Pat Buchanan: How Free Trade Destroys America and Promotes Globalism

Actually Ron Paul does believe in Tariffs: He says, "All free trade really needs is two words: Low tariffs. " http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2007/tst090907.htm

Our Founding fathers used Tariffs because we had become too dependent on England for goods. The Tariffs were imposed on all imported goods to encourage the development of manufactured goods in the U.S. It worked.

thanks for the link... i did not realize he believed in tariffs!

your description of our Founders using tariffs makes perfect sense, as it will help our manufacturing base in our country become strong again.
 
If you print and spend money, then you don't need to produce to consume.

For me it seems to make the discussion of the international trade deficit a bit complicated to discuss other variables (like debt and the printing of money). To be clear, I don't at all believe in printing money like we have been and debasing our currency: it's destroying the dollar. But we wouldn't be in this kind of debt if we still had good jobs here.

I'm not sure how your statement relates to international trade, but if this week I pay $100 for my groceries, then all of a sudden the FED creates zillions of dollars out of thin air, then each dollar is worth less so the next week I would pay, say, $115 for the same groceries. So I would have to produce more in order to pay for my groceries the second week.

We would be one step closer to out of control inflation without the China peg, and without purchases of government debt. Currently, the currency is being propped up by foreign governments. In the absence of this intervention, the federal government would be forced to choose between default and hyperinflation.

i don't like any of this stuff, particularly their pegging their currency to the dollar because that means we are forever slaves to being in debt to them-- we cannot compete against them if they don't allow their currency to float. it would be better to be free, feel our pain, and slowly try to rebuild our manufacturing base. Because of this entangling alliance we are suffocating. so disallow the peg.

at the same time I like Ron Paul's idea of starting with a new, competing, currency in different states (and if it works in those states to slowly start using it throughout the country to replace the dollar). It will be painful, but we have to do it and the sooner we untangle ourselves from China, the better.

It's better than bogging down every business with reams of paperwork. Small business in this country is literally being buried in red tape. It's not about practical measures to conserve the environment, it's about generating money and power for bureaucrats. And the big players, with teams of lawyers, as well as the federal government itself, skirts the law anyway. There are piles of horror stories stemming from interactions with the EPA, the army corps of engineers, etc.

what a mess. I know my dad was telling me an industry close to where he lives just put in scrubbers in their smokestacks. It was an investment and it costed them, but he said the results are supposedly remarkable. Rather than people from all over the area where he lives be sick in the future from air pollution and have to file lawsuits, it makes it a whole lot easier for that manufacturer to simply have put in scrubbers.

i don't know what the answer is except that the government causing all the piles of horror stories is just simply bad government. I don't think that necessarily means we should get rid of the government and let it all go to private lawsuits and people getting sick. Instead I think we should make sure the government has clear, focused, but limited powers. And I think we should replace bad government with good government when it comes to conservation. i don't want to see my country become a cesspool like China just to be able to compete with it.
 
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One major problem that stems from this is that some people benefit from government money creation and some don't. Who gets to spend it first, when it's most valued, and who gets stuck holding the Old Maid card when it vanishes? It's usually the little guy – the middle-class guy – who gets hurt when this happens. And in the U.S., the middle class is contracting. The financial gyrations we're going through are destroying the middle class, which naïvely believes that traditional American values still hold sway and that their government is honest. The lower class has long since lost any values, and the upper class is way too cynical and self-interested to really care. Most middle-class people will end up joining one or the other of these two classes, and that'll be a moral disaster for the country.

Doug Casey
 
It's discouraging to see Hamilton and Lincoln-style mercantilism being promoted in RPF of all places. I think I'm gonna quit reading these forums.
 
It's discouraging to see Hamilton and Lincoln-style mercantilism being promoted in RPF of all places. I think I'm gonna quit reading these forums.

After 10 posts? What? Can't stand to read that with which you don't agree?
 
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=167012&highlight=sratiug+amendment

Please join me and others that have expressed their support for the following or a similar constitutional amendment.

Double Flat Tariff Only Amendment

1. All internal federal taxes and fees shall be replaced within a period of 11 years of ratification of this amendment by a flat across the board tariff applied equally to all goods and to all product sources. The tariff shall be set at the beginning of each year at a percentage sufficient to raise an amount of money equal to all projected federal government expenditures forecasted by the Congressional Budget Office for that year.

