Open carry debate

[fisharmor]

How in the hell did you conclude that I consider your stance as stupid???????

.......Because it's a logical consequence of a deductive argument based on your stated premises.

If anything, I was inferring that you are rigid. People who are rigid, aka puritanical in their thinking are not worth having a debate with.

Puritanical means means overly rigid. Thus my argument above.

But here's your rigidity premise in other words: it's not worth entertaining a different point of view. Why did you start this thread? You assert that it is generally not worth debating with people of a rigid mind - as opposed to only being a worthless venture for yourself - so at this point I'm at a loss for why you created the thread. You can't be looking for converts, since then we'd be wasting time on your rigid thinking.

I, on the other hand, do not have any expectation from you... I realize fully that the purpose of internet fora is to broadcast ideas to nonparticipants. Hope you're all having a good time.

My stance on OC during demonstrations is tactical - not emotional ( a typical response from a man regarding a woman ). As I mentioned, I think it is way too provacative and it is asking for trouble. Your argument that OC quells violence is unconvincing.

Well, then we have to agree to disagree. I consider video evidence to be pretty convincing.

Also, you have not provided evidence that you are a woman or that I am a man. You know what they say about assuming, don't you?
That you injected unfounded sexism claims into what I was hoping could be a rational debate only supports my claim that you are not thinking here, but going on gut reaction.

And if you hadn't told me that someone was OCing in the video I would have never known it based on what I saw, which was basically 2 minutes of mass confusion.

I think I should be able to expect someone "so pro-2nd, it's almost stupid" to know who William Kostric is, or what he looks like, or that he's in the video, especially considering that he's single-handedly responsible for creating the controversy you took enough of an interest in to post about on this forum....

I also consider sketchy evidence to be better than no evidence, so you aren't going to convince me until you produce better evidence in favor of your position.

Anyone can go to a demonstration and conceal their weapon if they are concerned about the need to defend themselves. Again, I am NOT for banning OC, that is NOT my argument. I am arguing on principle. If you don't like it, fine. That doesn't mean I am anti-2nd.

As I already said, there is room in this debate for those of you who are not anti-2nd but are also not pro-2nd. I did not say that you are anti-2nd.

Plus, I first argued in favor of carrying precisely to let our government overlords know that we are armed... meaning that concealing our firearms would be counterproductive to that goal.

 

[Acala]

danger

I find the chances of a Ron Paul supporter losing their cool and shooting up a demonstration to be almost zero, while the chances of an agent of the enemy coming into a demonstration and creating a false flag incident are rather high. Having true patriots armed at such demonstrations makes false flag incidents LESS likely because those agents don't want to get shot by patriots acting in self-defense.

The presence of guns inhibits the bad guys and emboldens the good guys. And most importantly, it scares politicians and I want politicians to be so scared they have to wear diapers. Nothing would make me happier - or bring change faster - than to have every member of Congress have to walk a gauntlet of armed and grumbling citizens everytime they show their face in public.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

 

[Deborah K]

I find the chances of a Ron Paul supporter losing their cool and shooting up a demonstration to be almost zero, while the chances of an agent of the enemy coming into a demonstration and creating a false flag incident are rather high. Having true patriots armed at such demonstrations makes false flag incidents LESS likely because those agents don't want to get shot by patriots acting in self-defense.

The presence of guns inhibits the bad guys and emboldens the good guys. And most importantly, it scares politicians and I want politicians to be so scared they have to wear diapers. Nothing would make me happier - or bring change faster - than to have every member of Congress have to walk a gauntlet of armed and grumbling citizens everytime they show their face in public.

Good point.

 

[edstephan]

Deborah K
My stance on OC during demonstrations is tactical - not emotional ( a typical response from a man regarding a woman ). As I mentioned, I think it is way too provocative and it is asking for trouble. Your argument that OC quells violence is unconvincing. And if you hadn't told me that someone was OCing in the video I would have never known it based on what I saw, which was basically 2 minutes of mass confusion.

Bold is mine:
Saying this is the same is saying "Audit the Fed' some may say that your speech is "way too provocative". So who do you want to make the call as to limitations of our "rights", you, me, the government??

Since when is exercising a "Right" "way too provocative".
A "Right not exercised is a right lost" and a "Right" usurped by intimidation is also a "Right" lost.

Second bold statement.
And a march on DC and all the tea parties are asking for trouble? According to your logic the Hate speeches that were given at the TEA Parties and should have been disallowed.
Even Nancy Pelosi said the speeches at the town hall's and TEA parties were too provocative and bordering on violence.


So Deborah K where do you draw your line?


An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

 

[Deborah K]

Bold is mine:
Saying this is the same is saying "Audit the Fed' some may say that your speech is "way too provocative". So who do you want to make the call as to limitations of our "rights", you, me, the government??

Since when is exercising a "Right" "way too provocative".
A "Right not exercised is a right lost" and a "Right" usurped by intimidation is also a "Right" lost.

