Paul Krugman: FED Policy Does Not Effect Food & Oil Prices, The Dollar Hasn't Gone Down...

This is where we have to use some basic logic. The beanie baby bubble happened because people thought the beanie babies would rise in price in the future. It was a classic speculative bubble. It could have happened with media publicity in any era, regardless of what was going on with the money supply.

What you basically described is how all bubbles work. And I don't disagree, except for the money supply part.

I do not know the extent of the beanie baby bubble, but I basically view the causes of the beanie baby bubble and the dotcom bubble to basically be one in the same because both bubbles occurred was at the exact same time. I'm sure that many speculators who invested in dotcom stocks were investing in beanie babies as well.

However, many speculators don't necessarily speculate with money from their savings accounts. They speculate with money they received via low interest loans that they couldn't otherwise receive if it wasn't for the fed driving down interest rates via increasing the money supply. This is probably the single biggest factor when it comes to prices in asset bubble industries rising at astronomical rates. If speculators did not have access to that easy credit, prices would not risen anywhere near as fast, and the bubble wouldn't have been anywhere near as big as it was.
 
The point is that I am trying to point out a flaw in the logic in a way that can bridge the gap here. If a bubble can happen without the Fed, then how to we know the Fed caused the housing bubble? What if it was 5% the Fed or 1% the Fed and the bubble could have happened even without this push? You need to have some way of determining this before you say that the Fed is primarily responsible. Its just not logically thorough to do otherwise.

Well, that's the problem with centralized planning and fixing/deciding interest rates rather than letting a free, non-centralized and fully accountable market assume all risks and establish those naturally. It wouldn't matter if a bubble could or couldn't happen. Only those involved would be holding the bag.

I'm not interested in looking at the remains of a man mauled to death and torn to shreds by crocodile and wondering if drowning, hypothermia, cancer or something else might have killed him if the croc hadn't got to him. What's the point? If you want to make the point that price inflation, the business cycle with its attendant bubbles, booms and busts, etc., would all have happened anyway, be my guest. That won't be much of a case in favor of the Fed for most of the people posting here.

Your point that it can't be disentangled (in theory) to the point of knowing anything with certainty is taken. Stipulated even. Which is why I want to completely disentangle it IN REALITY by ending the Fed, getting sound money in place, and if I had my way, ending fractional reserve lending of anything used by the public as money. Or, at the very least, making BAILMENTS rather than DEPOSITS the default legal presumption for anyone taking their money to the bank.
 
I don't disagree. Private banking is a problem...but the Fed is the ultimate enabler...no Fed means the banking system would be quickly corrected by a true free market using 'destructive capitalism' (as Santorum likes to call it :P)

Private banking is only a problem because they expect the government to bail them out if they mess up, which essentially provides banks with a greater incentive to make high-risk investments that they would not have otherwise done had they believed they would be on the hook if those investments went bust. This was a problem, even during the pre-fed era.
 
Well, that's the problem with centralized planning and fixing/deciding interest rates rather than letting a free, non-centralized and fully accountable market assume all risks and establish those naturally. It wouldn't matter if a bubble could or couldn't happen. Only those involved would be holding the bag.

I'm not interested in looking at the remains of a man mauled to death and torn to shreds by crocodile and wondering if drowning, hypothermia, cancer or something else might have killed him if the croc hadn't got to him. What's the point? If you want to make the point that price inflation, the business cycle with its attendant bubbles, booms and busts, etc., would all have happened anyway, be my guest. That won't be much of a case in favor of the Fed for most of the people posting here.

Your point that it can't be disentangled (in theory) to the point of knowing anything with certainty is taken. Stipulated even. Which is why I want to completely disentangle it IN REALITY by ending the Fed, getting sound money in place, and if I had my way, ending fractional reserve lending of anything used by the public as money. Or, at the very least, making BAILMENTS rather than DEPOSITS the default legal presumption for anyone taking their money to the bank.

I think it can be disentangled personally. I think all bubbles happen primarily because of bubble psychology and speculative fever and the Fed has very little impact. People have unrealistic expectations of future asset price appreciation that aren't linked to fundamentals. It happens in countries and time periods without central banking and it happens for products like beanie babies, which we are pretty sure aren't propped up by Fed money printing.

My point was just that your logic is internally contradictory because you claim the bubble was caused by the Fed, you admit both that bubbles can happen without the Fed and you don't provide the proof that the Fed and not those other causes were responsible for this particular bubble.
 
What you basically described is how all bubbles work. And I don't disagree, except for the money supply part.

