Part 3 "Can you prove Evolution?"

Seeing distant stars does not mean that the Earth is not around the age the Bible says, nor does it make the Bible account not true. Like I have said, there is "observed time" and "calculated time," and the only time that meant anything before the discovery of the speed of light was "observed time," therefore the Bible could be using that time. If God would have used "calculated time," and really have created the stars on Day 4 Earth time, then the ancients might well have disbelieved the Word of God because they would believe that creation was still happening in the sky because they did not know better.

Don't get me wrong Nate. I don't think the idea of Evolution is a case against God. God can exist even with evolution.

Plus, I understand that with some that the idea of God means anything is possible.

However, people who want to refute the processes we have discovered through mathmatical equations, with literature from nomadic goat herders is just crazy talk.

Someone would say the Universe was created 10,000 years ago. Such a comment can be tested. It has been tested. It's absolutly false and anyone who is god fearing should also realize that the way the numbers appear within Genisis have little to do with how we look at time today. Or they can keep wondering why it's hard for some people to take them seriously.
 
Don't get me wrong Nate. I don't think the idea of Evolution is a case against God. God can exist even with evolution.

Plus, I understand that with some that the idea of God means anything is possible.

However, people who want to refute the processes we have discovered through mathmatical equations, with literature from nomadic goat herders is just crazy talk.

Someone would say the Universe was created 10,000 years ago. Such a comment can be tested. It has been tested. It's absolutly false and anyone who is god fearing should also realize that the way the numbers appear within Genisis have little to do with how we look at time today. Or they can keep wondering why it's hard for some people to take them seriously.

You cannot test the age of the Earth, which is what we are really going for here. In order to do so, you'd have to make an unprovable assumption first. Any God that does exist outside of the framework of the Genesis story cannot be the God of Abraham. The entire premise of the religion depends upon the exact story happening.
 
Natural selection is where preferable traits are selected over less preferable traits. Hence, there are different traits between dog species from the equator and the arctic regions. There is no mechanism in natural selection where new information can be added, only taken away.
Where do you think the "preferable" traits comes from?


It isn't exactly Darwinism because information is taken away, not added, to the genome.
Darwin didn't know about the genome so he never claimed that information was being added to a "genome."

Besides we can observe "information" being added to a genome.

Here is just one small example fromn the first page of a google search.
http://brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2004-05/04-147.html

Also see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposon

Transposons are sequences of DNA that can move around to different positions within the genome of a single cell, a process called transposition. In the process, they can cause mutations and change the amount of DNA in the genome.

So lets say that a retrotransposon duplicates and finds its way into another part of the genome. It then undergoes mutation. Later it is transcribed into a new protein. This constitutes an increase in information and a new function for the DNA.

If this new trait is selected for, then it is considered neutral or beneficial.


There is no implication that this includes things that would not die in an aquatic environment.
Yes there is.

If an animal lived on land, it was condemned.


There are many organs where it is impossible for them to function without being in their complete state.

Not true.

From your favorite guy, Dick Dawkins.
YouTube - Dawkins Makes an Eye

Natural selection can only take away genes, it cannot add to the genome.
I just showed you that this is incorrect.

You can't use science to determine the past for certain.
Of course you can't. But what makes you think a book of writings 2000-4000 years old will be better?

The blood that Christ shed is what covers us, not His death in and of itself. Blood is what is required to forgive our sins.
Ridiculous. This is some throwback to animal sacrifice in ancient Judaism.

Do you believe that animal sacrifice made JHWH happy back in those days?

We do question. We have faith, but it is not blind. We do not have to go back and edit the Bible to make it jive with what we know for a fact. The worst we ever have to do is ask what God really meant by what is written.
Yet the Bible has been extensively edited over time.


You can't do science to figure out the past unless you make an assumption that you cannot prove. Creation scientists assume the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, evolutionary biologists assume that nature is responsible for the past.
What is nature? What is your definition of natural?

Once we can hammer down a definition of the term natural, you will see that things we call supernatural are purely outside the realm of science.

My definition of natural is that which is regular and predictable and happens through physical causal relationships. Science cannot be used to determine the cause or effect of a supernatural agency.


