Pagan Elements in Christianity

[eduardo89]

I agree with you that these holidays originally came from pagans, but when a Christian celebrates these holidays (Assuming good intentions), he is doing so to worship God. Much like meat sacrificed to idols was originally pagan but it isn't sin for Christians to eat that meat.

If you disagree with this, I'd like to know why.

I don't see how celebrating the Paschal Mystery (he passion, death, and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, the work God the Father sent His Son to accomplish on earth) is a holiday with pagan origins.

Or did you mean silly things such as doing an Easter egg hunt with your children?

 

[Ronin Truth]

...

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”-- Mahatma Gandhi

"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian." -Mark Twain

 

[erowe1]

I do have to question as to why these two versions of the gospel of Matthew are different:





Here is the text I'm talking about.
http://www.amazon.com/THE-HEBREW-GOSPEL-OF-MATTHEW/dp/0865549893

Shem Tob is way out there as translations go.

In this case, what you presented really is a translation of a translation of a translation. It's an English translation of the Shem Tob Hebrew translation, which is a medieval translation of something else, and we're not even sure what, maybe the original Greek, maybe the Latin. And, as your example shows, it changes quite a bit of stuff. It's a historical curiosity. But it's not something to use if you are trying to get back to the original.

 

[erowe1]

What is its name?

Why does it need a name or matter if we know it. We know what Jesus taught, and we can just call it the religion of Jesus (which is what you called it yourself before I did).

During Jesus's lifetime his disciples were called "Disciples of Jesus." Later on the same disciples of Jesus would come to be called saints, brothers, churches, the Church, the Way, believers, those in Christ, Nazarenes, and Christians. The doctrines they taught were the doctrines Jesus taught, chiefly the Gospel that Jesus died for our sins and rose again according to the scriptures.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Why does it need a name or matter if we know it. We know what Jesus taught, and we can just call it the religion of Jesus (which is what you called it yourself before I did).

During Jesus's lifetime his disciples were called "Disciples of Jesus." Later on the same disciples of Jesus would come to be called saints, brothers, churches, the Church, the Way, believers, those in Christ, Nazarenes, and Christians. The doctrines they taught were the doctrines Jesus taught, chiefly the Gospel that Jesus died for our sins and rose again according to the scriptures.

It matters because I want to know. There's just way too much negative historical baggage with the name "Christian". If there is no other official name, I'll just make up my own.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I don't see how celebrating the Paschal Mystery (he passion, death, and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, the work God the Father sent His Son to accomplish on earth) is a holiday with pagan origins.

Or did you mean silly things such as doing an Easter egg hunt with your children?

I don't really know as much as I should about the history of these holidays. I know that Christmas was originally a pagan holiday and that the Catholic Church turned it into a Christian* holiday. But I don't think the fact that it started as a pagan holiday makes it inherently wrong as long as the focus is on Christ any-more than I think eating meat sacrificed to idols is inherently wrong. Its an issue for personal conviction.

*Using "Christian" in the loosest possible sense here, trying to avoid the "are Catholics Christians" debate here in this thread.

 

[eduardo89]

I don't really know as much as I should about the history of these holidays. I know that Christmas was originally a pagan holiday and that the Catholic Church turned it into a Christian* holiday. But I don't think the fact that it started as a pagan holiday makes it inherently wrong as long as the focus is on Christ any-more than I think eating meat sacrificed to idols is inherently wrong. Its an issue for personal conviction.

I don't see how placing Christmas on December 25th makes it a pagan holiday. On that day we celebrate the birth of our Lord and Saviour. What does that have to do with it coinciding with the date of a pagan holiday?

Would it have made a difference to what we celebrate if Christmas had been placed on December 26th or November 30th or February 13th? No, absolutely not.

*Using "Christian" in the loosest possible sense here, trying to avoid the "are Catholics Christians" debate here in this thread.

Then why even add that absurd sentence? And what you're saying there by adding that disclaimer is that Christmas is not a Christian holiday...

 

[Christian Liberty]

I don't see how placing Christmas on December 25th makes it a pagan holiday. On that day we celebrate the birth of our Lord and Saviour. What does that have to do with it coinciding with the date of a pagan holiday?

Would it have made a difference to what we celebrate if Christmas had been placed on December 26th or November 30th or February 13th? No, absolutely not.

I didn't really say it was a pagan holiday. I said it started as a pagan holiday. The Catholic Church didn't want people celebrating the pagan holidays of the Roman gods, so they co-opted the date and put their own holiday there instead. Beyond that, there's no Biblical mandate to celebrate the anniversary of Christ's birth and thus no moral obligation to do so. Its a matter of personal conviction and both sides are morally acceptable.

Then why even add that absurd sentence? And what you're saying there by adding that disclaimer is that Christmas is not a Christian holiday...

 

[erowe1]

It matters because I want to know. There's just way too much negative historical baggage with the name "Christian". If there is no other official name, I'll just make up my own.

Feel free to make up your own. There are the other historical ones I listed. Whatever you call it, his religion will be a religion about him. His own teaching placed himself at the very center of history, as the Messiah and only begotten son of God, who died for sins and conquered death itself in his resurrection. He was very audacious. Paul's Gospel about Jesus did not say anything about Jesus that Jesus's own Gospel about himself didn't.

