Paleontology and Creationism Meet but Don’t Mesh

[Optatron]

Fossils prove there was a global flood, not various ages and stages of life.

A?

How about 2, 5, 20? 500?

 

[Optatron]

Do I even have to say anything?

nope, sit back, I'll PM you when we need you

 

[Optatron]

Why is it "too complex to have evolved on its own"? My understanding (someone correct me if I am wrong) is that evolution is a selection process; the species with more favorable gene mutations adapt better to conditions and reproduce more; the species with less favorable gene mutations do not adapt, reproduce less, and eventually die out. It's not that an individual organism evolves, but over thousands, or tens of thousands of years the better equipped offspring gradually mutate. I don't see where God is necessary.

(Of course it could all be like pokemon, where if you feed it enough rare candies it will evolve at lvl 40 LOL. Reminds me of this short called political pokemon.

And I would also disagree that beauty, or order, or patterns in nature point to God, or some intelligent creator. It is we humans who give the world order because we view things that way. Simply put, without human perspective there is no such thing as order in the universe. Does the sun care about it's nice, round shape? Does carbon care about the symmetries in its electrons' wave functions? Nope, but we certainly do.

This museum seems out right silly. I do not understand the mentality that tries to explain facts based on a pre-conceived conclusion; instead I feel it should be the other way around. Conclusions come after the facts, not before them.

not if you're an a priori presuppositionalist. it helps too if you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God (and nothing will convince you)

 

[TortoiseDream]

not if you're an a priori presuppositionalist. it helps too if you believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God (and nothing will convince you)

I made a friend recently who is a devout follower of Islam. We have great conversations, and it's always interesting to hear his perspective. From a free thinker's point of view, I think Islam is a lot more logical than Christianity, at least with regard to the following.

My friend tells me that Islam, that is, the Koran actually encourages one to challenge the Koran and find loopholes. The idea is that the Koran is supposed to be perfect, and that in challenging it, you grow more fond of it as you learn it's wisdom. I have not heard of anything like this for the Bible, which is just blindly followed. Of course I have my own challenge to the Koran, and indeed for any holy text, that I feel cannot be met; but the fact that Islam actually encourages thinking makes me respect it.

And as a side note, my friend tells me that Osama Bin Laden et. al. are not true followers of Islam, that they follow a perverted version. I've told him about Ron Paul and his views on foreign policy, and he has basically verified that Ron is right on the money. It's good to be right!

 

[Optatron]

I made a friend recently who is a devout follower of Islam. We have great conversations, and it's always interesting to hear his perspective. From a free thinker's point of view, I think Islam is a lot more logical than Christianity, at least with regard to the following.

My friend tells me that Islam, that is, the Koran actually encourages one to challenge the Koran and find loopholes.

What qualifies as a loophole?

internal contradiction?

The idea is that the Koran is supposed to be perfect, and that in challenging it, you grow more fond of it as you learn it's wisdom.

Only true if you already believe it, an outsider will find these things much easier.

I have not heard of anything like this for the Bible, which is just blindly followed. Of course I have my own challenge to the Koran, and indeed for any holy text, that I feel cannot be met; but the fact that Islam actually encourages thinking makes me respect it.

Sometimes it's called reverse psychology, if you allow it, believers tend to give it a break and think maybe it's unnecessary.

And as a side note, my friend tells me that Osama Bin Laden et. al. are not true followers of Islam, that they follow a perverted version. I've told him about Ron Paul and his views on foreign policy, and he has basically verified that Ron is right on the money. It's good to be right!

yes, and Theocrat, Fred Phelps, abortion clinic bombers, GW Bush, Catholics and anybody who believes in evolution are not true followers of Christianity.

 

[TortoiseDream]

What qualifies as a loophole? internal contradiction?

I guess so.

Only true if you already believe it, an outsider will find these things much easier.

