Plato's Noble Lie in American Politics

[InterestedParticipant]

Plato's noble lie

In the Republic, Plato talked about the 'noble lie', which is a phony reality given to the people (ie Baudrillard's Simulacrum), for the good of the collective, of course. This was the role of Socrates/Plato, to corrupt the youth of Athens with a 'noble lie', and it was, in a large part, what Socrates was put to death for, even though it took the Athenian Democracy 25 years to do it as they contemplated the ethics of their potential actions.

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie

In politics a noble lie is a myth or untruth, often, but not invariably, of a religious nature, knowingly told by an elite to maintain social harmony, or the social position of that elite. The noble lie is a concept originated by Plato as described in The Republic. However, the concept has far greater scope and has been used by many commentators to talk about much more modern issues in politics. A noble lie, although it may benefit all parties, is different from a white lie since a white lie does not cause discord if uncovered whereas noble lies are usually of a nature such that they would do so.


ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW: PLATO'S NOBLE LIE IN ACTION
http://www.dominican.edu/query/ncur/display_ncur.php?id=2279

Traditionally, detractors have criticized the dissemination of information from ruling
body to constituency as propaganda, assertions aimed at convincing the target
audience of a specific agenda; the prevailing logic affirms that governments
keep their citizens ignorant of sensitive data that could potentially distract them
from what is paramount: promoting the stability of the state. The public,
primarily concerned with following its immediate interests, is ill equipped to
dictate the fate of any nation. Platonic thought follows this line of argumentation,
claiming common laborers do not possess the training, nor the constitution
required to properly rule, nor would they ever. Administering the government
is simply not within their nature. What sort of individual would then be qualified
to fulfill the role of legislator? Plato is not comfortable to leave such a decision up
to chance; rulers are not found, they are cultivated. Dividing the population
into three distinct groups: producers, auxiliaries, and guardian-rulers, Plato
outlines the steps necessary to establish the best city imaginable. Most importantly,
the founders of this perfect city must convince the inhabitants that they should
not strive for more than they are capable, a daunting task given the covetous
nature of humanity. How could such a Herculean feat be accomplished? Plato
believed his doctrine of the Noble Lie held the answer, persuading the people
of a falsehood, so that a greater good than satisfying their immediate desires
could be met. To contemporary society, which espouses the belief that all
things are possible for the individual willing to apply themselves, the notion
of sanctioning a rigid caste system seems counter-intuitive. For Plato,
individual freedoms must submit to the will of the community. Examination
of the Noble Lie will yield various truths concerning American politics. Amongst
them, how seemingly noble falsehoods are used as a means of meeting
dubious ends and what the implications of such an assertion are for the
future of American politics.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I suspect you're going to get flak from some members for posting this, but I appreciate it. Good luck in future endeavors like this.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

I suspect you're going to get flak from some members for posting this, but I appreciate it. Good luck in future endeavors like this.

Why?

 

[adamant]

Why would the OP be a problem?

The Peace Revolution podcasts from gnosticmedia.com spend a bit of time on Plato and his noble lie then work their way up through John Taylor Gatto, discussing how we have been educated to be good little serfs.

Peace Revolution: Episode 001: The Great Conversation
Download here: http://gnosticmedia.podomatic.com/enclosure/2009-12-17T23_47_55-08_00.mp3

Peace Revolution: Episode 002: The Million Dollar Education
Download here: http://gnosticmedia.podomatic.com/enclosure/2010-01-21T10_26_22-08_00.mp3

references: http://gnosticmedia.podomatic.com/

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

What is a self evident and unalienable Truth?

Plato's noble lie

In the Republic, Plato talked about the 'noble lie', which is a phony reality given to the people (ie Baudrillard's Simulacrum), for the good of the collective, of course. This was the role of Socrates/Plato, to corrupt the youth of Athens with a 'noble lie', and it was, in a large part, what Socrates was put to death for, even though it took the Athenian Democracy 25 years to do it as they contemplated the ethics of their potential actions.

