty.
Rick Santorum dropped out of the race on April 10th, before several other states even voted.

So, what part was wasted? The millions raised/spent after they agreed to not attack Mitt Romney, and instead, based on their own actions, helped him win the nomination. Name recognition doesn't mean crap, if you aren't winning. Which, is the point of politics. Winning. Unless, you have some ulterior motive for running, that does not actually mean winning. Like, furthering your own financial goals.
 
I'm not worried about the ground game. As showcased in 2012, liberty supporters showed up and took over conventions when asked, and even when not asked. Some to the detriment of their own health, and personal finances.

If we are worried about the ground game, we should be most concerned with who Rand puts on his staff, and HOPE it's not the same political geniuses that turned away supporters in 2012. Then again, they're the experts that wasted nearly $40 million, and got fewer votes than Rick Santorum. What do any of use know that didn't receive paychecks and/or apparent bribes from Ron Paul 2012 know? NOTHING. Exactly.

You should get in touch with Collins and see if he can get you a job with Rand 2016. I think a lot of us would feel better about donating to it if you were on board.
 
Showing your quote with the emphasis it deserves

Then we're fucked. He endorsed Romney, says drugs shouldn't be legalized, says an attack on Israel is an attack on the US... There are many more I could list and all of them have been a turn-off to the the Ron Paul base while being promoted to us as part of the game to attract more mainstream Republicans. "We" have been fractured by Rand's actions. It makes sense to many of us (including myself) why he did it but if you think moneybombs on this site and the delegate strategy is going to win Rand the nomination, you are delusional.
 
You should get in touch with Collins and see if he can get you a job with Rand 2016. I think a lot of us would feel better about donating to it if you were on board.

I can tell you now, I would be fired almost instantly. Why? Upon volunteering time at Ron Paul 2008's official campaign office, I saw campaign staffers sitting around watching CNN news clips, chitchatting, while myself (a non-paid volunteer) was sifting through emails, responding to people that had contacted the campaign.
I can't be paid to just sit around, doing nothing. Which, is apparently what some campaigns want.

And the moment I saw idiocy going on inside, I would say so, and let others know. There is absolutely no point in donating money to a campaign, run like a circus. At least when you buy a circus ticket, it's usually entertaining and you get what you expect (unless an elephant gets loose and runs through the audience).
I wish the people I knew that sacrificed car repairs, Christmas gifts, took on second jobs, and gave up semesters of school to help a campaign(s), could actually say it was worth it.
 
Then we're fucked. He endorsed Romney, says drugs shouldn't be legalized, says an attack on Israel is an attack on the US... There are many more I could list and all of them have been a turn-off to the the Ron Paul base while being promoted to us as part of the game to attract more mainstream Republicans. "We" have been fractured by Rand's actions. It makes sense to many of us (including myself) why he did it but if you think moneybombs on this site and the delegate strategy is going to win Rand the nomination, you are delusional.

OK, I'll bite. What's your preferred strategy to advance Liberty?
 
I sure hope not. Our numbers aren't shit and we don't have the money to win it. To repeat his father's presidential campaign strategy is a guaranteed loss. The delegate strategy will not win Rand the nomination any more than it won Ron the nomination. Winning the popular vote in primaries is key.

Sounds pretty defeatist to me. If that's the way you feel, why do you even bother to post here?

On edit--I missed your last line

Winning the popular vote in primaries is key.

so perhaps I have misconstrued your point. Certainly winning primaries is key, how could that not be? Grassroots action is not an end in itself, to be meaningful it must have a goal. Winning is a good goal. So, what is the best strategy to acheive that result?
 
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The point of a presidential campaign, is to win the nomination.

That may be your only goal, and it may be the goal of any individual donor. I donated without needing a win to feel satisfied, it is possible.

We are, and were, in a unique situation. Ron Paul was way behind. Our ideas were not popular, by a longshot. That makes the win less probable, and therefore less justification for being upset when it didn't happen. It also makes the part of the campaign that is educational more important, and a greater portion of the good that came of it.

