Pagan Elements in Christianity

[RJB]

I can't help being silly. I wallow in silliness.

 

[TER]

When I look back to my time as an atheist/agnostic, I said the same thing.

It's like someone climbs a mountain and sees the ocean in the distance and believes what he's experienced. When he tells his friends in the valley they scoff at him and want evidence. He tells them they will see the evidence if they climb the mountain. Yet they still scoff without climbing the mountain.

That's how it was when people told me to pray and repent. They had seen the light of Christ and felt his love. I scoffed and the funny thing was the only mountain I had to climb was the almost insurmountable mountain of my pride. Call on the Lord. He will answer.

Well said RJB. It is like when Christ was asked where He was staying, His answer was 'Come and see'. Likewise, His answer to us is to come and experience for ourselves that we may know.

 

[Ronin Truth]

When I look back to my time as an atheist/agnostic, I said the same thing.

It's like someone climbs a mountain and sees the ocean in the distance and believes what he's experienced. When he tells his friends in the valley they scoff at him and want evidence. He tells them they will see the evidence if they climb the mountain. Yet they still scoff without climbing the mountain.

That's how it was when people told me to pray and repent. They had seen the light of Christ and felt his love. I scoffed and the funny thing was the only mountain I had to climb was the almost insurmountable mountain of my pride. Call on the Lord. He will answer.

I'm very happy that you got your sufficient extraordinary evidence.

 

[Ronin Truth]

I can't help being silly. I wallow in silliness.

All part of having a good time.

Enjoy!

 

[erowe1]

I can neither prove nor disprove his divinity. I just said it gets in the way, and is not ultimately relevant to what he taught.

Here are some of Jesus's teachings:

5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”

7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. 2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

3 And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”

4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” 7 And he arose and departed to his house.

2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of[a] his disciples 3 and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?”

4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.”

8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”

39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

22 Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, 23 and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up.” And they were exceedingly sorrowful.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

17 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, 18 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, 19 and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.”

23 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, “By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?”

24 But Jesus answered and said to them, “I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: 25 The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?”

And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet.” 27 So they answered Jesus and said, “We do not know.”

And He said to them, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”

They said to Him, “The Son of David.”

43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”’?
45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

6 And when Jesus was in Bethany at the house of Simon the leper, 7 a woman came to Him having an alabaster flask of very costly fragrant oil, and she poured it on His head as He sat at the table. 8 But when His disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste? 9 For this fragrant oil might have been sold for much and given to the poor.”

10 But when Jesus was aware of it, He said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. 11 For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. 12 For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. 13 Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is preached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her.”

And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!”

64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, “He has spoken blasphemy! What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy! 66 What do you think?”

They answered and said, “He is deserving of death.”

11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”

Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.”

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[c] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

So the divinity of Jesus is very relevant.

The above selections were just from Matthew. We could increase that list of quotes significantly by looking at the other early records of Jesus's teachings that we have.

 

[Ronin Truth]

What claim(s) are you referring to? Unclear antecedent is unclear.

Context is often everything and most usually explains a lot.

 

[erowe1]

I thanked him for the forgiveness and we're cool. He said it was all right not to be a Christian. And I said that's what I thought.

That wasn't from Jesus. That was you making things up. Are you ready to stand before Him as your judge and use as your defense something that you merely made up?

 

[Jamesiv1]

Thank God that Constantine saw the light.

By law Constantin's mom should have been nailed to a tree. That might have played a part, too.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Here are some of Jesus's teachings:

So the divinity of Jesus is very relevant.



The above selections were just from Matthew. We could increase that list of quotes significantly by looking at the other early records of Jesus's teachings that we have.

You've been very busy. I think I'll just stick with a more managable subset. How much does the Golden Rule cover?

 

[erowe1]

You've been very busy. I think I'll just stick with a more managable subset. How much does the Golden Rule cover?

If you remove it from all of what Jesus taught about himself, it covers nothing at all. We didn't need Jesus just to teach us the Golden Rule.

 

[Ronin Truth]

That wasn't from Jesus. That was you making things up. Are you ready to stand before Him as your judge and use as your defense something that you merely made up?