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie

In politics a noble lie is a myth or untruth, often, but not invariably, of a religious nature, knowingly told by an elite to maintain social harmony, or the social position of that elite. The noble lie is a concept originated by Plato as described in The Republic. However, the concept has far greater scope and has been used by many commentators to talk about much more modern issues in politics. A noble lie, although it may benefit all parties, is different from a white lie since a white lie does not cause discord if uncovered whereas noble lies are usually of a nature such that they would do so.


ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW: PLATO'S NOBLE LIE IN ACTION
http://www.dominican.edu/query/ncur/display_ncur.php?id=2279

Traditionally, detractors have criticized the dissemination of information from ruling
body to constituency as propaganda, assertions aimed at convincing the target
audience of a specific agenda; the prevailing logic affirms that governments
keep their citizens ignorant of sensitive data that could potentially distract them
from what is paramount: promoting the stability of the state. The public,
primarily concerned with following its immediate interests, is ill equipped to
dictate the fate of any nation. Platonic thought follows this line of argumentation,
claiming common laborers do not possess the training, nor the constitution
required to properly rule, nor would they ever. Administering the government
is simply not within their nature. What sort of individual would then be qualified
to fulfill the role of legislator? Plato is not comfortable to leave such a decision up
to chance; rulers are not found, they are cultivated. Dividing the population
into three distinct groups: producers, auxiliaries, and guardian-rulers, Plato
outlines the steps necessary to establish the best city imaginable. Most importantly,
the founders of this perfect city must convince the inhabitants that they should
not strive for more than they are capable, a daunting task given the covetous
nature of humanity. How could such a Herculean feat be accomplished? Plato
believed his doctrine of the Noble Lie held the answer, persuading the people
of a falsehood, so that a greater good than satisfying their immediate desires
could be met. To contemporary society, which espouses the belief that all
things are possible for the individual willing to apply themselves, the notion
of sanctioning a rigid caste system seems counter-intuitive. For Plato,
individual freedoms must submit to the will of the community. Examination
of the Noble Lie will yield various truths concerning American politics. Amongst
them, how seemingly noble falsehoods are used as a means of meeting
dubious ends and what the implications of such an assertion are for the
future of American politics.

The Truth declared by our Founding Fathers is self evident because the people do not need experts defining it, explaining it, or teaching it to them; while, it is unalienable in how it reduces bipartisanly not to the the devisive comprehension of the mind but to the undeniable perception of the collective soul, or collective conscience, or, what many might say, to the collective heart.
So, just what are you trying to say here?

 

[InterestedParticipant]

The Truth declared by our Founding Fathers is self evident because the people do not need experts defining it, explaining it, or teaching it to them; while, it is unalienable in how it reduces bipartisanly not to the the devisive comprehension of the mind but to the undeniable perception of the collective soul, or collective conscience, or, what many might say, to the collective heart.
So, just what are you trying to say here?

Our society uses Plato's "Noble Lie" to subvert individual freedoms to the will of the those who control the community. People are persuaded to believe falsehoods that lead to a "greater good", or at least that is what the public is told. It's is simply how the political and capital class operates, by creating and perpetuating Plato's Noble Lie. The sooner the public realize this the sooner they will see truth and thereby secure their liberty.

Unfortunately, there are numerous Noble Lies out there, and just because one does not believe the establishment lies, does not mean that they are not getting caught in another Web of lies. I have found that Truth is not given, it can only be found with great struggle and understanding.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

But that Truth was given when our Founding Fathers declared it a natural law

I have found that Truth is not given, it can only be found with great struggle and understanding.

Okay. Jesus declared a new covenant as "Love thy neighbor as thyself." This was helpful for the disadvantaged slaves as it reduced the Ten Commandments down to one. The Ten Commandments themselves were supplanted by the commandment given by God in the Garden of Eden for mankind to "Be fruitful and multiply."
The political natural law declared by our Founding Fathers does not replace God's commandment, but defines it in a practical sense.
If you have a new natural law, then let's hear it. The world has had ample amounts of time to challenge the Founders, but none have done so.
If you don't believe in natural law as a scientific method, then that is another thing. But before you do, just consider modern science and its use of theory and where it has led us?