So many people see this in black and white. Too many think that either you run to win, or you are wasting time. But the truth is that running to win is also educational. Platforms are revised, opinions changed, rules adapted, people inspired. The campaign said they were in it to win it. I too believe that's the only way to run, unless you're Bud Green of the Pot Party. It's so utterly pointless to think about whether a candidate will win. All that matters is doing what it takes to convince as many people as possible at all times. This is the goal of an educational campaign, and a winning campaign. It's the opposite of black and white - they are nearly one and the same.

When a candidate doesn't win, learn from mistakes. By all means heads should roll if there is corruption. But honest people exposing that corruption, if it exists, do a disservice when they don't show clear evidence. Look at whistleblowers who are credible.

When Ron Paul 2012 agreed to not attack Mitt Romney, it ceased being a presidential campaign.

I don't want to dispute the fact you are trying to get at here, but it's hard to keep an open mind with such claims. How does a presidential campaign cease to be one? Did Ron Paul 2012 agree not to attack Mitt Romney? What were the benefits or perceived benefits of doing so? Who made this decision?

AND, it didn't tell supporters of that information, until at/after the RNC.

Perhaps they would have attacked if only Romney was left. I have no idea. I'm trying to keep an open mind if you have evidence. But also, if true, why was that the strategy? What were the perceived benefits, and who made the decision? Perhaps there are not many people who are mad he didn't attack Romney, if he didn't?

So, from at least February 2012, Ron Paul 2012 wasted MILLIONS of dollars and THOUSANDS of hours of supporters.

That's a stretch. Where was the money spent? If it changed minds it cannot possibly be 100% wasted. I can understand it would upset someone who thought the campaign should attack Romney. Seems to me they should attack everyone with a weak record, but I don't know anything about strategy on that level, but what I can verify with facts.

Did they produce one single good ad addressing foreign policy? In a way that could address the issue to the idiot brain-dead type voters in certain states? And air it repeatedly in those states to help Rand in 2016 on that issue? No.

Again, that's something that seems important to me too. But what do I know? Also seems like they did produce ads on foreign policy for the internet. Perhaps budget didn't allow? I just have no idea based on the facts.

Here's a video that attacks Romney.



What about ACTUALLY addressing the newsletters, and throwing the writer of them under the bus? No? It will be brought up against Rand in 2016, we already have proof of that, as it was used against a candidate in another state. As a matter of fact, the ad used against the other candidate, LOOKED like it was made for the 2012 election cycle, and redone with another candidate, as to not be wasted.

Seems like it was addressed to me. I think the perceived damage was way overblown. To me the amount of attention it deserves is about as much as I saw reasonable people give it.

And if you want to play the "media bias" card,

Excuse me, you can't reduce a fact to a card and make it go away. Hard to take this post seriously anymore.

do you expect ANY difference in 2016? It's to be expected, not used as an excuse for campaign incompetence and dishonesty.

Don't know what to expect. Rand hasn't even declared candidacy, much less chosen staff, much less have I seen reasonable debate as to incompetency or dishonesty to be concerned about.

To say the media bias is used as an excuse is one absurd claim. I am responding to your use of 'getting less votes than Santorum' being evidence of incompetence, as to believe that is proof of incompetency shows ignorance or downright ignoring the facts. The media bias is a fact. It is well documented. It was absurdly unbalanced coverage. It is a reason, not an excuse.

So, what part was wasted? The millions raised/spent after they agreed to not attack Mitt Romney, and instead, based on their own actions, helped him win the nomination.

That's an exaggerated claim. I've heard the opinion that he was the best candidate to go one on one against, based on demographics, and therefore weeding out the rest of the field was the best strategy. True or not, there are possibilities being ignored in the claim above. It is still possible, based upon the facts presented, that the campaign was trying to win, and not attacking Romney. Or that the campaign was trying to win, and was attacking Romney.

Name recognition doesn't mean crap, if you aren't winning.Which, is the point of politics. Winning. Unless, you have some ulterior motive for running, that does not actually mean winning. Like, furthering your own financial goals.

That's exaggerated too, but it is close to true for a candidate like Herman Cain. But for Ron Paul, name recognition was vital for getting votes. And every bit helps toward what appears to be happening in 2016.

