Penn & Teller: Bullshit! - Alternative Medicine

[yongrel]

Another fantastic episode from everyone's favourite duo of libertarian magicians!

http://www.surfthechannel.com/info/television/Penn_&_Teller:_Bullshit!/48381/S1E2.html

Fair and biased, per usual

 

[LibertyOfOne]

Indeed. Too bad it does not focus on all those worthless supplements of which a majority don't hold up to their claims.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

wow, you see that guy that cracks baby bones? lol ha.

 

[thuja]

Indeed. Too bad it does not focus on all those worthless supplements of which a majority don't hold up to their claims.

like vitamin C made of corn, which is genetically modified, and E which is made of genetically modified soy, unless it states organic soy on the label. it is possible to get vitamin C made of cassava, but genetic modification of that is in the works, so check on that in the future. then there is the gelatin capsule from animal products, which could include the risk of prion disease.
there are whole food vitamins, and there is actual food, if you eat properly.
i do think vitamins are helpful if your diet is not complete, or if you have some health problem you are fixing. just inquire and get the best ones.
here's one: grownbynature.

 

[Kevlar]

I fucking HATE Penn & Teller.

They're either really ignorant or they're just a couple of corporate sellout whores.

They always have the absolute craziest nutjobs on their show and then use them to try and discredit a whole group of people.

You'd walk away from that show thinking all alternative healing people are completely out of their minds, when that is definitely not the case.

A raw food diet, yoga, etc, CAN heal all sorts of illnesses. If you address the CAUSE of the disease rather than just the symptoms of it, you DO see real results.

If you get any idea from that "Bullshit" show, more than likely, the exact opposite will be true.

Look to the internet for your answers.

-

 

[tmosley]

FYI vitamin C is vitamin C, Same with the rest of the alphabet. They are all relatively small molecules, so it doesn't matter where they come from. It is easy to test for structural regularity and purity, and it is done by all the manufacturers. If you buy something because it says "organic", you are throwing your money away.

 

[thuja]

FYI vitamin C is vitamin C, Same with the rest of the alphabet. They are all relatively small molecules, so it doesn't matter where they come from. It is easy to test for structural regularity and purity, and it is done by all the manufacturers. If you buy something because it says "organic", you are throwing your money away.

you should check on what is required to be labeled organic. NO genetically modified ingredients, no irradiation, no pesticides and chemicals.
therefore, organic ingredients are safer.
some vitamin C is made from cassava, rather than corn, so genetically modified C can be avoided. C from cassava is labeled as exactly that.

to use a product that is ALL organic, one would want vitamins from a company called firstorganics, which are labeled USDA organic. other companies will soon follow this example, and some label the individual ingredients as non gmo or organic.
i would not risk a "relatively small molecule" that was a gmo.

 

[tmosley]

I am a chemist, and have done quite a bit of work with vitamin C. If someone were to sell something that was different by a single chemical bond, it could not be called vitamin c, and would be removed from the market.

Genetic engineering modifies proteins. Vitamins are organic molecules, not proteins.

Vitamin C is vitamin C, no matter the source, just like water is water, or acetone is acetone, or N,N'-ethylenebis(stearamide) is N,N'-ethylenebis(stearamide).

I should have said if you buy a vitamin because it says "organic" on it you are throwing your money away. Foodstuffs and complex food derivatives may be affected, although this has yet to be shown.

 

[Banana]

Look to the internet for your answers.

Yeah, because we know that everything on Internet is true. Right? RIGHT?

 

[thuja]

I am a chemist, and have done quite a bit of work with vitamin C. If someone were to sell something that was different by a single chemical bond, it could not be called vitamin c, and would be removed from the market.

Genetic engineering modifies proteins. Vitamins are organic molecules, not proteins.

Vitamin C is vitamin C, no matter the source, just like water is water, or acetone is acetone, or N,N'-ethylenebis(stearamide) is N,N'-ethylenebis(stearamide).

I should have said if you buy a vitamin because it says "organic" on it you are throwing your money away. Foodstuffs and complex food derivatives may be affected, although this has yet to be shown.

i want my vitamins to supply nutrients like food does.chemically created ascorbic acid is, to me, not the same as vitamin C in food, which also contains bioflavonoids.
tell me where the genetically modified part of the corn used to make vitamin C goes. how do they make it disappear? are you certain it's not in there somewhere?
how about the genetically modified soy used for vitamin E or phosphatyidyl serine,etc.. or the gel caps they are contained in? where did they put the genetically modified part of the soy? i have seen nothing saying that it is removed sometime before it's sold to the consumer.
i am not going to risk consuming GE things, especially considering the research showing dangerous health effects resulting from gmos.
i am going to go squeeze some grapefruits, but if i did not have any, i would take vitamins from first organics or grownbynature, or foodform.