Second bold statement.
And a march on DC and all the tea parties are asking for trouble? According to your logic the Hate speeches that were given at the TEA Parties and should have been disallowed.
Even Nancy Pelosi said the speeches at the town hall's and TEA parties were too provocative.

So Deborah K where do you draw your line?


An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

I'm open to reasonable debate, which is why I started the thread by stating "convince me". I've already stated my concerns. I just don't think it's a good move with the climate being the way it is right now. I don't believe that RP supporters are loose cannons, but there are a lot of frustrated people right now that are looking for a fight. It just doesn't seem like a wise move to me.

Again, I'm not talking about legislation here.

 

[edstephan]

I'm open to reasonable debate, which is why I started the thread by stating "convince me". I've already stated my concerns. I just don't think it's a good move with the climate being the way it is right now. I don't believe that RP supporters are loose cannons, but there are a lot of frustrated people right now that are looking for a fight. It just doesn't seem like a wise move to me.
Again, I'm not talking about legislation here.

And what would be a better climate to exercise our "Rights"? When the bullets start flying?

Mark my words, If the government keeps on the course it is currently on, and something doesn’t change it by the mid-terms there will be armed revolt.
Most likely it will be instigated by the left.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf. - George Orwell

An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

 

[Deborah K]

And what would be a better climate to exercise our "Rights"? When the bullets start flying?

Mark my words, If the government keeps on the course it is currently on, and something doesn’t change it by the mid-terms there will be armed revolt.
Most likely it will be instigated by the left.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence in their behalf. - George Orwell

An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

I sleep peaceably at night because I have a loaded 9mm in my nightstand. My husband has a loaded 45 in his.

I understand that the smell of violence is in the air. I've always believed that when they try to push amnesty through, it will spark it. I've got threads on this concern. I believe this because I'm a Minuteman. We OC when we patrol the border. There is bad blood between the pro-amnesty groups and the border security groups. You think the demonstrations are testy now......just wait.....

I will of course attend the local protests against amnesty. I even helped organize one in DC in '07 when they tried to pass it then. The counter protestors were aggressive then and they will be much much worse this next time.

I have no plans to aggravate the situation by OCing. There are people who are not above shooting you in the back and running. Ocing is just making yourself a target.

I remain unconvinced.

 

[amy31416]

I think that if Americans hadn't lost their way, that open carry would not be a big deal at all. The hysteria over a person open-carrying is just a symptom of how cowardly and compliant with the status quo most of us have become.

When my parents were kids, guns were no big deal at all. When my dad bought my brother a BB gun, my mother just about lost her mind. After growing up with all her horror stories, you'd think that guns are evil incarnate--and motorcycles too.

I had to get over a lot of "conditioning" in order to fire a gun for the first time.

Another part of the problem is that guns have long been associated with the "bad guys." Gangsters, gang members, thugs, muggers, robbers, rapists, terrorists, etc. Quite often, the good guys are portrayed as those who can defeat bad guys without a weapon at all, just some fancy jiu jitsu. That isn't reality.

 

[edstephan]

I sleep peaceably at night because I have a loaded 9mm in my nightstand. My husband has a loaded 45 in his.
I understand that the smell of violence is in the air. I've always believed that when they try to push amnesty through, it will spark it. I've got threads on this concern. I believe this because I'm a Minuteman. We OC when we patrol the border. There is bad blood between the pro-amnesty groups and the border security groups. You think the demonstrations are testy now......just wait.....
I will of course attend the local protests against amnesty. I even helped organize one in DC in '07 when they tried to pass it then. The counter protestors were aggressive then and they will be much much worse this next time.
I have no plans to aggravate the situation by OCing. There are people who are not above shooting you in the back and running. Ocing is just making yourself a target.
I remain unconvinced.

There is a greater chance at the border with confrontation then there is at the peaceful rallies.
I've been outside of Yuma and cross border firefights are not uncommon.
I OC all the time but we carry our EBR (Evil Black Rifles, AR15's and AK's) to make a point at the rallies. We started this at the 15 April 2009 rallies because everyone was afraid to stand up.
If you want the politicians to listen you have to make them afraid, very afraid.
Right now the politicians have been emboldened to do what ever they wish and we have no voice because we have not flexed our muscles in a long time. They have power and will exercise it with great ferocity against whoever is in there way towards their quest for more power over our lives.

This discourse has run it’s course as the arguments I have are having no effect on a mind already made up.
Can we just agree to disagree?

An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

 

[fisharmor]

This discourse has run it’s course as the arguments I have are having no effect on a mind already made up.

I dunno, I'm thinking that after 5 more pages or so DeboraK might finally give consideration to the arguments presented back on page 3.
I'm certainly bowing out at this point...