Are you claiming Ron Paul ran to further his own financial goals?

Seems to me that you are obsessed with the power of the seat. Do you not see the value of winning hearts and minds?
 
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Do you not see the value of winning hearts and minds?

I'm all for it, and have said the campaign failed to do that in a good way. Fewer voters than Rick Santorum, AND Newt Gingrich I think backs up my claim on that. Despite raising more money than both of them, Ron Paul 2012 couldn't take the man with the most conservative, Constitutional, record, and win a single state's popular vote?

And no, Ron Paul 2012 never produced a Romney only attack ad, like they did for Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum, even Rick Perry:





And Ron Paul is the one that setup with Disney investors the Ron Paul Channel, that started as a subscription service. Not sure if it still is? I just follow the dots, and make conclusions based on facts/history/actions.

I have said if Ron Paul 2012 was serious about waking more people up, they could have done so by producing ads that addressed actual issues, instead of producing ads to help Mitt Romney win the nomination.
Perfect example. When Mitt Romney's campaign was getting pummeled over one of his advisor's talking about resetting for the General Election, "like an Etch-A-Sketch", Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich of course used it to attack Mitt Romney directly. Why? They were trying to win it.
What did Ron Paul 2012 do with that? Use it to attack Mitt Romney? No, they used clips of Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, and produced an ad that was effectively defending Mitt Romney and making fun of the other two:


And here is the Ron Paul 2012 not attacking Mitt Romney, because they were afraid of being attacked by Mitt Romney's campaign:


I'm surprised you aren't aware of any of this. You do know Ron Paul 2012 didn't run one single ad to even try and let Virginia voters know Ron Paul was serious about winning? But, Ron Paul 2012 spent at least $100K running Rick Santorum attack ads in Michigan, helping Mitt Romney win that state.

So, this:
That's an exaggerated claim. I've heard the opinion that he was the best candidate to go one on one against, based on demographics, and therefore weeding out the rest of the field was the best strategy. True or not, there are possibilities being ignored in the claim above. It is still possible, based upon the facts presented, that the campaign was trying to win, and not attacking Romney. Or that the campaign was trying to win, and was attacking Romney.

Holds no water at all. You can't claim the strategy was to weed out the rest of the field, AND go for a brokered convention. And you can't claim the opinion was to make it a Romney vs. Paul strategy, because the campaign didn't run one single positive/negative TV ad in Virginia on Super Tuesday. Virginia was the first one-vs-one state, with ONLY Mitt Romney and Ron Paul on the ballot, AND with delegates up for grabs.

Ron Paul 2012 didn't spend ONE dime on ads in Virginia. Not one. This "opinion" of trying to make the race Ron Paul vs. Mitt Romney holds about as long as Congress does to a balanced budget these days.
 
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I'm all for it, and have said the campaign failed to do that in a good way. Fewer voters than Rick Santorum, AND Newt Gingrich I think backs up my claim on that.

I don't see that it follows. Ron surely has more supporters, even in Iowa, than he did before the campaign. I'm also a strong believer that our biggest obstacle is voters who will vote for anyone that Hannity won't make them feel stupid for voting for. It would have taken a brilliant campaign, perfect scenario, and honest counting of the votes for Ron to win Iowa. And there are gobs of people who never would vote for him, because he was so consistently badmouthed. So many just waiting to find out which one would be the declared 'frontrunner' so they would know how to vote. Didn't he take a close third anyway? I've always kind of felt that was a pretty good showing, despite the obstacles. I'm not afraid to find out otherwise, but it's not relevant to me unless Rand choses the same people, and I know they were responsible for the bad decisions.

Despite raising more money than both of them, Ron Paul 2012 couldn't take the man with the most conservative, Constitutional, record, and win a single state's popular vote?

That always seemed absurd to me too, but people are strange. So many love to feel like conservatives but don't care to actually be one. And then there's the Hannity effect, and the obstacle of explaining to friends a vote for Ron. Rand is much different in this regard, he's leading the Republican Party on so many issues.

And no, Ron Paul 2012 never produced a Romney only attack ad, like they did for Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum, even Rick Perry:

I never thought the 'Romney only' part of your argument was very compelling, but what Wead says obviously is.