2. One year from ratification of this amendment a 10 year phaze in process will be enacted whereby each year the percentage of projected federal government expenditures raised by the tariff shall be 1 divided by the number of years remaining of the ten. For each of these same ten years all internal taxes and fees shall be reduced across the board by a percentage that will eliminate an equal amount of federal revenue.


All internal taxes inhibit free trade and subsidize foreign corporations, workers, and production because foreignors do not pay them. The double flat tariff simply eliminates subsidation of foreign workers, products and corporations, thus insuring free trade. So free traders should all support this amendment or something very similar.

-interesting idea... thanks for passing along...
 
For me it seems to make the discussion of the international trade deficit a bit complicated to discuss other variables (like debt and the printing of money). To be clear, I don't at all believe in printing money like we have been and debasing our currency: it's destroying the dollar. But we wouldn't be in this kind of debt if we still had good jobs here.

It's just the reverse. We don't have the good jobs because of debt and distortions of the credit markets.

I'm not sure how your statement relates to international trade, but if this week I pay $100 for my groceries, then all of a sudden the FED creates zillions of dollars out of thin air, then each dollar is worth less so the next week I would pay, say, $115 for the same groceries. So I would have to produce more in order to pay for my groceries the second week.

If the Fed creates zillions of dollars, who spends it? The government? The banks? How do they spend it? That's right, they hire people. People that are no longer working in manufacturing.

Imagine that we all worked in manufacturing, with no trade deficit. We import as much as we export. $100 buys an average worker's day's labor, and $300 buys a day of labor from a plant manager. Now imagine the government prints up a ton of money. It suddenly is able to offer contractors and employees $120 a day to process paperwork, manufacture war supplies, build mars rovers, etc. Imagine the banks, through the federal reserve, also get a great deal of this money. They are now able to offer the best and brightest $400 a day to sit in an office and dream up investment schemes.

Do you think manufacturing would drop off?

Now imagine that average people start borrowing more and more. Suddenly, Matilda, down the street, who had lived in a small apartment, gets a loan to buy a house. Imagine there are millions of Matildas. Suddenly, workers can be hired at $150 a day to build homes. More quit their jobs at plants. And more plants, unable to offer the higher wages and still be able to compete, close.

Imagine millions of Matildas begin to finance a great deal of consumption on their credit cards. Now, there are more high paying jobs at department stores, hair salons, and golf courses.

Suddenly, we have a service based economy. It seems prosperous, because of all the money that keeps pouring in from individual borrowers, from municipal and state borrowers, from the Federal Reserve's printing of money, and from Federal borrowing. What happens when people stop borrowing, or government stops printing? A crash. The bottom falls out of the false economy, and we all have to get real jobs.

The new money is coming from borrowers, governments, and banks, not from real, sustainable sources -- other producers, both here and overseas. That's the problem.

i don't like any of this stuff, particularly their pegging their currency to the dollar because that means we are forever slaves to being in debt to them-- we cannot compete against them if they don't allow their currency to float. it would be better to be free, feel our pain, and slowly try to rebuild our manufacturing base. Because of this entangling alliance we are suffocating. so disallow the peg.

I agree, I'd rather they pull the plug, so we can get the pain over with, and get back to a real economy.

at the same time I like Ron Paul's idea of starting with a new, competing, currency in different states (and if it works in those states to slowly start using it throughout the country to replace the dollar). It will be painful, but we have to do it and the sooner we untangle ourselves from China, the better.

I think alternative currencies are key, especially metals. If, to any extent, we can develop a real economy based on production, and trade in a stable currency like silver, we'll be able to avoid the worst of an eventual collapse.


what a mess. I know my dad was telling me an industry close to where he lives just put in scrubbers in their smokestacks. It was an investment and it costed them, but he said the results are supposedly remarkable. Rather than people from all over the area where he lives be sick in the future from air pollution, it makes it a whole lot easier for that manufacturer to simply have put in scrubbers.

Good for them! I would say that if they pollute the area, they should have to compensate the people who live there. That would motivate them even more to use pollution control measures.

i don't know what the answer is except that the government causing all the piles of horror stories is just simply bad government. I don't think that necessarily means we should get rid of the government and let it all go to private lawsuits and people getting sick.

People get sick now! And if the companies get good lawyers, they can go on polluting. Don't you agree that if your land, water, or air gets polluted, you should be compensated? This is the best way to hold companies accountable.

