On Free Immigration and Forced Integration

I think even the most racist of individuals would not buy a property where potential buyers are so limited, but that isn't what your asking.
That's because you don't know your history.

In 1963, a long time ago but in the lives of many now living, the citizens of California, by a majority of nearly two-thirds, voted to pass a law called Proposition 14. This amended the state constitution to add the following:

"Neither the State nor any subdivision or agency thereof shall deny, limit or abridge, directly or indirectly, the right of any person, who is willing or desires to sell, lease or rent any part or all of his real property, to decline to sell, lease or rent such property to such person or persons as he, in his absolute discretion, chooses."

In other words: if you don't want to live with persons of color, you don't have to. The amendment, obviously, turned out to be unconstitutional, just like this one; and we have persons of color to this day in California. In fact, we have so many of them that California in 2008 elected Barack Obama, noted person of color, by almost the same margin that its 1963 predecessor passed Prop. 14.
How could I be more clear on my belief in property rights? If one, two, ten, 100, people own ALL the property in a given town, and they ALL have the policy that restricts the entrance of "beggars or bums or homeless . . . Moslems, Hindus, Jews, Catholics, etc.", then where could the "beggars or bums or homeless . . . Moslems, Hindus, Jews, Catholics, etc." go that wouldn't be violating someones property rights? But it is not a town decree that makes this so, it is the individual property owners. It would not restrict these individual owners from their freedom of association, to sell or allow on their property which resides in this given town "beggars or bums or homeless . . . Moslems, Hindus, Jews, Catholics, etc." if they so decide.
As in the last thread we interacted, you seem to be completely ignorant of the existence of joint ownership arrangements. Sadly, as you learned nothing then, I don't very well see how you can be expected to learn anything now. But I'll go ahead and talk you through it in the hopes that someone else reading this might not be quite so mentally impaired.

It is possible for two or more people to join their assets in order to purchase a piece of property that none of the individuals in question could afford on their own, thereby granting them joint ownership over the property. Individuals who make this sort of arrangement are generally referred to as "corporations." If a corporation were to purchase a town or village (or a mall!), it would likely want to rent out the various buildings and stores within that territory in order to turn a profit on the land. Corporations, by their very nature, occasionally take actions not supported by all of their shareholders. Thus if 51% of the voting shares in a corporation wish to instate a policy that bans "beggars or bums or homeless . . . Moslems, Hindus, Jews, Catholics, etc." from corporate property, such a policy will be put in place over the objections of the 49%. Would you object to this? If so, on what grounds?

btw, normal people call corporations of this nature a "government."
WE are not to determine who gets what, unless the property is ours. Generally you gain ownership of a property by buying it from the previous owner, sometimes inheritance, sometimes by way of gifts.
picard-facepalm31e.jpg
 
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And as we see, the government is in fact able to do all of these things. It follows logically that they must indeed possess these rights.

You don't have any rights aside from those that you can forcibly defend, and nor does anyone else. Hope this helps.


No, it does not help because it is not correct. Do something and having the right to do something are not the same thing. Inability to defend a right does not negate the right.
 
Know what runs in direct contrast with free association? Having a government so powerful that it can dictate what people you can and can't hire, who is allowed on your property, and who you can contract with.
Not really. Your mistake is in forgetting that "freedom of association," by its very nature, can only exist for free persons. Serfs aren't free. If the government wants its property not to be granted certain rights, it won't have those rights.
And Hoppe argues that that is the proper policy for a government to have. Good job Hans, you should know better than to assume the government that you've given so much power will only do the things you advocate for (which is bad enough).
Who ever said anything about assuming that the government will only do things we advocate for? Governments will act in their own interests, as they always have. That's what things tend to do. The most we (the serfs) can hope for is to find some way to align the interests of the government with ourselves. Democracy was thought to be a good way of doing so, but I think most people here can agree that it has failed.
He nailed nothing in this piece.
You might say so, but your ass does seem to be bleeding profusely. Might wanna get that looked at.
 
The most we (the serfs) can hope for is to find some way to align the interests of the government with ourselves.

You might say so, but your ass does seem to be bleeding profusely. Might wanna get that looked at.


Your "alignment" with government looks like you're the one taking it in the ass.
 
You stealing my watch does not make it right. Put it in your own words and get back to me.
I agree that my stealing your watch would not make it "right" in the sense that you mean it and apologize for the dismissive tone of my original reply. I'll try to better explain what I meant by the comment with which you initially disagreed.

What we commonly call "rights" are not real things - they do not refer to anything that exists in the world. They are fictions. Moral realism is false, while nihilism is true; thus, it is not correct to say that anyone has a right to anything (in the sense that the term is usually used). Instead, all we may properly say is that people/groups are capable or not capable of doing certain things. If we wish to make use of the usual language surrounding such claims, we might say that those rights exist which can in fact be exercised - thus, if you are capable of retrieving your watch after I have stolen it (either via direct force or by alerting a police officer who takes it from me and gives it back to you), then we may say that you have a right to your watch. If you are not capable of retrieving your watch after I have stolen it, then we may say that you do not have a right to your watch.

