Please convince me of statism!

[angelatc]

Hi angelatc , are you having a good day? While I realise that such a claim seems absolutely absurd (as I once did)... having actually listened to the arguments made, I saw that I was wrong.

I believe that your autism makes you believe a lot of things that normal people don't. I also believe it leaves you without the ability to understand other people, which means while I already understand your positions, you have no ability to understand normal society.

 

[Conza88]

Conza88, how does posting other people's opinions/thoughts in the form of web and video links hold any sort of value?

Because I have watched or read the content in my journey of learning. Because I once held the same flawed position as yourself / whoever, and the source I am linking to for you and others to read/watch, addresses that.

You post content from Rothbard, that stefbot dude, and other Anarchists and expect it to be accepted as viable truth and a worthy rebuttal.

Everybody has an opinion. How are the opinion's of those who you support any more "right" or "truthful" than anyone else?

How are you defining "anarchist"?

Opinion is not the same as argument.

 

[Revolution9]

Conza88, how does posting other people's opinions/thoughts in the form of web and video links hold any sort of value? You post content from Rothbard, that stefbot dude, and other Anarchists and expect it to be accepted as viable truth and a worthy rebuttal.

Everybody has an opinion. How are the opinion's of those who you support any more "right" or "truthful" than anyone else?

Ker-smack!! I take nobody as the expert. I run it through MY filters and see what happens when I subject it to thought experiments. I could care less what the so called experts, cult runners or pundits have to pontificate. The Good Lord gave me common sense and discernment enough to qualify any set of statements as utter hogwash, bearing points worth considering or having the full weight of authority.

Rev9

 

[Revolution9]

Because I have watched or read the content in my journey of learning. Because I once held the same flawed position as yourself / whoever, and the source I am linking to for you and others to read/watch, addresses that.

My cockatoo is a great mimic of sounds.

HTH
Rev9

 

[ClayTrainor]

I believe that your autism makes you believe a lot of things that normal people don't. I also believe it leaves you without the ability to understand other people, which means while I already understand your positions, you have no ability to understand normal society.

How to be a statist:

When someone makes an argument against the state, insult them and then use that insult as an excuse to ignore everything they say. This is the ad-hominem fallacy and it is the statists most essential and commonly used debating tool.

 

[Conza88]

I believe that your autism makes you believe a lot of things that normal people don't. I also believe it leaves you without the ability to understand other people, which means while I already understand your positions, you have no ability to understand normal society.

You didn't answer any of my valid questions. Statists are all alike. Drop the ad hominems please. Moderators, you openly tolerate this? Double standards folks.

Psychoanalysis as a Weapon - Murray N. Rothbard

“No better is the propensity, very popular nowadays, to brand supporters of other ideologies as lunatics. Psychiatrists are vague in drawing a line between sanity and insanity. It would be preposterous for laymen to interfere with this fundamental issue of psychiatry. However, it is clear that if the mere fact that a man shares erroneous views and acts according to his errors qualifies him as mentally disabled, it would be very hard to discover an individual to which the epithet [p. 186] sane or normal could be attributed. Then we are bound to call the past generations lunatic because their ideas about the problems of the natural sciences and concomitantly their techniques differed from ours. Coming generations will call us lunatics for the same reason.Man is liable to error. If to err were the characteristic feature of mental disability, then everybody should be called mentally disabled.

Neither can the fact that a man is at variance with the opinions held by the majority of his contemporaries qualify him as a lunatic. Were Copernicus, Galileo and Lavoisier insane? It is the regular course of history that a man conceives new ideas, contrary to those of other people. Some of these ideas are later embodied in the system of knowledge accepted by public opinion as true. Is it permissible to apply the epithet "sane" only to boors who never had ideas of their own and to deny it to all innovators?

The procedure of some contemporary psychiatrists is really outrageous. They are utterly ignorant of the theories of praxeology and economics. Their familiarity with present-day ideologies is superficial and uncritical. Yet they blithely call the supporters of some ideologies paranoid persons.” ~ Human Action, Chapter 9 Sec 2.​

- Now here is my post again. Answer the questions this time please.

Hi angelatc , are you having a good day? While I realise that such a claim seems absolutely absurd (as I once did)... having actually listened to the arguments made, I saw that I was wrong.

"[T]he crucial question is not, as so many believe, whether property rights should be private or governmental, but rather whether the necessarily 'private' owners are legitimate owners or criminals. For ultimately, there is no entity called 'government'; there are only people forming themselves into groups called 'governments' and acting in a 'governmental' manner. All property is therefore always 'private'; the only and critical question is whether it should reside in the hands of criminals or of the proper and legitimate owners." ~ Murray Rothbard​

How do you define "government" angelatc? I am wondering, as you must contend that such an entity called "government" exists in physical reality, could you help point it out to me? Help meeee

 

[Conza88]

Ker-smack!! I take nobody as the expert. I run it through MY filters and see what happens when I subject it to thought experiments. I could care less what the so called experts, cult runners or pundits have to pontificate. The Good Lord gave me common sense and discernment enough to qualify any set of statements as utter hogwash, bearing points worth considering or having the full weight of authority.