I'm just saying, replace regulation with compensation for victims. This means that the money will go where it should -- to the victims -- and that instead of companies working to fulfill some bureaucrat's wishes, they'll be working to ensure they don't harm others. They'll also be able to figure out new and innovative ways to reduce pollution, rather than just checking the box on some form.

Isn't that what we want?

Instead I think we should make sure the government has clear, focused, but limited powers. And I think we should replace bad government with good government when it comes to conservation.

And I want nonstop rainbows and gumdrops. When power is placed in the hands of a few, they'll abuse it. It's always been the case -- the bureaucrats are just as self interested as the industrialists. They want money and power.

i don't want to see my country become a cesspool like China just to be able to compete with it.

Where did I support no accountability for polluters?

Actual liability for harm is the last thing polluters want. They can easily hire teams of lawyers, skirt the law, and grease the hands of key government officials. Reversing the decision the government made during the industrial revolution, to refuse to allow victims of pollution to seek compensation, would be far more effective.
 
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will Americans wake up in time to do something about this? only time will tell.

People don't wake up until it effects them directly and personally. And often those who are effected don't know exactly what happened. Those who blame a situation like this on one and only one cause are most definitely wrong.
 
thanks for the link... i did not realize he believed in tariffs!

your description of our Founders using tariffs makes perfect sense, as it will help our manufacturing base in our country become strong again.

This is absolutely unbelievable. Tariffs are a horrible thing for our economy. They go against everything that Austrian economics stands for. Also, Our founders were not for protectionist tariffs. As a matter of fact, Jefferson was very much against it. People like Hamilton, Clay, and Lincoln supported tariffs to help promote the American system. Tariffs were one of the biggest reasons that the South left the Union. First off, did you even read that link from Ron Paul. He was not supporting tariffs! He even said that tariffs only hurt people by giving them higher prices. All a tariff does is force people to pay higher prices for goods. For example, say that a chinese company can give us a $5 shirt and American businesses can only do it at $8 dollars. Then if the government charges a $4 tariff on Chinese shirts to put the price of Chinese shirts at $9 dollars, of course people will buy the now cheaper $8 shirt. That would help the American business, but at what cost?! The American people now are forced to pay more money for their shirts. This means that they are not able to spend that extra money on something else, like a pair of pants. So tariffs would hurt the buyer, the Chinese company, other companies that will now not get that extra money that is now spent on American shirts, and employees that are put out of work at the pants store because now they are not making as much because all of that extra money is going to the shirts. The only group that benefits is in fact that American shirt company. As a matter of fact, in the long run even the shirt company will be hurt because the tariff will eventually make America more poor and will eat at their profits. If a company cannot make goods at a competitive price, it should fail. The tariffs of the 1800s failed by the way, they did not work. They caused the South to be overly burdened with unfair tariffs at the benefit of the North and eventually led to the War of Southern Independence and the eventual increase in the government that is robbing us of our liberties. America needs true free trade, which is trade without barriers or tariffs.
 
thank you very much for all of your responses; i will have to think about all of this.

:)

I'm not a great communicator, so thanks for bearing with me. This is the best way I find to think about it: How can a trade deficit exist, if savings and debt are stable, and no new money is being printed? It's impossible. The only way for more goods to flow in than out, is for more money to flow out than in. And that can't happen without debt or inflation.
 
:)

I'm not a great communicator, so thanks for bearing with me. This is the best way I find to think about it: How can a trade deficit exist, if savings and debt are stable, and no new money is being printed? It's impossible. The only way for more goods to flow in than out, is for more money to flow out than in. And that can't happen without debt or inflation.

You did a good job. But even shorter form:
It is cheaper to print dollars than it is to manufacture and create "stuff". As long as we can do that and the world accepts it, manufacturing won't be coming back to this country, no matter how high the tariffs get.
 
:)

I'm not a great communicator, so thanks for bearing with me. This is the best way I find to think about it: How can a trade deficit exist, if savings and debt are stable, and no new money is being printed? It's impossible. The only way for more goods to flow in than out, is for more money to flow out than in. And that can't happen without debt or inflation.

Trade deficits are fiction. They DO NOT exist, moreover if they did why the HELL would one complain? If a trade deficit were reality, you would be getting MORE in return than what you are sending out, it would be like going to buy a new car and the dealer gives you two for the price of one. Would you honestly complain???

As Bastiat asked:

"If we exported nothing and imported everything, why would this be bad? You either really hate receiving Christmas gifts or you don't really believe that trade deficits, if they exist, are bad. And what reason do you have to believe that foreigners are, or have ever, been inclined to give us something and take nothing in return? None, that's what."