Make sense?
 
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Your "alignment" with government looks like you're the one taking it in the ass.
That's because you have the blood of the Anglo-Saxons running through your veins, I'd wager. A notoriously individualistic people, they hated being ruled/submitting to more powerful entities than themselves. Believe me, I know the feeling - I have an anti-authoritarian streak in me a mile wide. It took a lot of reading and thinking to overcome.

Here is a very long article that I'd appreciate it if you read: Civil liberties and the single reactionary

I don't really expect you to take the time, nor can I really blame you for doing otherwise. But I think you might learn something you otherwise wouldn't know by doing so, and I also suspect that you'd consider it worthwhile afterwards. Your call!
 
If you are not capable of retrieving your watch after I have stolen, then we may say that you do not have a right to your watch.


You possessing the watch after stealing it does not make it right. You possess the watch, but you have no right to possess it. Possession and right are two different things.
 
That's because you don't know your history.

In 1963, a long time ago but in the lives of many now living, the citizens of California, by a majority of nearly two-thirds, voted to pass a law called Proposition 14. This amended the state constitution to add the following:

"Neither the State nor any subdivision or agency thereof shall deny, limit or abridge, directly or indirectly, the right of any person, who is willing or desires to sell, lease or rent any part or all of his real property, to decline to sell, lease or rent such property to such person or persons as he, in his absolute discretion, chooses."

In other words: if you don't want to live with persons of color, you don't have to. The amendment, obviously, turned out to be unconstitutional, just like this one; and we have persons of color to this day in California. In fact, we have so many of them that California in 2008 elected Barack Obama, noted person of color, by almost the same margin that its 1963 predecessor passed Prop. 14.

That in no way relates whether an individual would buy a property that could never be sold to certain counter-parties. What this says is, as the owner of the property, you cannot be forced to rent or sell your property to any individual, for any reason. And I 100% agree, Prop 14 shouldn't have needed to be passed in the first place, it is inherit in an individual's property rights. The reason to not buy a property with such conditions is that, even if it is in your best interest as you determine them, even if it is your desire, you would not be allowed to expand your customer base to include those excluded by the contract.

As in the last thread we interacted, you seem to be completely ignorant of the existence of joint ownership arrangements. Sadly, as you learned nothing then, I don't very well see how you can be expected to learn anything now. But I'll go ahead and talk you through it in the hopes that someone else reading this might not be quite so mentally impaired.

lol, you sure are quite the prick. I know very well of joint ownership, my girlfriend and I own our house jointly.

It is possible for two or more people to join their assets in order to purchase a piece of property that none of the individuals in question could afford on their own, thereby granting them joint ownership over the property. Individuals who make this sort of arrangement are generally referred to as "corporations." If a corporation were to purchase a town or village (or a mall!), it would likely want to rent out the various buildings and stores within that territory in order to turn a profit on the land. Corporations, by their very nature, occasionally take actions not supported by all of their shareholders. Thus if 51% of the voting shares in a corporation wish to instate a policy that bans "beggars or bums or homeless . . . Moslems, Hindus, Jews, Catholics, etc." from corporate property, such a policy will be put in place over the objections of the 49%. Would you object to this? If so, on what grounds?

I agree with that. Although, to be nit picky, how can you achieve 51% of the voting shares when there is a disagreement and only two owners, as you stated here:

If two people were to purchase the town or village, is it your assertion that in doing so they thereby ought to lose their right to freedom of association?

btw, normal people call corporations of this nature a "government."

No, no they don't. I have heard Walmart, etc, referenced exactly zero times as a government.
 
Is it fair to say, mucus, that you have derailed so far from the original intent of this thread because Hoppe's writing is indefensible garbage? Also, is it fair to say you too disagree with Hoppe's piece, other than the historical aspects and the advocation for European only immigration?
 
And as we see, the government is in fact able to do all of these things. It follows logically that they must indeed possess these rights.

This is just an argument over semantics then. As you've said before:

The answer to your question hinges on how we choose to define "right." There are two reasonable definitions that lead to very different answers.

1) If we think of the word "right" as referring to some objectively extant property in nature, then the answer is no, because "rights" in this sense do not exist - nobody has any "rights" whatsoever. "Rights" are simply fictional entities, somewhat akin to unicorns or dragons. People talk about them, but when they do they are simply confused about what is real and what is not.

2) If we think of the word "right" as referring to a legal or political right, then the answer is yes. The word "right" in this sense is synonymous with the word "power." Does the state have the "right" (power) to transfer property between citizens on a whim? Obviously - states do this sort of thing all the time. You are correct that the victims of these forced transactions are very often outraged - and yet the transfers take place nonetheless. This is because states tend to be radically more powerful than the citizens they own. These citizens/slaves sometimes construct moral systems according to which such transfers are illegitimate in order to justify their feelings of outrage - that is the origin of the definition of "right" referred to in the paragraph above.