I do not know the extent of the beanie baby bubble, but I basically view the causes of the beanie baby bubble and the dotcom bubble to basically be one in the same because both bubbles occurred was at the exact same time. I'm sure that many speculators who invested in dotcom stocks were investing in beanie babies as well.

However, many speculators don't necessarily speculate with money from their savings accounts. They speculate with money they received via low interest loans that they couldn't otherwise receive if it wasn't for the fed driving down interest rates via increasing the money supply. This is probably the single biggest factor when it comes to prices in asset bubble industries rising at astronomical rates. If speculators did not have access to that easy credit, prices would not risen anywhere near as fast, and the bubble wouldn't have been anywhere near as big as it was.

So if two things happen at the same time, they always cause each other?
 
I think all bubbles happen primarily because...

...you claim the bubble was caused by...

...you don't provide the proof...

Meh, looks like neither of us can provide any proof, but you're wanting the burden to mine, given that I'm the one railing against the Fed, while you appear to be fine with it as the enthroned incumbent paradigm.

Plenty of other sound reasons to end the Fed - on principle, all normative, no proof required.
 
I never said they caused each other, I said they had the same cause... Easy credit.

Ya pardon my poor phrasing. The two things that I meant were monetary expansion and the bubble. I don't even think money was particularly loose in the late 90s because interest rates were rising but even if you think it was loose that doesn't mean what you are saying is true. Just because loose money happened at the same time as a bubble doesn't mean loose money caused the bubble. Its important to think about the mechanism. There were millions of other things going on at the time. Why money and not any of those?
 
Meh, looks like neither of us can provide any proof, but you're wanting the burden to mine, given that I'm the one railing against the Fed, while you appear to be fine with it as the enthroned incumbent paradigm.

Plenty of other sound reasons to end the Fed - on principle, all normative, no proof required.

Yes I understand what you are saying, both hypotheses are difficult to prove. I think comparatively, the bubble pyschology theory explains why speculative bubbles happen in particular asset markets better than the monetary theory, which would predict more widespread bubbles. It also explains why bubbles happen in time periods without a Fed or with tight money.

Another important thing is that loose money alone does not logically cause a bubble without the bubble pyschology element. If everyone understood why asset prices were rising and that it would be temporary, asset prices would plummet and there would be no bubble. You need the bubble psychology element to keep the ball rolling even if you think the initial push comes from monetary policy.
 
Krugman using the same faulty logic again... Because the dollar hasn't depreciated much against other currencies like the Euro than this means the dollar is not being devalued. The obvious counter is that EVERYBODY is inflating their currencies...so relative inflation is a poor measure when it comes to inflation.

For example the Euro's monetary base has doubled in the past 4 years...hardly a fair comparison for the dollar.

Of course Krugman won't bring up HOW inflation is measured (shadowstats.com has accurate numbers on this) nor will he properly factor in the dollar's role as a reserve currency.
Exactly. To be fair, he said that he was only speaking about the dollar vs other fiat currencies. He obfuscated, obviously, but this slight-of-hand does not make what he said false-just misleading (especially for people who aren't interested in economics). That said, if you were to try to pull such a trick in a professional or academic situation, it would probably get you in trouble. But syndicated talking heads aren't exactly held to high standards of integrity. ;)
 
Yes I understand what you are saying, both hypotheses are difficult to prove. I think comparatively, the bubble pyschology theory explains why speculative bubbles happen in particular asset markets better than the monetary theory, which would predict more widespread bubbles. It also explains why bubbles happen in time periods without a Fed or with tight money.

Another important thing is that loose money alone does not logically cause a bubble without the bubble pyschology element. If everyone understood why asset prices were rising and that it would be temporary, asset prices would plummet and there would be no bubble. You need the bubble psychology element to keep the ball rolling even if you think the initial push comes from monetary policy.

See, then we do have a chicken/egg question, as I would argue that loose, cheap idle available money is strong incentive for speculation. Long before the housing bubble went on crack, Ron Paul was predicting that low interest rates were going to lead to a bubble, and Paul Krugman was going so far as to suggest that Alan Greenspan "...create a housing bubble to replace the NASDAQ bubble." (see below)

Incidentally, it appears that Paul Krugman actually believes that the Fed is fully empowered and capable of deliberately causing bubbles. .