I borrow from a friend who clarifies better than I:

Tell me, when shopping, do you choose the more expensive or the less expensive of two otherwise equal goods? Leave aside nationality for the moment; we can even assume that we're looking at the same US-made item, available in two different stores. A common enough occurrence, is it not? Well, which do you pick? Do you pick the more expensive or the less expensive one?

To ask it is to answer it. You economize. No sophistry can obscure this fundamental fact of human action: faced with scarcity, the fact that we do not live in an Eden of immediate and total satisfaction of all our whims, we must economize. And for what reason? So we can satisfy more of our wants. Trivially: that which is left over after the satisfaction of one want may be applied to the satisfaction of another want.

I shan't go into economizing with quality, except to say that the same principle holds true. You could devote your whole yearly income to buying a Mercedes (or Aston-Martin or Bugatti or whatever - fill in your pay grade as applicable), but you don't; you are happy enough to make do with 'good enough' satisfaction of one want in order to be able to satisfy others alongside it.

There can be no objection to any of the above, for merely to raise an objection is to prove my point: it cannot be done without economizing your use of scarce resources.

The application to international trade should be immediately obvious, but just in case, I shall belabor the point.

At once, on the face of the above, it's clear that buying a cheaper foreign good allows more immediate want satisfaction than buying a more expensive domestic good. Perhaps you can buy your wife a cheap foreign shiny and take her to a swanky dinner, or you can buy your wife an expensive domestic shiny and sit at home and hope she doesn't mind ramen.

Ah, but you object, this ignores the longer-term consequences! Domestic shiny makers will go out of business, and those unemployed shiny makers will quit buying and will starve and the whole economy'll...

Yes, they'll go out of business? So what? If they go out of business and then just sit on their thumbs, well, they deserve to starve to death. Good riddance! But why should they have to sit on their thumbs and starve to death? For god's sakes, man, turn off the television and think! It doesn't hurt that much! Jobs? What is the point of a job? Do we have jobs just for the hell of it? No! Jobs exist not because we like them, but because they produce the things we want. Jobs are means to ends, not ends in themselves! When foreigners make shinies more cheaply than we can, they free us from having to make shinies ourselves, and give us the opportunity to produce other things to satisfy other wants! As such, where before we could have only shinies, trade allows us to have shinies and whatever else we can produce!

If we don't take the opportunity, we've nobody to blame but ourselves. And in fact that's precisely what's happening. Our government, and nothing else, makes it difficult - often impossible - to re-employ factors of production.

Trade restrictions and 'defense of domestic industry' do not increase want satisfaction; they limit it. They enforce poverty, in other words. They can do nothing else.




As for the rest of the thread:

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This is absolutely unbelievable. Tariffs are a horrible thing for our economy. They go against everything that Austrian economics stands for. Also, Our founders were not for protectionist tariffs. As a matter of fact, Jefferson was very much against it. People like Hamilton, Clay, and Lincoln supported tariffs to help promote the American system. Tariffs were one of the biggest reasons that the South left the Union. First off, did you even read that link from Ron Paul. He was not supporting tariffs! He even said that tariffs only hurt people by giving them higher prices. All a tariff does is force people to pay higher prices for goods. For example, say that a chinese company can give us a $5 shirt and American businesses can only do it at $8 dollars. Then if the government charges a $4 tariff on Chinese shirts to put the price of Chinese shirts at $9 dollars, of course people will buy the now cheaper $8 shirt. That would help the American business, but at what cost?! The American people now are forced to pay more money for their shirts. This means that they are not able to spend that extra money on something else, like a pair of pants. So tariffs would hurt the buyer, the Chinese company, other companies that will now not get that extra money that is now spent on American shirts, and employees that are put out of work at the pants store because now they are not making as much because all of that extra money is going to the shirts. The only group that benefits is in fact that American shirt company. As a matter of fact, in the long run even the shirt company will be hurt because the tariff will eventually make America more poor and will eat at their profits. If a company cannot make goods at a competitive price, it should fail. The tariffs of the 1800s failed by the way, they did not work. They caused the South to be overly burdened with unfair tariffs at the benefit of the North and eventually led to the War of Southern Independence and the eventual increase in the government that is robbing us of our liberties. America needs true free trade, which is trade without barriers or tariffs.