 

[YumYum]

Okay. Jesus declared a new covenant as "Love thy neighbor as thyself." This was helpful for the disadvantaged slaves as it reduced the Ten Commandments down to one. The Ten Commandments themselves were supplanted by the commandment given by God in the Garden of Eden for mankind to "Be fruitful and multiply."
The political natural law declared by our Founding Fathers does not replace God's commandment, but defines it in a practical sense.
If you have a new natural law, then let's hear it. The world has had ample amounts of time to challenge the Founders, but none have done so.
If you don't believe in natural law as a scientific method, then that is another thing. But before you do, just consider modern science and its use of theory and where it has led us?

Are you referring to Christian natural law or Stoic natural law?

 

[InterestedParticipant]

Okay. Jesus declared a new covenant as "Love thy neighbor as thyself." This was helpful for the disadvantaged slaves as it reduced the Ten Commandments down to one. The Ten Commandments themselves were supplanted by the commandment given by God in the Garden of Eden for mankind to "Be fruitful and multiply."
The political natural law declared by our Founding Fathers does not replace God's commandment, but defines it in a practical sense.
If you have a new natural law, then let's hear it. The world has had ample amounts of time to challenge the Founders, but none have done so.
If you don't believe in natural law as a scientific method, then that is another thing. But before you do, just consider modern science and its use of theory and where it has led us?

Let me see if I can clarify... my primary point that I am attempting to make is that people have lost sight of Universal Truths amongst the noise of the Noble Lie.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

As in during the time of Natural Philosophy (One had to be a member of the clergy)

Are you referring to Christian natural law or Stoic natural law?

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" <--- Natural law as in the scientific method used duing the time of our Founding Fathers. Einstein did not disprove Newton's natural law rather the modern physicist translated it from the universal view to a relative view.
But things have gone down hill since Einstein. The use of theory has corrupted science to that of a sophisticated method, a criteria that has shunned following after a philosophy for a system that does not hold to one formal Truth, but many. Yet, the difference between a scientist and a wizard is that the latter did not hold to any philosophy. Indeed, modern science has gone back to catering to tyranny as the wizard at one time catered to the king.
As the use of theory has become corrupted, the scientists themselves have rebelled against the people as they have become shaggy haired and bearded, while, as it benefits them greatly to do so, they have also chosen to flirt with the International Community instead of serving the long suffering nations and the social contract they have established between themselves and tyranny.

 

[theclip]

Problems emerge when profitable lies are told as noble ones.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Right

Let me see if I can clarify... my primary point that I am attempting to make is that people have lost sight of Universal Truths amongst the noise of the Noble Lie.

The Truth is not something we can lose. So, we have to be deceived into thinking that we don't have it.
Take the Garden of Eden as an example. How did Eve rebel? Well, she rebelled against authority. How did Adam rebel? Well, he rebelled when he didn't take responsibility blaming Eve for the offense. So, as Christians, there has to be two offenses for us to fall out of paradise. One is to be rebellious to *authority while the other is to shirk **responsibility.
*According to Watchman Nee, the Chinese Christian minister, being submissive doesn't mean the same as being obedient. If a sister obeyed her husband, she would never meet with other Christians. Being submissive means that when her husband demands that she not meet with other Christians, that she bow to his authority while dressing herself up to meet with them anyway.
**The only way to stop the cycle of abuse is for one to take responsibility. Jesus took responsibility for our sins on the cross thus taking all the blame and putting an end to all abuse.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Problems emerge when profitable lies are told as noble ones.

Our Founding Fathers were Christians. This meant that they understood that a corrupt tyranny could never fix itself. In other words, tyranny is nothing more than good and bad guys working together to exploit rather than serve the masses. It isn't like "Wow, just yesterday the police started serving the gangs." The police have been serving the gangs forever just as the gangs have been serving the police. It's always been an organized crime as in "tyranny." Our Founding Father's purpose wasn't to create a perfect government but a more perfect government meaning establishing a "necessary tyranny" to serve the "Civil Purpose" of the people.
So, because a corrupt tyranny can never fix itself, light needs to be shined on the Truth! This Truth will expose their conscience and hold them accountable under God's judgement.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" <--- Natural law as in the scientific method used duing the time of our Founding Fathers. Einstein did not disprove Newton's natural law rather the modern physicist translated it from the universal view to a relative view.
But things have gone down hill since Einstein. The use of theory has corrupted science to that of a sophisticated method, a criteria that has shunned following after a philosophy for a system that does not hold to one formal Truth, but many. Yet, the difference between a scientist and a wizard is that the latter did not hold to any philosophy. Indeed, modern science has gone back to catering to tyranny as the wizard at one time catered to the king.
As the use of theory has become corrupted, the scientists themselves have rebelled against the people as they have become shaggy haired and bearded, while, as it benefits them greatly to do so, they have also chosen to flirt with the International Community instead of serving the long suffering nations and the social contract they have established between themselves and tyranny.