No, we are starting with an assumption, as do you. You are starting with the idea that nature can explain what has happened in the past and going forward with that premise. We are starting with the assumption that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.
But this assumption leads to demonstrable absurdity, like trying to fit the flood story to geological evidence.


As for a flood laying down layered rock, the layered rock is nearly all near the surface. Creation scientists note the passage (Genesis 7:11) that states "...the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were open."
Is this the literal inerrant word of god?

Are there windows in the heavens?

And the whole Bible cannot possibly be inerrant because there are simple contradictions throughout. These surely look like simple human error. The differences in the Easter stories in the Gospels comes to mind.
Many creation scientists take this to mean that volcanoes, earthquakes, and geysers happened alongside the Flood. These are what caused the vast majority of the rock layers, and that is how many of the fossils came into being. The rock layers are exactly what a creationist would expect from the Flood. This process is also thought to have caused the split between the continents.
Wow. How long do you think this process took? Was it all within the 150 days of the flood? That's a huge release of energy that would heat the Earth's surface to beyond human habitability.

And it all had to happen underwater. When lava erupts underwater you get pillow lava. The whole earth should be covered in pillow lava, but it's not.
I am not starting with a conclusion, I am starting with an assumption. Everyone must start out with an assumption to be able to conduct any sort of logical argument. We happen to have diametrically opposed assumptions, so we confuse each other's assumptions with conclusions.
Could any physical evidence make you doubt your assumption then?

Or no matter what, you will continue to retain your assumption. Nothing will convince you that these assumptions are incorrect?


God condemns incest at this point probably because it creates mutants. Prior to this, the curse had not had such a great effect as to make the odds of mutant children from incestuous relations very high, and that would mean that the primary reason for not having incestuous relations (other than them being physically revolting) would be moot.
This is an example of some of the absurd results that come about from taking the Bible literally.
 
Wow, Eye Don't See It

Not true.

From your favorite guy, Dick Dawkins.
YouTube - Dawkins Makes an Eye

Dude, you have got to be kidding me. A computer model for how one thinks the eye might have evolved is hardly evidence that the eye really did evolve in that fashion. Where is that observed in nature? Please, PLEASE, show me where that model is based on an empirical example in the natural world. I thought that's how science was done, not by playing games on a computer.

Evolution is a sad joke. It really is, and evolutionists are really gasping for straws if they think the sort of evidence which Dawkins presents is scientific data for how an eye evolved. What was the creature doing for millions of years with a partially evolved eye? How could it move, find food, mate, and protect itself from other predators with better evolved eyes?

I would laugh at your hypothesis if I didn't know people took it so religiously and seriously.
 
Mesogen, can you make an effective argument on your own merit, without googling or wiki'ing everything? Your entire argument is supported by searches via wikipedia & google. Exactly what is your credibility & formal education regarding the matters being discussed? Degree trained or just a B.S. in googling? Would you be able to function in a face-to-face debate? Or are you a cognitive-evolutionary mutation as it pertains to the acquisition of knowledge? Even scientific peer-reviewed journals include a "Discussion" section. There's a reason for that.
 
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Mesogen, can you make an effective argument on your own merit, without googling or wiki'ing everything? Your entire argument is supported by searches via wikipedia & google. Exactly what is your credibility & formal education regarding the matters being discussed? Degree trained or just a B.S. in googling? Would you be able to function in a face-to-face debate? Or are you a cognitive-evolutionary mutation as it pertains to the acquisition of knowledge? Even scientific peer-reviewed journals include a "Discussion" section. There's a reason for that.

Come on, you've got to be kidding me.

If I didn't provide some links you'd bitch about it saying that I'm just pulling it all out of my ass.

If I told you I have a PhD in chemistry (which I do) you'd tell me that it has nothing to do with biology or geology so I can't possibly know what I'm talking about.

If I had a degree in biology or geology then you'd say that I was indoctrinated into Darwinism so I can't possibly have an unbiased position on the matter.

I mean if you want to have a literature battle about evolution, I promise you that evolution wins in the literature.

Linking to wikipedia is the easiest and quickest way for me to bring up elementary topics in science that are laid out in a way that is readily understandable to most people.