 

[thuja]

go ahead, mosley, convince me. i have oodles of ordinary ascorbic acid that i don't take. maybe i could open a roadside stand and sell it with advice, like lucy.

 

[amy31416]

i want my vitamins to supply nutrients like food does.chemically created ascorbic acid is, to me, not the same as vitamin C in food, which also contains bioflavonoids.
tell me where the genetically modified part of the corn used to make vitamin C goes. how do they make it disappear? are you certain it's not in there somewhere?
how about the genetically modified soy used for vitamin E or phosphatyidyl serine,etc.. or the gel caps they are contained in? where did they put the genetically modified part of the soy? i have seen nothing saying that it is removed sometime before it's sold to the consumer.
i am not going to risk consuming GE things, especially considering the research showing dangerous health effects resulting from gmos.
i am going to go squeeze some grapefruits, but if i did not have any, i would take vitamins from first organics or grownbynature, or foodform.

That is vitamin C, whether you extract it from rose hips, oranges or if I make it in a lab. There is no difference between vitamin C from genetically modified food, organic food or if it's cooked up in a lab. You see, vitamin C has zero genetic material. It is a clearly defined molecule and all other substances, in a good quality supplement, are removed.

So, that said, what is possibly legitimate to be concerned about is what other fillers or bulking agents are used in your supplement of choice. Check the label. The only difference to your body in taking it in supplement form, is that food acts as a time-release agent. The body gets rid of vitamin C quickly, so to emulate a more natural mode of uptake, take small amounts all during the day.

Be smart, don't waste your money. There are some foods that are worth the extra money to buy organic (milk, lettuces and others), there are some that make no sense to buy organic (bananas, oranges and others.)

 

[thuja]

That is vitamin C, whether you extract it from rose hips, oranges or if I make it in a lab. There is no difference between vitamin C from genetically modified food, organic food or if it's cooked up in a lab. You see, vitamin C has zero genetic material. It is a clearly defined molecule and all other substances, in a good quality supplement, are removed.

So, that said, what is possibly legitimate to be concerned about is what other fillers or bulking agents are used in your supplement of choice. Check the label. The only difference to your body in taking it in supplement form, is that food acts as a time-release agent. The body gets rid of vitamin C quickly, so to emulate a more natural mode of uptake, take small amounts all during the day.

Be smart, don't waste your money. There are some foods that are worth the extra money to buy organic (milk, lettuces and others), there are some that make no sense to buy organic (bananas, oranges and others.)

i consider it wise use of my money not to support monsanto and relatives, and i think that will become more obvoious to everyone, hopefully before it is too late.

why is ascorbic acid or chemical vitamin C said to be different from natural vitamin C? is it just because it is missing the bioflavonoids? and vitamin E? is that because of missing tocotrienols? how are the gmos kept out of the soy gelcaps?

 

[amy31416]

i consider it wise use of my money not to support monsanto and relatives, and i think that will become more obvoious to everyone, hopefully before it is too late.

I happen to agree on Monsanto, not particularly the most ethical company in the world.

why is ascorbic acid or chemical vitamin C said to be different from natural vitamin C? is it just because it is missing the bioflavonoids? and vitamin E? is that because of missing tocotrienols? how are the gmos kept out of the soy gelcaps?

Ascorbic acid is vitamin C. There is no difference between chemical vit C and natural. The only difference is what the manufacturer leaves in your supplement.

Bioflavonoids are plant pigments. There may be some unproven health benefit to them, not sure--they certainly don't seem to be harmful. Tocotrienols are in the vitamin E family--not harmful unless in high concentration (they are fat soluble as opposed to vitamin C being water soluble.)

As far as genetically modified foods in the soy gelcaps, can't help you there, you'll have to do the research. I'm sure there are companies that sell non-GM gelcaps.

At this point, you just have to do the research yourself on which company you trust and want to go with. But don't fall for "organic" or "non-GM" vitamin C--you just might be getting bamboozled.

 

[youhaveitinspades]

I have a degree in biochemistry and there is no such thing as "organic" or "inorganic" Vitamin C. The only difference would be in the production process. So there is no benifit health-wise to choose an organic vitamin.