August 2, 2002: "To fight this recession...Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the NASDAQ bubble."
- Paul Krugman

May 27, 2005:
"Now the question is what can replace the housing bubble...but the Fed does appear to be running out of bubbles."
- Paul Krugman



Of course he should be careful what he wishes for, because he got it. (uses the word "bubblicious" even)

JUMP TO 0:54



Like Uncle Remus said of Brer Rabbit, who had just been snared in Brer Fox' rope trap attached to a hickory sappling, "Well, suh, fus Brer Rabbit was skeered he wuz gonna fall. Den he wuz skeered he wadn't gonna fall!"

Krugman actually took both sides of the pending bubble crash argument, but the above clip shows that he's obviously concerned that housing prices "have a long way to fall", which I think is as close as he got to actually predicting the bubble collapse without coming out and declaring, as Ron Paul and Austrians would, that a bust was inevitable.

JUMP TO 5:05 - In the next clip he actually says that he blames Alan Greenspan and Phil Gramm for the housing bubble.



One thing I think can safely be said about all bubbles in terms of the psychology element is a kind of normalcy bias that is associated with them. I think of this loosely as Momentum Normalcy Bias, the feeling that what goes up can only continue going up, based on the fact that it's all that has been observed. And it doesn't take long for that to set in. It seems a very Keynesian sentiment to me, which to me is reminiscent of people who believe in perpetual motion machines, or anything that claims to defy an elementary law physics, like the second law of thermodynamics. Where that plays into the Fed, commercial banks, and even Krugman is that none of them seem to be immune. They're all affected by it, even to the point of looking for that next big FAITH/BELIEF BASED growing value comet illusion to hitch a ride on, and desperate to keep the euphoria alive once it starts.

And what else are they going to do, in a financial musical chairs game paradox where all the chairs have been removed and exponential expansion is both a physical impossibility and the only way to keep the system alive a little longer?
 
Ya pardon my poor phrasing. The two things that I meant were monetary expansion and the bubble. I don't even think money was particularly loose in the late 90s because interest rates were rising but even if you think it was loose that doesn't mean what you are saying is true.

Interest rates have been pretty damn low for the past 20 years.

Just because loose money happened at the same time as a bubble doesn't mean loose money caused the bubble. Its important to think about the mechanism. There were millions of other things going on at the time. Why money and not any of those?

Unless that beanie babies bubble was like those Pokemon cards I used to collect when I was 10, and their value dropped when people were no longer interested in pokemon cards, then that's one thing... And if that was the case... Then the economy wouldn't even be remotely affected, so who cares????

But if so many people are investing so much money that prices rise at such astronomical rates to the point that when it crashes, the entire economy goes into the shitter, than that's impossible unless there was an increase in the money supply. If that's not the case, then where did they get the capital to invest in those markets from?
 
Interest rates have been pretty damn low for the past 20 years.



Unless that beanie babies bubble was like those Pokemon cards I used to collect when I was 10, and their value dropped when people were no longer interested in pokemon cards, then that's one thing... And if that was the case... Then the economy wouldn't even be remotely affected, so who cares????

But if so many people are investing so much money that prices rise at such astronomical rates to the point that when it crashes, the entire economy goes into the shitter, than that's impossible unless there was an increase in the money supply. If that's not the case, then where did they get the capital to invest in those markets from?

I don't see how the cause of the bubble has anything to do with the magnitude of the effect on the economy when it crashes. Explain that.
 
I don't see how the cause of the bubble has anything to do with the magnitude of the effect on the economy when it crashes. Explain that.

I thought he alluded to the reason when he wrote "where did they get the capital to invest in those markets...?"

Saying "cause of the bubble" is another way of saying "source of the bubble". If a source of water loss and localized damage is a defective bottom of a certain brand of portable swimming pools that are cracking everywhere, it will be naturally different in magnitude than if the source of water loss and damage is a defective bottom of a dam that breaks.

Privately accumulated capital was the primary source of demand funding for beanie babies. Some savings gets wiped out with no discernible domino effect in the economy when that particular market crashes, but nobody rushes in to rescue beanie baby owners, or replenish their lost savings at taxpayer expense. The entire Fed system, on the other hand, was the source of demand funding for the housing bubble. So not only are the banks and homeowners affected when housing prices fall, the domino effect is felt by everyone else. That's enormous magnitude - due to the source, or cause - regardless what happens next. That magnitude only increases as bailouts, QE, etc., as more of the demand funding source pumps more of the same fuel onto the fire that is already out of control, rather than let it burn as it would in a normal free market where everyone is accountable and responsible for their own risks and losses.
 
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I thought he alluded to the reason when he wrote "where did they get the capital to invest in those markets...?"