All of your arguments can be made more effective when turned against internal taxes. Internal taxes have all of the same free trade problems, they raise the price of everything made in the US, they raise the cost of US labor, plus they compound the problem by forcing manufacturing out of the country. Tariffs do not have this problem and that is why they are superior to internal taxes. One country subsidizing another's production is a vastly bigger problem than the same country subsidizing its own production.

Jefferson ran the entire country on tariffs alone. The Confederacy enacted a 10% tariff, they were not against tariffs, they were against tyrrany. Ron Paul has said the tariff is the least intrusive federal tax.
 
All of your arguments can be made more effective when turned against internal taxes. Internal taxes have all of the same free trade problems, they raise the price of everything made in the US, they raise the cost of US labor, plus they compound the problem by forcing manufacturing out of the country. Tariffs do not have this problem and that is why they are superior to internal taxes. One country subsidizing another's production is a vastly bigger problem than the same country subsidizing its own production.

Jefferson ran the entire country on tariffs alone. The Confederacy enacted a 10% tariff, they were not against tariffs, they were against tyrrany. Ron Paul has said the tariff is the least intrusive federal tax.

I am certainly not in total disagreement, but the quotes I was hearing made it seem as if tariffs were a wonderful idea and very effective. Both tariffs and internal taxes are an evil. The Confederacy was actually attempting to reduce the tariff by instituting a 10% tariff because it was drastically lowered from the northern tariffs and would have brought a flood of business into southern ports; this is one of the major reasons so many northerners supported the war. It was for economic survival. Do not forget though that the smoote hawley (spelling?) tariff was a major cause of the great depression and the highest tariff, the tariff of abominations, almost caused a war, and that tariffs led to the civil war. I agree that some form of taxation has to be done, but it must be minimal at best.
 
It's just the reverse. We don't have the good jobs because of debt and distortions of the credit markets.

If the Fed creates zillions of dollars, who spends it? The government? The banks? How do they spend it? That's right, they hire people. People that are no longer working in manufacturing.

Imagine that we all worked in manufacturing, with no trade deficit. We import as much as we export. $100 buys an average worker's day's labor, and $300 buys a day of labor from a plant manager. Now imagine the government prints up a ton of money. It suddenly is able to offer contractors and employees $120 a day to process paperwork, manufacture war supplies, build mars rovers, etc. Imagine the banks, through the federal reserve, also get a great deal of this money. They are now able to offer the best and brightest $400 a day to sit in an office and dream up investment schemes.

Do you think manufacturing would drop off?

so, you are saying the reason manufacturing has left the country is because the employees who worked in those factories are leaving their jobs for better-paying jobs in the government and the banking sector?

i guess we all see life in context of our own experiences, and in that regard, nothing could be further from the truth. i think you have a valid way of looking at things and i'm trying to understand your frame of reference, so bear with me.

at 18, i started work in a factory paying good wages, having good health benefits and a good pension plan. 7,000 people worked in that factory: just rows and rows of people soddering circuit boards. -after working there for 6 years i saved enough to go to college, which had always been my dream. -during a break i paced back and forth outside of my bosses office no less then 25 times trying to get the courage to go in there and tell him i was leaving: co-workers came up to me and said "you're crazy to leave a job like this with good benefits, good pay". i knew that i was but at the same time i had a dream. -so i left. -but let me tell you _nobody_ else left that factory. But years later the factory closed down and went to Asia: 7,000 people lost their jobs. They _loved_ their jobs.

so why did the factory go to Asia? -because Asia has slave labor, works their people 14 hour days for slave labor wages, employs young children, has unsafe working conditions in their factories, and spews all kinds of pollution into their air. And because of all of this, it's cheaper.

as Buchanan has stated in the past: the question is: do we want to allow ourselves to live in that kind of grotesque situation in order to compete? -to live in a polluted cesspool like China, to work in unsafe conditions? THIS is the question. My answer is "No"!

if a new manufacturer wanted to compete with the factory in China, they can't unless they resort to these sub-standard conditions. UNLESS: tariffs are put on circuit boards coming from China. That would allow 7,000 people to, again, have a _skilled_ job, good wages, and a good middle class lifestyle.

so your argument would be: joe consumer now cannot afford to buy circuit boards. However, there's a new factory down the street opening up that makes the plastic casing for radios that have those circuit boards. This factory can open up because now, since tariffs are put on plastic casings coming from China, this factory can now compete. Joe consumer gets a job at that new factory, has better wages and, once again, a middle class lifestyle: so he can afford to buy those tariff'd circuit boards.

where am i wrong?
 
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