However, it is perfectly fine to choose an "organic" vitamin for moral reasons, such as using your $$ to show you support farm/extraction companies as opposed to chemical companies or genetically modified yeast production. Keep in mind that the end product is absolutely identical and there is absolutely no health effects from product molecules from genetically modified bioreactor production.

Also different brands of vitamin C supplements have different adulterants, such as the bioflavenoids mentioned before, which allow such things as timed release. The presence/amount/type could also guide your choice.

Hope this was helpful. I've personally genetically modified bacteria many times and the science is not nearly as scary as it sounds.

 

[thuja]

here is a book that should explain what i mean: the vitamin myth exposed by clement
it will be sold very soon.
meanwhie, go to www.organicconsumers.org and click on" nutricon" which is their campaign concerning chemical vitamins vs organic.

 

[thuja]

I have a degree in biochemistry and there is no such thing as "organic" or "inorganic" Vitamin C. The only difference would be in the production process. So there is no benifit health-wise to choose an organic vitamin.

However, it is perfectly fine to choose an "organic" vitamin for moral reasons, such as using your $$ to show you support farm/extraction companies as opposed to chemical companies or genetically modified yeast production. Keep in mind that the end product is absolutely identical and there is absolutely no health effects from product molecules from genetically modified bioreactor production.

Also different brands of vitamin C supplements have different adulterants, such as the bioflavenoids mentioned before, which allow such things as timed release. The presence/amount/type could also guide your choice.

Hope this was helpful. I've personally genetically modified bacteria many times and the science is not nearly as scary as it sounds.

yes, very, but i am curious about genetically modified bacteria, and wonder if any of the probiotics that are popular usually contain them, such as primal defense from garden of life, for example.
is the saccharomyces cerveviciae (spelling?) used to produce the fermented vitamins usually genetically modified as well?
why would bioflavonoids, naturally occuring companions to vitamin C, be considered adulterants, or cause timed release?

 

[amy31416]

yes, very, but i am curious about genetically modified bacteria, and wonder if any of the probiotics that are popular usually contain them, such as primal defense from garden of life, for example.
is the saccharomyces cerveviciae (spelling?) used to produce the fermented vitamins usually genetically modified as well?
why would bioflavonoids, naturally occuring companions to vitamin C, be considered adulterants, or cause timed release?

I've mutated bacteria as well, and I imagine that there might be some mutated bacteria used in foods, but if you're gung ho on making sure you don't consume them, you have to check each one out individually.

saccharomyces cerevisiae is not one of them, it is actually yeast. The yeast used in ancient times for baking and brewing. Bioflavanoids are not considered adulterants, and since there are so many different types, you really have to do the research on it yourself. There's tons of sites out there with info on them, but most of them are trying to sell you a product, so here's a good place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid

 

[thuja]

I've mutated bacteria as well, and I imagine that there might be some mutated bacteria used in foods, but if you're gung ho on making sure you don't consume them, you have to check each one out individually.

saccharomyces cerevisiae is not one of them, it is actually yeast. The yeast used in ancient times for baking and brewing. Bioflavanoids are not considered adulterants, and since there are so many different types, you really have to do the research on it yourself. There's tons of sites out there with info on them, but most of them are trying to sell you a product, so here's a good place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid

thanks! i find a lot of useful info at www.nutraingredients.com and related sites. creative uses of bacteria are often mentioned here. to find out what individual companies are using is extremely difficult, as you know, since they often do not tell the consumer, citing their right to use "proprietary" formulas. especially garden of life, and new chapter, who do not tell anything useful, but seem to have very good products.
the other companies that ferment vitamins, grownbynature and foodform are saying what you are saying, so i am glad it's just an ordinary yeast that is used. these two companies are still honest.
i did not think bioflavonoids were adulterants, and am aware, as you say, that there are many, and they occur naturally in foods, along with vitamin C.
this whole business of finding out exactly what is in supplements is a difficult one, as companies are, first of all, selling something.
i used to take tons of supplements, and considered myself fairly well educated in this area, but i am thinking that the newer view, that chemical isolates are not as helpful as vitamins in their complete form, (as found i actual food, and whole food type supplements) is probably more accurate.
that's why i look forward to a book called "the vitamin myth exposed", hoping to see some good explanations.
meanwhile, i am glad to know vitamin C is just that. now i am trying to find out more about aminos, and things like human hair and turkey feathers used to make things like NAC and taurine.

 

[Flash]

I can't stand Penn and Teller. Look up their Ghandi episode (their source was a sikh man with a bias) or their immigration episode (where they call minutemen a bunch of racists and try to paint white people in a bad picture). So I can't really trust that show on anything.