Saying "cause of the bubble" is another way of saying "source of the bubble". If a source of water loss and localized damage is a defective bottom of a certain brand of portable swimming pools that are cracking everywhere, it will be naturally different in magnitude than if the source of water loss and damage is a defective bottom of a dam that breaks.

Privately accumulated capital was the primary source of demand funding for beanie babies. Some savings gets wiped out with no discernible domino effect in the economy when that particular market crashes, but nobody rushes in to rescue beanie baby owners, or replenish their lost savings at taxpayer expense. The entire Fed system, on the other hand, was the source of demand funding for the housing bubble. So not only are the banks and homeowners affected when housing prices fall, the domino effect is felt by everyone else. That's enormous magnitude - due to the source, or cause - regardless what happens next. That magnitude only increases as bailouts, QE, etc., as more of the demand funding source pumps more of the same fuel onto the fire that is already out of control, rather than let it burn as it would in a normal free market where everyone is accountable and responsible for their own risks and losses.

This seems an awful lot like question begging to me. If we assume that the bad bubbles are caused by the Fed and the benign bubbles are caused by other things, then of course the Fed looks bad. For someone that doesn't think the Fed is the primary source of either bubble, this isn't a convincing argument.
It also seems weird to say that a bailout implies something about who created the bubble in the first place, because there is no logical reason for that. If the housing crisis was localized to sub prime mortgages and we didn't have major bankruptcies at major financial institutions, there wouldn't have been a big bailout. To me the severity of the crisis is a sufficient statistic for whether there will be government intervention. Even a privately caused bad crisis would result is a bailout. Its weird to claim that the Fed was the source of demand funding for the housing crisis because people all over the world bought these mortgage backed securities and CDO tranches.

The lender of last resort point is more troublesome because the Fed does encourage banks to have more risky balance sheets. This is a moral hazard point which I agree with but different than the money printing point which i disagree with.
 
This seems an awful lot like question begging to me. If we assume that the bad bubbles are caused by the Fed and the benign bubbles are caused by other things, then of course the Fed looks bad.

Replace qualitative words 'bad' and 'benign' with more quantitative words like 'large' and 'small'. Can we assume that large bubbles are caused (facilitated/encouraged) by the Fed while small bubbles may be caused by other things? That would be question begging if it wasn't at least followed by a plausible explanation given for the assumption.

The tendency for speculative bubble formation is part of human behavior and always exists, with or without the Fed. It is safe to assume that everyone wants to buy with the hope or expectation of later selling for a higher price than what they paid. If that tendency is what is meant by "cause" of the bubble, then the Fed is off scott free, because the Fed is not responsible for human attitudes, tendencies or behavior.

What we are asking, however, is not whether a tendency for bubble formation exists, but "What is the likelihood that the same housing bubble would have existed in the absence of the Fed"?

Here is where I liken the Fed to a drug manufacturer, with banks acting as dealers, neither of whom can be said to be responsible for the effects of drugs on a human being. Drug manufacturers and dealers don't "cause addictions". They only facilitate. Without a manufacturer and supplier, willing facilitators, some other mechanism would have to exist for the addiction to spread.

What we're really asking is whether an ordinary free market with sound currency, in the absence of a central bank, would have facilitated such a bubble. Would the interest rates have been naturally low throughout the entire market, just as they were artificially kept low by the central bank? Would credit be naturally relaxed throughout that market in the same way that they were artificially relaxed? Would banks have taken the same risks in the complete absence of the possibility of bailouts or guarantees by a lender of last resort, or government as a taxpayer-backed guarantor? While nobody can answer with absolute certainty, I think the common sense answer is a resounding no to all of these questions. A free (and fully accountable) market with ALL participants acting without safety nets of any kind, would have been naturally much, much more cautious on the whole.

Of course, in a free market, privately accumulated capital (savings that isn't eroded away and taxed out of existence) would have been a viable competitor of funding from lending institutions. However, in each and every case, there would still be no bailouts, guarantees or other safety nets involved. If you're speculating on something as big as real estate, and knowing that a good portion of the market is only lending or spending what they actually have, the entire velocity of transactions would have been much slower, and far more cautious all around.

I am one of those who believes that wars and speculative bubbles would not have the same magnitude or the same dynamic at all were it not for central banking and a deliberately debauched currency. Not when people are transacting in what they actually have - and not just the easy access to promises, and promises of greater short-run returns based on near-future expectations.

That is where the lender of last resort point coincides with the money printing point for me. But that's only because I believe both are what give rise to the illusion that there is a safety net, which in turn emboldens, encourages and facilitates bubbles on magnitudes and scales that would not otherwise exist, regardless of human tendencies.
 
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