Dude, you have got to be kidding me. A computer model for how one thinks the eye might have evolved is hardly evidence that the eye really did evolve in that fashion. Where is that observed in nature? Please, PLEASE, show me where that model is based on an empirical example in the natural world. I thought that's how science was done, not by playing games on a computer.

Evolution is a sad joke. It really is, and evolutionists are really gasping for straws if they think the sort of evidence which Dawkins presents is scientific data for how an eye evolved. What was the creature doing for millions of years with a partially evolved eye? How could it move, find food, mate, and protect itself from other predators with better evolved eyes?

I would laugh at your hypothesis if I didn't know people took it so religiously and seriously.

The computer thing just shows the fallacy of assuming that an eye cannot function unless it is some complex form of an eye.

There are many types of eye throughout nature, ranging from eyespots in Euglena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyespot_apparatus (<- look it's a wiki link!)

to simple and complex eyes in insects

ocelli237.jpg
(<- insect simple eye)

Hmm, that kinda looks like one of those eyes in the video.

All these different types of eye exist today.

Phylum Mollusca itself contains many different types of eye.
79543-004-C3F00EE8.jpg


So take it however you like.

I know nothing will convince you that evolution (or Darwinism or whatever you want to call it) happens.
 
Blinded By the Obvious

The computer thing just shows the fallacy of assuming that an eye cannot function unless it is some complex form of an eye.

There are many types of eye throughout nature, ranging from eyespots in Euglena

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyespot_apparatus (<- look it's a wiki link!)

to simple and complex eyes in insects

ocelli237.jpg
(<- insect simple eye)

Hmm, that kinda looks like one of those eyes in the video.

All these different types of eye exist today.

Phylum Mollusca itself contains many different types of eye.
79543-004-C3F00EE8.jpg


So take it however you like.

I know nothing will convince you that evolution (or Darwinism or whatever you want to call it) happens.

You're showing me drawn pictures, not living examples in creatures from nature. They are no different than the computerized drawings from Dawkins's video. Those are hardly evidences of the evolutionary stages of an eye. You want to convince me that the evolution of the eye happened in nature, but you turn back to diagrams and pictures of how a person thought it might have happened. Do you not see that?

I can draw diagrams about how the motherboard of a computer may have evolved inside of a computer, but that is not the same as seeing it actually happen in a laboratory. Dawkins and other evolutionists like him want to convince the public that their theories are scientific and empirical, but then they draw pictures and construct models which are not themselves empirical proofs for their theories.

The simple and obvious explanation for the formation of the eye is that it was designed intricately by an intelligent Designer, but evolutionists would rather go against reason and deceive themselves that such a complex object as the eye came about by a slow, impersonal process. Give me a break.
 
What Theo?

Are you going to demonstrate creation in a labratory?

Are you going to show these guys a Vacuum and then create something inside it ex nihilo?

Really?
 
The problem with Evolution, is that there is no proof, but the public school teach only that theory What i want is for you to answer these questions.

1. If we can from monkeys, why are there still monkeys around?

2. Why don't we see things changing into other things now?

3. If the earth is 4 billion years old, why isn't there proof for it?

4. Why is Evolution the only theory that is taught in public schools?

5. Why don't we change into some thing higher if we are evolving?

Also i could like a picture of some thing evolving into some thing else.
 
Laboratories Don't Prove History

What Theo?

Are you going to demonstrate creation in a labratory?

Are you going to show these guys a Vacuum and then create something inside it ex nihilo?

Really?

Neither the creation of the universe nor the evolving of the universe from physical elements and occurrences can be demonstrated in a laboratory. They both are historical claims dealing with one-time events to describe the beginning of our universe. Because of that, both creation and evolution ultimately have to be accepted by faith, relying on the story of the people who make such claims. It's just that the creation account has much more scientific evidence and rationale for being true, while (macro) evolution does not.

The point I was getting across to Mesogen was that none of the scientists he quoted or referenced saw the eye evolve empirically as they hypothesize in their writings and/or drawings. They are based on assumptions and speculations, at best. Yet, evolutionists like him want to make it seem as if their theories are absolutely proven by empirical evidence with no component of faith in their descriptions, which they are not.
 