And Ron Paul is the one that setup with Disney investors the Ron Paul Channel, that started as a subscription service. Not sure if it still is? I just follow the dots, and make conclusions based on facts/history/actions.

I don't have a problem with it, really. Nothing like I would have done, but it's pretty good. Good content, and lots of it freely available. Enough that I haven't looked through it all, and don't foresee a time when I will. But it's there for us to share freely.

I have said if Ron Paul 2012 was serious about waking more people up, they could have done so by producing ads that addressed actual issues, instead of producing ads to help Mitt Romney win the nomination.
Perfect example. When Mitt Romney's campaign was getting pummeled over one of his advisor's talking about resetting for the General Election, "like an Etch-A-Sketch", Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich of course used it to attack Mitt Romney directly. Why? They were trying to win it.
What did Ron Paul 2012 do with that? Use it to attack Mitt Romney? No, they used clips of Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich, and produced an ad that was effectively defending Mitt Romney and making fun of the other two:


I like that ad, in that it shows Ron rising above the bickering. But you're right, and any bickering could have been chosen to associate with juvenile politics. I think the ad would generally help Ron among people who are tired of Romney being attacked. Not the way I would have done it.

And here is the Ron Paul 2012 not attacking Mitt Romney, because they were afraid of being attacked by Mitt Romney's campaign:


Very interesting. I don't like the stretching of the claims inserted in the video. A better and more compelling argument can be made if the facts are there. I would tend to side with Wead's evaluation, but I don't know how it feels to be Ron Paul in that situation. If there's nothing legitimate to expose about Ron Paul, millions of dollars can still destroy his credibility. I don't know anything about the numbers, but I thought a well organized delegate strategy had a chance up through Michigan?

I'm surprised you aren't aware of any of this.

Me too, but it's not relevant to me either. Wouldn't have changed any decision I've made since.

You do know Ron Paul 2012 didn't run one single ad to even try and let Virginia voters know Ron Paul was serious about winning? But, Ron Paul 2012 spent at least $100K running Rick Santorum attack ads in Michigan, helping Mitt Romney win that state.

I would like to know why.

So, this ... Holds no water at all. You can't claim the strategy was to weed out the rest of the field, AND go for a brokered convention.

Good point.

And you can't claim the opinion was to make it a Romney vs. Paul strategy, because the campaign didn't run one single positive/negative TV ad in Virginia on Super Tuesday. Virginia was the first one-vs-one state, with ONLY Mitt Romney and Ron Paul on the ballot, AND with delegates up for grabs.


Also a good point. I'll point out that I cannot assume either one of those statements are true though, without research. I would encourage you to spoonfeed people the links in your efforts to change minds.
 
[/B]Also a good point. I'll point out that I cannot assume either one of those statements are true though, without research. I would encourage you to spoonfeed people the links in your efforts to change minds.

I have posted links and videos throughout my posts on this topic. I just assumed that since you were a mod, and here since 2007, you were aware of it.

The video of Doug Wead, I even edited down from the original fuller interview, which was originally around 20 minutes.

But, in Iowa, Ron Paul 2012 might have done more harm, than good for the future movement, when they apparently bribed a representative for an endorsement. Which is why I said Rand might have already written Iowa off, without even saying it. And it might be why Ron Paul 2012 is still sitting on more than $900K of donations, because they are saving it for any legal battle that might arise from that issue.

The investigation is still ongoing though, but if you aren't aware of it:
http://theiowarepublican.com/2013/the-payoff-details-revealed-on-sorensons-deal-with-ron-paul/
http://theiowarepublican.com/2014/f...-into-ron-paul-2012-campaign-sorenson-payoff/
 
I have posted links and videos throughout my posts on this topic. I just assumed that since you were a mod, and here since 2007, you were aware of it.

Meh, it's just that it's not relevant to me. If there were an effective and compelling video I would share it. I've kind of chosen other battles. Ron was a unique situation, the only politician I thought I'd ever see that was worth the resources. Turns out his campaign spurred a good number of other politicians worth it, and a lot more activist efforts than that.
 