FWIW, here's something that is freely available online that delves fairly deeply into the labels of the early Jesus movement from the beginning up until the label "Christian" came to predominate. The key thing that all the labels had in common was that they explicitly or implicitly made devotion to Jesus himself the defining idea of the movement by being formed from his own names and titles (e.g. the title "Christ" in the label "Christian").
http://etd.nd.edu/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-07202012-161500/

 

[Ronin Truth]

Feel free to make up your own. There are the other historical ones I listed. Whatever you call it, his religion will be a religion about him. His own teaching placed himself at the very center of history, as the Messiah and only begotten son of God, who died for sins and conquered death itself in his resurrection. He was very audacious. Paul's Gospel about Jesus did not say anything about Jesus that Jesus's own Gospel about himself didn't.

FWIW, here's something that is freely available online that delves fairly deeply into the labels of the early Jesus movement from the beginning up until the label "Christian" came to predominate. The key thing that all the labels had in common was that they explicitly or implicitly made devotion to Jesus himself the defining idea of the movement by being formed from his own names and titles (e.g. the title "Christ" in the label "Christian").
http://etd.nd.edu/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-07202012-161500/

If it's ABOUT Jesus I will have done it wrong. There's already far too many of those already.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

http://michaeljeshurun.wordpress.com/category/mike-jeshuruns-articles/my-christianity-and-christmas/

An article to consider.

http://michaeljeshurun.wordpress.com/category/must-read-sermons/easter-the-devils-holiday/

There is also an article about Halloween.

 

[Dr.3D]

It's interesting to note I didn't see any mention of how someone by the name of Gregory developed a calendar using the names of pagan gods to name the days and some of the months and that same person was a pope.

 

[erowe1]

It's interesting to note I didn't see any mention of how someone by the name of Gregory developed a calendar using the names of pagan gods to name the days and some of the months and that same person was a pope.

I'm pretty sure those names had all already been in use for a very long time.

 

[Dr.3D]

I'm pretty sure those names had all already been in use for a very long time.

Nothing like a "Christian" to make a new calendar and keep right on using them. In the times of the Bible, the days didn't have names, they just had numbers first through sixth and sabbath.

 

[Ronin Truth]

http://michaeljeshurun.wordpress.com/category/mike-jeshuruns-articles/my-christianity-and-christmas/

An article to consider.

http://michaeljeshurun.wordpress.com/category/must-read-sermons/easter-the-devils-holiday/

There is also an article about Halloween.

Thanks for your thread additions. I really appreciate your help.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

It's interesting to note I didn't see any mention of how someone by the name of Gregory developed a calendar using the names of pagan gods to name the days and some of the months and that same person was a pope.

FWIW, there have never been pagan names used for the days in the Gregorian calendar in the Russian Church and other Slavic churches. Воскресенье-Resurection Day, "Sunday" in the West. понидельник-the first day "Monday" in the West Вторник-the second day aka "Tuesday" Среда-middle day, aka "Wednesday" Четверг-the fourth day, aka "Thursday" Пятница-the fifth day, aka "Friday", Суббота Sabboth day, aka "Saturday".

Neat trivia for your Tuesday.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Nothing like a "Christian" to make a new calendar and keep right on using them. In the times of the Bible, the days didn't have names, they just had numbers first through sixth and sabbath.

IIRC, the adoption of new names for the new calander was simply because it made more sense to the Latin speaking world. Someone plz correct me if I'm wrong. :o
ETA-I don't see the need for scare quotes in your statement. Churches to this day adopt certain things from local cultures to accomadate the locals. i.e. using a native tongue instead of a liturgical language like Arabic, Greek, Russian, etc.

 

[eduardo89]

FWIW, there have never been pagan names used for the days in the Gregorian calendar in the Russian Church and other Slavic churches. Воскресенье-Resurection Day, "Sunday" in the West. понидельник-the first day "Monday" in the West Вторник-the second day aka "Tuesday" Среда-middle day, aka "Wednesday" Четверг-the fourth day, aka "Thursday" Пятница-the fifth day, aka "Friday", Суббота Sabboth day, aka "Saturday".

Neat trivia for your Tuesday.

Portuguese is similar.

Domingo – Sunday (Lord's day)
Segunda-feira – Monday (Second day)
Terça-feira – Tuesday (Third day)
Quarta-feira – Wednesday (Fourth day)
Quinta-feira – Thursday (Fifth day)
Sexta-feira – Friday (Sixth day)
Sábado – Saturday (Sabbath)

 

[TER]

Portuguese is similar.

Domingo – Sunday (Lord's day)
Segunda-feira – Monday (Second day)
Terça-feira – Tuesday (Third day)
Quarta-feira – Wednesday (Fourth day)
Quinta-feira – Thursday (Fifth day)
Sexta-feira – Friday (Sixth day)
Sábado – Saturday (Sabbath)

The Greek is similar except Friday is paraskevi which means "preparation day" for the sabbath.

 

[Dr.3D]

Churches to this day adopt certain things from local cultures to accomadate the locals. i.e. using a native tongue instead of a liturgical language like Arabic, Greek, Russian, etc.

One would hope so. It would do absolutely no good at all if the locals couldn't understand the service.