Not really. My friend was a very staunch disbeliever in religion, but is now very religious having read the Koran. Islam believes that we are all pure when born, an empty cup so to speak, and that we can divert from this pureness. And so there is no such thing as a convert in Islam, we are all said to be reverts. He will say this is what happened to him.

yes, and Theocrat, Fred Phelps, abortion clinic bombers, GW Bush, Catholics and anybody who believes in evolution are not true followers of Christianity.

What do you think is a real Christian?

 

[Optatron]

I guess so.

You DO hear people today challenging doubters to find flaws or contradictions in the Bible, you gotta hear the excuses they come up with when you find them!

Not really. My friend was a very staunch disbeliever in religion, but is now very religious having read the Koran. Islam believes that we are all pure when born, an empty cup so to speak, and that we can divert from this pureness. And so there is no such thing as a convert in Islam, we are all said to be reverts. He will say this is what happened to him.

A believer will make any story to fit his story. Empty cup, so blank slate?

What do you think is a real Christian?

Honestly? Fred Phelps, or Darwin Fish http://www.atruechurch.info/
(legalists and literalists)

are closest to my idea of real, sincere followers of Christianity.

 

[TortoiseDream]

You DO hear people today challenging doubters to find flaws or contradictions in the Bible, you gotta hear the excuses they come up with when you find them!

I'm well aware, and it is funny. Another area I have respect for Islam is it's fundamentalist approach. The Koran is supposedly the word of God, and so any changes to it, any translation, anything taken out or away, or put in, and you no longer have the Koran. The Koran is the religion. When there are challenges to the Koran, it is the Koran that answers them, not a priest or guy with his own ideas using some arbitrary logic. In Christianity it seems there is that arbitrary logic that floats around, trying to defend itself. I'm not saying that Islam is right, but you gotta admit that it makes a whole lot more sense on the practical level in this respect.

A believer will make any story to fit his story. Empty cup, so blank slate?

You've been talking to Christians for too long, my friend.

Honestly? Fred Phelps, or Darwin Fish http://www.atruechurch.info/
(legalists and literalists)

are closest to my idea of real, sincere followers of Christianity.

I'll look into this. My idea of a true Christian is one who simply follows the teaching of Jesus, no more, no less; and the teachings of Jesus are non-resistance to violence, turning the other cheek.

 

[Optatron]

I'm well aware, and it is funny. Another area I have respect for Islam is it's fundamentalist approach. The Koran is supposedly the word of God, and so any changes to it, any translation, anything taken out or away, or put in, and you no longer have the Koran. The Koran is the religion. When there are challenges to the Koran, it is the Koran that answers them, not a priest or guy with his own ideas using some arbitrary logic. In Christianity it seems there is that arbitrary logic that floats around, trying to defend itself. I'm not saying that Islam is right, but you gotta admit that it makes a whole lot more sense on the practical level in this respect.

You've been talking to Christians for too long, my friend.

Actually, Islam has sects too, they have spiritual leaders too, so while the Koran is strict in keeping it's originality, interpretations & applications still vary.

you can get a free Koran online yourself and read it

I'll look into this. My idea of a true Christian is one who simply follows the teaching of Jesus, no more, no less; and the teachings of Jesus are non-resistance to violence, turning the other cheek.

how is that no more no less?

 

[TortoiseDream]

Actually, Islam has sects too, they have spiritual leaders too, so while the Koran is strict in keeping it's originality, interpretations & applications still vary.

You're right, I should have specified that I'm talking about Sunnis, the fundamentalists.

ow is that no more no less?

Those are his teachings, are they not?

 

[Optatron]

You're right, I should have specified that I'm talking about Sunnis, the fundamentalists.



Those are his teachings, are they not?

those are PART OF his teachings, not ALL OF IT.

you can't be "no more, no less" if you want to be a cherry picker

 

[TortoiseDream]

those are PART OF his teachings, not ALL OF IT.

you can't be "no more, no less" if you want to be a cherry picker

What else did he teach?