Rev9

Hilarious ... says the guy who doesn't read quotes . No, see... I agree with these folks arguments, not because of who they are - but what they say. I don't link to them for their "authority".

My cockatoo is a great mimic of sounds.
HTH
Rev9

Pity it doesn't have the ability to reason, or engage in argumentation. Then it might have more success in showing who the real "bird brains" are.

 

[Conza88]

dblepost.

 

[Jake Ralston]

Conza88, you are a terribly destructive troll. angelatc, Rev9, LE, Travlyr and many others here have done nothing but support the liberty movement.

Why are you determined to destroy their credibility, call them liars, and publicly denounce them?
Don't you dare deny it either because the evidence is clearly found in your post history.

Do you not appreciate the fact that they have contributed so much to liberty?

Do you not respect the fact that not everyone will agree with you, regardless of how many Rothbard quotes you provide?

Do you not understand that people don't care whether you think of them as ignorant, intellectually dishonest or any other insult you may come up with?

You are consumed with pride. Your arrogance stinks to high heaven. The only credibility you have here comes from the people that agree with you already.

Are you seriously trying to help people believe and support the same causes you do? Your not doing a very good job.

 

[angelatc]

How to be a statist:

When someone makes an argument against the state, insult them and then use that insult as an excuse to ignore everything they say. This is the ad-hominem fallacy and it is the statists most essential and commonly used debating tool.

I unblocked you just to tell you that you're right, but I knew what I was doing I threw it out there. But here's the rub - that's part of the reason I did it - suddenly his almost inhuman black-and-white thought process seemed a little too familiar to me.

Also realize that if your assertion had come from Conza88 in immediate response, I would have doubted, and even recanted upon request, my suspicions. However, he reacted exactly the way I expected he would, though. Which means nothing philisophically, but I now think more than ever that he's autistic and therefore literally quite unable to understand the same reality most of us live in.

ETA: I need to clarify that. Autism produces a different type of thought process. Not that it's good or bad, but just that we can't perceive the world the way he does any more than he can perceive it the way we do.

 

[Sentient Void]

The reason the libertarian movement has grown so much and more hardcore elements of it have grown and become more popular is because people like Conza, myself, and many others like us online and out in real life have been debating these issues directly with others, in front of 'audiences' and obliterating the fallacies that you guys and other statists are propagating.

We don't expect nor care to change *your* minds. We merely wish to expose the fallacies, point out the absurdities and show the logical proof of our arguments. Your fallacious responses only serve to expose the intellectual dishonesty and strengthen our position as the valid one.

And *that* is why the 'spectrum of liberty' is winning, and will win.

Of course, you guys are part of the spectrum of liberty - but you still adhere to your stockholm syndrome to the state, as well as more or less of a degree of constitution fetishism. We will however continue to beat the hammer of a priori logic over your heads for others to witness, and hopefully for some of you to acknowledge, so that you can let go of your emotional attachment to the State and think more rationally on these issues.

Rothbard, Hoppe, et al quotes aren't merely appeals to authority - they hold heavy intellectual weight and it is merely giving credit where credit is due in showing a powerful and logical intellectual argument against whatever flavor of statism that you are propagating.

 

[Conza88]

“No better is the propensity, very popular nowadays, to brand supporters of other ideologies as lunatics. Psychiatrists are vague in drawing a line between sanity and insanity. It would be preposterous for laymen to interfere with this fundamental issue of psychiatry. However, it is clear that if the mere fact that a man shares erroneous views and acts according to his errors qualifies him as mentally disabled, it would be very hard to discover an individual to which the epithet [p. 186] sane or normal could be attributed. Then we are bound to call the past generations lunatic because their ideas about the problems of the natural sciences and concomitantly their techniques differed from ours. Coming generations will call us lunatics for the same reason. Man is liable to error. If to err were the characteristic feature of mental disability, then everybody should be called mentally disabled.

Neither can the fact that a man is at variance with the opinions held by the majority of his contemporaries qualify him as a lunatic. Were Copernicus, Galileo and Lavoisier insane? It is the regular course of history that a man conceives new ideas, contrary to those of other people. Some of these ideas are later embodied in the system of knowledge accepted by public opinion as true. Is it permissible to apply the epithet "sane" only to boors who never had ideas of their own and to deny it to all innovators?

The procedure of some contemporary psychiatrists is really outrageous. They are utterly ignorant of the theories of praxeology and economics. Their familiarity with present-day ideologies is superficial and uncritical. Yet they blithely call the supporters of some ideologies paranoid persons.”

~ Ludwig von Mises, Human Action, Chapter 9 Sec 2.