He endorsed Romney, says drugs shouldn't be legalized, says an attack on Israel is an attack on the US... There are many more I could list and all of them have been a turn-off to the the Ron Paul base while being promoted to us as part of the game to attract more mainstream Republicans.

I don't know, if there are enough people to actually get the nomination, the bulk of them aren't coming from us anyway.

"We" have been fractured by Rand's actions. It makes sense to many of us (including myself) why he did it but if you think moneybombs on this site and the delegate strategy is going to win Rand the nomination, you are delusional.

Oh come now. At least show why, instead of calling people delusional. I can become a delegate. Should I?
 
And Ron Paul is the one that setup with Disney investors the Ron Paul Channel, that started as a subscription service. Not sure if it still is? I just follow the dots, and make conclusions based on facts/history/actions.

"Ron Paul", the natural man, never did any of those things. The group that built up around him (Benton marrying his granddaughter, eg) has done a lot in his name. There is a big difference. Dr. Ronald E. Paul is a saint. Even Dorothy Mantooth genuflects to Dr. Paul. RP was the centerpiece to a lot of organizations that built up around his inspiration over the years. Ron Paul, the natural man, spreads the message as he always has. Now people are listening and many people are capitalizing on the message. Bad thing? Not necessarily, but don't keep the impression that Ron himself is directly responsible for what has grown up around a small group of losers sitting in their mom's basement in 2007 that decided to start a movement :) :)

You seem to be using info you recently learned here to try to throw shade on the movement itself and indict everyone in Ron Paul's name. I see what you're doing jjdoyle. You're using our own experiences against us and trying to be besmirch Ron in the process. jjdoyle is opposition research.
 
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"Ron Paul", the natural man, never did any of those things. The group that built up around him (Benton marrying his granddaughter, eg) has done a lot in his name. There is a big difference. Dr. Ronald E. Paul is a saint. Even Dorothy Mantooth genuflects to Dr. Paul. RP was the centerpiece to a lot of organizations that built up around his inspiration over the years. Ron Paul, the natural man, spreads the message as he always has. Now people are listening and many people are capitalizing on the message. Bad thing? Not necessarily, but don't keep the impression that Ron himself is directly responsible for what has grown up around a small group of losers sitting in their mom's basement in 2007 that decided to start a movement :) :)

You seem to be using info you recently learned here to try to throw shade on the movement itself and indict everyone in Ron Paul's name. I see what you're doing jjdoyle. You're using our own experiences against us and trying to be besmirch Ron in the process. jjdoyle is opposition research.

So, Ron Paul wasn't the one to agree to Ron Paul Channel, and doesn't know it's behind a paywall/subscription service? Again, that was about what has been done since the campaign and retiring from Congress. The portion you quoted above. Not any decisions he did/didn't know the campaign made.

In the Kent Sorenson issue, RP is not listed as one of the people to know about it.

Again, the portion you quoted above, was about Ron Paul Channel and the investors behind it. I did recently learn of that information, as I hadn't seen any articles posted on who was actually behind helping setup the Channel.

Everything else, I have known and been saying for years. Some of it, DURING the campaign. There is nothing about wanting and expecting honest campaigns, and stating what was/wasn't done, that is opposition research.
 
http://www.ronpaulchannel.com/about-us/works/

Why the Cost?

I want to take the time to thank the people who have worked so hard to make this website a reality. Almost 30 dedicated employees & vendors have worked with us to make our site a success. I am honored to have such a great team and truly hope you all are enjoying the Channel. This team works tirelessly to produce compelling guest discussions, share the latest in libertarian news, keep a watchful eye on government misconduct and intrusion & figure out how YOU can make a difference with us.

As we grow our community, we hope to address your concerns pertaining to the pricing of the Ron Paul Channel. We have collectively decided to put together a well researched, well produced product and in exchange we are looking for our loyal supporters to help keep us moving forward.

I am excited for all that we have planned in 2014 and look forward to connecting with all of you.
- Ron

Most of it is free though.
 
Ever been watching a movie and when you get about halfway through you realize you've seen it before?
Just had the same feeling regarding this thread.
 
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