Oh ye of little faith. I'm going to tell him that you said that. Tsk,tsk,tsk. Of course I will, aren't all of my sins forgiven?

 

[RJB]

By law Constantin's mom should have been nailed to a tree. That might have played a part, too.

Why is that?

By the way, I credit my mother's prayers for my soul as one of the reasons I'm now a Christian.

 

[erowe1]

Oh ye of little faith. I'm going to tell him that you said that. Tsk,tsk,tsk. Of course I will, aren't all of my sins forgiven?

If you mean that all sins of all people are forgiven, then no. Where did you get the idea that they were?

According to the teachings of Jesus, forgiveness of sins depends a great deal on what you believe about him.

 

[Ronin Truth]

If you remove it from all of what Jesus taught about himself, it covers nothing at all. We didn't need Jesus just to teach us the Golden Rule.

Well from the looks of things apparently lots of folks need to be learning and applying it. That alone would probably result in a drastic reduction of the world's sin rate.

 

[Ronin Truth]

If you mean that all sins of all people are forgiven, then no. Where did you get the idea that they were?

According to the teachings of Jesus, forgiveness of sins depends a great deal on what you believe about him.

Well I'm shocked, I was obviously lied to in Sunday school as a child. Probably those durned pagans.

 

[erowe1]

Well from the looks of things apparently lots of folks need to be learning and applying it. That alone would probably result in a drastic reduction of the world's sin rate.

It wouldn't result in that. People can outwardly conform themselves to standards like that. But Jesus taught us that those outward changes don't do anything about the problem of sin, which is inside us. In your favorite sermon, Jesus taught that we don't become murders by committing a murder or adulterers by committing adultery, but that those outward acts would only show what you already were, and that our status as murderers and adulterers is already proven by our those invisible thoughts that we like to pretend God doesn't see. We need him to perform a miracle on us from the inside out. And he does that through Jesus, and it's through Jesus being more than just a legislator, but also a savior through what he accomplished in his death and resurrection.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Of course I will, aren't all of my sins forgiven?

Well I'm shocked, I was obviously lied to in Sunday school as a child. Probably those durned pagans.

Yes, that view certainly didn't come from Christianity.

 

[Ronin Truth]

It wouldn't result in that. People can outwardly conform themselves to standards like that. But Jesus taught us that those outward changes don't do anything about the problem of sin, which is inside us. In your favorite sermon, Jesus taught that we don't become murders by committing a murder or adulterers by committing adultery, but that those outward acts would only show what you already were, and that our status as murderers and adulterers is already proven by our those invisible thoughts that we like to pretend God doesn't see. We need him to perform a miracle on us from the inside out. And he does that through Jesus, and it's through Jesus being more than just a legislator, but also a savior through what he accomplished in his death and resurrection.

Wow, you really do need to go through the fine print with a fine toothed comb, because the devil is in the details. One slip and you're toast. Did you ever think that just maybe the deck is stacked and the game is rigged? Of course not, because God loves us.

 

[erowe1]

Wow, you really do need to go through the fine print with a fine toothed comb, because the devil is in the details. One slip and you're toast. Did you ever think that just maybe the deck is stacked and the game is rigged? Of course not, because God loves us.

Between all the cliches, I can't figure out what point you're making here, or how it relates to what I said in the quote from me that you gave.

But in post #68 you said you were looking for the religion of Jesus. Well, if that's true, then what you find when you look, is that it didn't begin and end with the Golden Rule, and that his own religion was very much about his own role as a savior of souls from their own sin by doing something for them that they can't do for themselves just by conforming outwardly to some set of rules.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Between all the cliches, I can't figure out what point you're making here, or how it relates to what I said in the quote from me that you gave.

But in post #68 you said you were looking for the religion of Jesus. Well, if that's true, then what you find when you look, is that it didn't begin and end with the Golden Rule, and that his own religion was very much about his own role as a savior of souls from their own sin by doing something for them that they can't do for themselves just by conforming outwardly to some set of rules.

The point I was making was just a comment on the complexity of your post. If Christianity is the religion of Jesus, in your mind, then you've really got your work cut out for you, and that's just among the "Christians" (so called).