Don't worry angelatc, I don't think you're insane. Just severely misguided .

 

[Revolution9]

Hilarious ... says the guy who doesn't read quotes . No, see... I agree with these folks arguments, not because of who they are - but what they say. I don't link to them for their "authority".



Pity it doesn't have the ability to reason, or engage in argumentation. Then it might have more success in showing who the real "bird brains" are.

You have a great ability to quote. You do not have that great of an ability to leverage that into a universally derived argumentation of your own making. And you have some kind of air that we are supposed to take YOU seriously when you seem to be a compendium of parts of others mentalities. And you call me a bird brain, yet it is the bird brain that holds the reptilian complex in check with its claws. My reaction is to think. Yours, like the autonomic nervous system is to relay signals from other places. I respond to points others make in their arguments that they thought of. I do not need to apply quotes from heavyweights, especially when I see them as specialized lightweights with an agenda. For those seeking an abrogation of authority over them in this thread they sure buckle under hard to authority when pleading their case.

This type of headspace gives you great difficulty and you have no method to supercede it. Hence you invert and project to deal with your dissonance.

Rev9

 

[Revolution9]

The reason the libertarian movement has grown so much and more hardcore elements of it have grown and become more popular is because people like Conza, myself, and many others like us online and out in real life have been debating these issues directly with others, in front of 'audiences' and obliterating the fallacies that you guys and other statists are propagating. <snip projection and standard appeal to authority>

Not likely. You guys have alot less impact than you imagine. You fellas toss around the term statist with slippery definitions like a spastic juggler attempting a 10 ball lofter. You get no brownie points for this bogus tactic. Yer worse than frakkn' feminazis when chained to your own petard.

Rev9

 

[angelatc]

Not likely. You guys have alot less impact than you imagine. You fellas toss around the term statist with slippery definitions like a spastic juggler attempting a 10 ball lofter. You get no brownie points for this bogus tactic. Yer worse than frakkn' feminazis when chained to your own petard.

Rev9

I haven't even seen any evidence of growth either. It's almost ironic that the swelled head position he is taking - "I am an intellectual leader!" - is born of the same attitude that instantly drives most people quickly away from libertarianism in the first place.

 

[angelatc]

Don't worry angelatc, I don't think you're insane. Just severely misguided .

In your view, almost all people seem severely misguided. Isn't that true?

 

[A Son of Liberty]

The reason the libertarian movement has grown so much and more hardcore elements of it have grown and become more popular is because people like Conza, myself, and many others like us online and out in real life have been debating these issues directly with others, in front of 'audiences' and obliterating the fallacies that you guys and other statists are propagating.

We don't expect nor care to change *your* minds. We merely wish to expose the fallacies, point out the absurdities and show the logical proof of our arguments. Your fallacious responses only serve to expose the intellectual dishonesty and strengthen our position as the valid one.

And *that* is why the 'spectrum of liberty' is winning, and will win.

Of course, you guys are part of the spectrum of liberty - but you still adhere to your stockholm syndrome to the state, as well as more or less of a degree of constitution fetishism. We will however continue to beat the hammer of a priori logic over your heads for others to witness, and hopefully for some of you to acknowledge, so that you can let go of your emotional attachment to the State and think more rationally on these issues.

Rothbard, Hoppe, et al quotes aren't merely appeals to authority - they hold heavy intellectual weight and it is merely giving credit where credit is due in showing a powerful and logical intellectual argument against whatever flavor of statism that you are propagating.

This post wins.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

There's a reason that philosophers don't rule the world. If you actually believe that the world will run on logic, then bless your naive, innocent little heart. But sweetie, his argument isn't "flawed," he just summed up humanity.

"Philosophical model".

His argument is severly flawed, because it is based on a poor philosophical premise. Of course philosophers don't rule the world. But the rulers of the world build their rule upon a philosophical foundation (whether they realize it or not).

Are men created equal? Are men soveriegns unto themselves? The answer to these questions is *objectively* (provable; able to be observed) 'yes'. As such, society should be organized in such a way as to best respect this truth, and that explicitly precludes the existence of an entity with a monopoly on physical and coercive force.

I'd love to see a logically consistent and coherent counter-argument...

 

[A Son of Liberty]

Conza88, how does posting other people's opinions/thoughts in the form of web and video links hold any sort of value? You post content from Rothbard, that stefbot dude, and other Anarchists and expect it to be accepted as viable truth and a worthy rebuttal.

Everybody has an opinion. How are the opinion's of those who you support any more "right" or "truthful" than anyone else?

Such moral relativism. Very surprising.

Are men created equal? Are men soveriegns unto themselves?

The answer is yes, and that is not an opinion - it is an observable truth.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

It seems this thread is beginning to devolve to mere emotionally charged sniping. It's a shame there's so much psycho-analysis of certain individuals in the thread and so little substantive debate. Make your case!