Proving evolution is correct is as futile as proving the creation story.

What is a better question to ask, I think, is: can evolution explain what we observe? Is it consistent with observation?

As a side point, I do not believe "order" in the universe points to any intelligent creator. The universe does not care about order, it does not care about patterns or straight lines or nice equations. What gives the universe order? We do! We are the ones who recognize patterns and call them "nice". Order does not exist without man. It's sort of like beauty. Is the universe beautiful? What would the universe say? The universe has no idea what the hell beauty is, beauty is a human thing, as is patterns and order.
 
As a side point, I do not believe "order" in the universe points to any intelligent creator. The universe does not care about order, it does not care about patterns or straight lines or nice equations. What gives the universe order? We do! We are the ones who recognize patterns and call them "nice". Order does not exist without man. It's sort of like beauty. Is the universe beautiful? What would the universe say? The universe has no idea what the hell beauty is, beauty is a human thing, as is patterns and order.

Very true. But the question stands!
 
Very true. But the question stands!

I do not know nearly enough information to answer your question or the revised question I posed. I would need LOTS of data, schooling, and a solid background in statistics. Evolution would either seem to explain and be consistent with observation, or not. If it is consistent, then I don't think it proves evolution is correct - it would, again, just show that it is consistent. If it is not consistent, then it does not prove it is wrong, either, or does not verify the creation explanation.

And, besides, any practical answer will be a lot longer than a few paragraphs in a single forum post.
 
The problem with Evolution, is that there is no proof, but the public school teach only that theory What i want is for you to answer these questions.

1. If we can from monkeys, why are there still monkeys around?

2. Why don't we see things changing into other things now?

3. If the earth is 4 billion years old, why isn't there proof for it?

4. Why is Evolution the only theory that is taught in public schools?

5. Why don't we change into some thing higher if we are evolving?

Also i could like a picture of some thing evolving into some thing else.



2. If you were alive for thousands of years, maybe you would start to see species change in such a way but unfortunately we haven't the lifespan for this! And how long have people been researching evolution anyways? Darwin's book came out only 150 years ago.

4. If you mean the theory of evolution as it pertains to modern human life then what other alternatives are there? Science, or at least science as we know it now can only observe and speculate, and use the limited evidence around us.

5. Evolution does not always mean to become higher or lower. It means a species will adapt to the environment around it and if a higher level of intelligence is required to survive in the environment then only the smartest survive, thus the average intelligence of the species will eventually become higher.

I would argue however, that since in our modern day society, neither physical nor mental superiority is required to survive, our gene pool and average intelligence has actually gotten weaker.
 
I would argue however, that since in our modern day society, neither physical nor mental superiority is required to survive, our gene pool and average intelligence has actually gotten weaker.

Blame socialism and things like "no child left behind".
If the weaker parts of our species were to die off- our gene pool would get stronger.
Since we make sure everyone survives and even subsidize stupidty- then our species gets weaker.
Octomom for example.
 
The problem with Evolution, is that there is no proof, but the public school teach only that theory What i want is for you to answer these questions.

1. If we can from monkeys, why are there still monkeys around?

We didn't come from modern-day apes, but rather we and modern apes share a common ancestor.

2. Why don't we see things changing into other things now?

Because things don't "change" into other things. Things DO change, over LONG periods of time (much longer than we can live). We can see change in things that have a short lifespan, such as flies or bacteria. Evolution HAS been observed within our lifetimes in these kinds of things.

3. If the earth is 4 billion years old, why isn't there proof for it?

http://talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

4. Why is Evolution the only theory that is taught in public schools?

Because it's the only theory that conforms to the scientific method, is testable, and has thousands upon thousands of peer reviewed scientific papers supporting it.

People don't just get to bypass the scientific method, peer review, etc and stick their theories into science classrooms without any precedent.

5. Why don't we change into some thing higher if we are evolving?

"Higher" is a subjective term... it has nothing whatsoever to do with evolution.

Also i could like a picture of some thing evolving into some thing else.

If something just "changed" into something else it would disprove the theory of evolution on the spot.
 
adam%20God.png


Michelangelo. Amongst history's most awe-inspiring artists.​

Does art prove anything?
 
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