 

[Deborah K]

There is a greater chance at the border with confrontation then there is at the peaceful rallies.
I've been outside of Yuma and cross border firefights are not uncommon.
I OC all the time but we carry our EBR (Evil Black Rifles, AR15's and AK's) to make a point at the rallies. We started this at the 15 April 2009 rallies because everyone was afraid to stand up.
If you want the politicians to listen you have to make them afraid, very afraid.
Right now the politicians have been emboldened to do what ever they wish and we have no voice because we have not flexed our muscles in a long time. They have power and will exercise it with great ferocity against whoever is in there way towards their quest for more power over our lives.

This discourse has run it’s course as the arguments I have are having no effect on a mind already made up.
Can we just agree to disagree?

An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%
Ed Stephan

Yes, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Charlie41]

Deborah K.

With all due respect. It don't matter what any of us think. We all know what 2A is about, we all know it's the peoples right, and it is in fact being infringed upon every day by the powers that be.

With that being said. Yes, all public gatherings should be O.C. For these reasons.

An armed society is a polite society. If every one was armed, O.C. style, I don't think tempers would even show as much as they do now. And I really don't think any one is going to start a gun fight over a difference of opinion at one of these events. I have a hard time believing any one is that stupid. (not saying those people are not around)

I do highly favor scaring the day lights out of out reps. that think they are our "leaders". If showing up to an event and everyone was O.C. and it scares the reps. into remembering they serve us. I'm all for it.

Question, what if you attend an event like this, and you are not showing your weapon, and the female next to you is. Who do you think the "big bad ass" thug is going to try and start trouble with? A safe target, or an armed target?

 

[Deborah K]

Deborah K.

With all due respect. It don't matter what any of us think. We all know what 2A is about, we all know it's the peoples right, and it is in fact being infringed upon every day by the powers that be.

With that being said. Yes, all public gatherings should be O.C. For these reasons.

An armed society is a polite society. If every one was armed, O.C. style, I don't think tempers would even show as much as they do now. And I really don't think any one is going to start a gun fight over a difference of opinion at one of these events. I have a hard time believing any one is that stupid. (not saying those people are not around)

I do highly favor scaring the day lights out of out reps. that think they are our "leaders". If showing up to an event and everyone was O.C. and it scares the reps. into remembering they serve us. I'm all for it.

Question, what if you attend an event like this, and you are not showing your weapon, and the female next to you is. Who do you think the "big bad ass" thug is going to try and start trouble with? A safe target, or an armed target?

If you're shot in the back, your side arm won't make a difference. And besides, if I am worried about my safety I can conceal. This issue isn't really about defense. It's about making a provacative statement and the ramifications thereof. No one seems to want to address my concerns about that.

Put yourself in my shoes. I go to a protest against amnesty. I'm met by people like this:

YouTube - The True Face of Hate


I am wearing my side arm. What do you think will happen in this kind of hostile environment?

 

[Pericles]

If you're shot in the back, your side arm won't make a difference. And besides, if I am worried about my safety I can conceal. This issue isn't really about defense. It's about making a provacative statement and the ramifications thereof. No one seems to want to address my concerns about that.

Put yourself in my shoes. I go to a protest against amnesty. I'm met by people like this:

YouTube - The True Face of Hate


I am wearing my side arm. What do you think will happen in this kind of hostile environment?

The bullies will back off when it is clear that Captain Parker's orders will be obeyed - “Stand your ground. Do not fire unless fired upon. But if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!”

The whole point is intimidation - that is what they do well and people with a peaceful disposition have a tendency to avoid conflict, and are disposed to look for a way to avoid conflict as long as the cost of avoidance is bearable. I am disposed to say no - you can't have Austria, no to having the Sudetenland, no to having the rest of Czechoslovakia, and no to the Danzig corridor as well. The time to stop it is now.

Unfortunately, part of deterrence theory is the willingness to escalate, until one of the two stops - it becomes a contest of wills, and those who can't take the stress or the consequences shouldn't participate. So far, left out is another player in the game - the police - they have an interest in there not being a firefight - and the closer it seems to be getting there, they will step in.

We each choose how much intimidation we are willing to tolerate. In the words of an ex GI buddy of mine after a recent incident "That guy was lucky this is the US, in Iraq he would have been dead."

 

[Charlie41]

If you're shot in the back, your side arm won't make a difference. And besides, if I am worried about my safety I can conceal. This issue isn't really about defense. It's about making a provacative statement and the ramifications thereof. No one seems to want to address my concerns about that.

Put yourself in my shoes. I go to a protest against amnesty. I'm met by people like this:




I am wearing my side arm. What do you think will happen in this kind of hostile environment?

That vid was disturbing to say the least. I would say if your the only one that decides to O.C, you will be singled out. But my point was more along the lines of every one needs to do this. And it will be difficult to convince every one to do it. But by all means necessary, carry to defend yourself. Good luck in what ever you decide.

As far as "those people" If you think about the true definition of racism, they are the racist. They are defending their people and only their people against the law of the land.