Just a note, when you say "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" you're now talking about dialectical thinking, Socrates, Plato, Marx, Engels, and Franklyn Institute... among others. Further, I would say things have been going downhill since Athenian Democracy was overtaken.

But I agree, the use of theory has resulted in the weaponization of all elements within society, including so-called "sciences".

Problems emerge when profitable lies are told as noble ones.

I think all Noblie Lies are for purposes of power, and profit is a means to THAT end.

The Truth is not something we can lose. So, we have to be deceived into thinking that we don't have it.
Take the Garden of Eden as an example. How did Eve rebel? Well, she rebelled against authority. How did Adam rebel? Well, he rebelled when he didn't take responsibility blaming Eve for the offense. So, as Christians, there has to be two offenses for us to fall out of paradise. One is to be rebellious to *authority while the other is to shirk **responsibility.
*According to Watchman Nee, the Chinese Christian minister, being submissive doesn't mean the same as being obedient. If a sister obeyed her husband, she would never meet with other Christians. Being submissive means that when her husband demands that she not meet with other Christians, that she bow to his authority while dressing herself up to meet with them anyway.
**The only way to stop the cycle of abuse is for one to take responsibility. Jesus took responsibility for our sins on the cross thus taking all the blame and putting an end to all abuse.

"The Simulacrum is Never What Hides the Truth, it is Truth that Hides the Fact that there is None. The Simulacrum is True "

Jean Baudrillard
Simulacrum & Simulation

Our Founding Fathers were Christians. This meant that they understood that a corrupt tyranny could never fix itself. In other words, tyranny is nothing more than good and bad guys working together to exploit rather than serve the masses. It isn't like "Wow, just yesterday the police started serving the gangs." The police have been serving the gangs forever just as the gangs have been serving the police. It's always been an organized crime as in "tyranny." Our Founding Father's purpose wasn't to create a perfect government but a more perfect government meaning establishing a "necessary tyranny" to serve the "Civil Purpose" of the people.
So, because a corrupt tyranny can never fix itself, light needs to be shined on the Truth! This Truth will expose their conscience and hold them accountable under God's judgement.

While I strongly agree with the sentiment here, we must first, ourselves, find that elusive truth. Problem is, I'm not sure I know what it is, and it is quite clear that no one here does either.

 

[theclip]

I think all Noblie Lies are for purposes of power, and profit is a means to THAT end.

I agree, but I was saying it in a broad sense like including the lies that our parents tell us etc.

It seems Aristotle tried to legitimize lying by the rulers/bureaucracy by dressing it as "noble", much like the patriot act which is there for "protection". Both are ways of introducing special measures into the system that can be used by secret tyrants, once approved by unsuspecting masses.

 

[InterestedParticipant]

I agree, but I was saying it in a broad sense like including the lies that our parents tell us etc.

It seems Aristotle tried to legitimize lying by the rulers/bureaucracy by dressing it as "noble", much like the patriot act which is there for "protection". Both are ways of introducing special measures into the system that can be used by secret tyrants, once approved by unsuspecting masses.

Sort of like telling the public that the Cryptocracy is trying to Save the Planet from Global Warming, when it's nothing more than a scam to control all living things on the planet while generating profit from that control.

Or, sort of like telling the American public that Vietnamese Communism was a threat of Asia, per the Domino theory. When in reality it was nothing more than to put pressure on China to enter the Globalist system, which they eventually did in a big way via GATT.

Or, sort of like telling the American public that we were going to war in Iraq to protect us from WMD's and Islamic Terrorists, when actually all we were doing was assimilating the Middle East into the Globalist system and deliberately destroying oil production in support of the current plan to de-industrialize the Globe, in part, by throttling fossil fuels.