You assumed the second, while it's pretty clear I was talking closer to the first. I'm not going to argue over a definition, so I won't use the word anymore, but my previous post was using rights as ethics based rules on who should control what. And, as I said before (but you didn't reply to), the ethical look at "rights" isn't just some unicorn. Both of us look at things as "good" and "bad." You think economic freedom is "good" and redistribution of wealth "generally bad." These are both value judgments that don't have any firm basis in reality, and yet you still hold them. Whatever the reasoning (that people are generally happier under economic freedom, that economic freedom sounds cool, etc.), the reasoning still has to be assumed to be a good thing too, and the reasoning for the reasoning being a good thing has to be assumed to be good (and so on). Ethics can't be proved, but it can be built up from a place that almost everyone agrees upon.

Not if they're able to provide for themselves. The purpose of requiring sponsors for immigrants is to ensure that liability for any damage they do can be placed on a person with something significant to lose. It's a form of insurance, similar to the requirement that default-prone renters co-sign with a more asset-laden individual.

My point was that people here right now currently aren't required to be insured or have a sponsor, regardless of their assets. So, if this is Hoppe's position, I fail to see why he wouldn't want the government to require everyone else with few assets to be sponsored. I thought you were a libertarian (I forgot you were the same person I argued with months ago), and so assumed you would see that this would not be a good policy.

This is incorrect. As poor immigrants flow into a democratic state or country, they vote for politicians who promise to expropriate the property of citizens already living there and redistribute it to themselves. The more immigrants there are, the more rapidly this expropriation will occur. Thus an open immigration policy most certainly does make this worse.

Not all of them. Immigrants actually seem to have a pretty small impact, partially because many of them don't vote. You're also ignoring other effects:

1) As immigration increases, current locals tend to become more against welfare. These people also tend to vote.

2) More open borders also brings about competition between countries. If Mexico is losing a bunch of people, they are going to want to incentivize them to return. This generally means more free market policies, especially in the long term, which you have called a "good thing," and certainly means less property restrictions.

3) Why only focus on political changes here? Currently there are massive restrictions on the labor market. Imagine if there was regulation only allowing a certain number of cars to enter the US from other countries per year. Suppose also that local car owners often donated to pro-free market candidates. If we only look at the political change of ending this regulation, yes, it is quite possible that ending this regulation would cause more anti-free market candidates to be elected. But we're also ending an anti-free market policy by allowing cars to enter (meaning people are able to use their property more freely by being allowed to buy foreign cars). Being able to hire foreign labor and to invite people I like onto my property is of far bigger importance than being able to buy a foreign car.

I think it's pretty clear net restrictions on my property would decrease significantly with a more open immigration policy.

I see. So a group or individual that makes use of human shields renders themselves invulnerable to retaliation, in your view? If it is illegitimate to attack a tank/plane/ship with innocent civilians on board, then any army can make itself invincible and slaughter countless civilians itself simply by taking advantage of this fact. Thus, your moral system requires you to commit suicide. This should cause you to rethink it.

One could come up with hundreds of examples like this. For example, if I say theft is wrong, one could bring up an example of one needing to steal a relatively insignificant item to save a large number of people. This doesn't destroy my ethics system, it just shows that there is sometimes something far more important than a minor aggression. The murdering of the people is still wrong and the theft is still wrong, but the additional benefit from the action makes it "worth it." It isn't difficult to see that killing an innocent person is in of itself wrong while still supporting it in extreme circumstances.
 
You possessing the watch after stealing it does not make it right. You possess the watch, but you have no right to possess it. Possession and right are two different things.
It's like you didn't read a word a said. I don't know what else to do at this point other than repeat myself.

Moral realism is false. Nihilism is true. There are no such things as "rights" in the sense that you are using the term.

Now, you are of course welcome do believe in whatever fantasies or fairy tales you like, but doing so will not change the way the world actually is. If someone steals your watch and you can't get it back, then whether you say they have a "right" to possess it or not is 100% irrelevant.
 
And as we see, the government is in fact able to do all of these things. It follows logically that they must indeed possess these rights.

Just to be clear, the main argument you're having with people is because of how you define rights. Imagine if you started a thread that said "People have the right to burn and eat kids." Since they are able to do this, it would follow that they have the right to under your definition. This would naturally bring a bunch of people calling you crazy (because burning kids is clearly wrong). You would argue (correctly under your definition) that people have the right to do this because they are able to do it, while other people would argue (correctly under their definition) that they don't have the right to do this because it is wrong to kill kids. I don't see the point in defining rights in the way you are, because the general population defines it differently, and it would be easier just to say, "The government is able to drop nuclear bombs on its citizens" (or whatever the discussion is about). At the very least, defining your terms when you use them in an unconventional way could prevent much of this back-and-forth.
 
Sorry if I'm not supposed to just post articles from other sites without comment, but I thought this was good enough to be worth sharing/discussing.

Any open-borders libertarians care to comment on Hoppe's piece here?

It's too "central plannery": My job isn't to figure out the "best policy" for the existing welfare state, it's to insulate myself from it's pernicious effects.

It's also curious that he lays out the "private property" solution in the introduction, but abandons it's efficacy when a central state is present. He does this not by showing why private property solutions wouldn't work in spite of state policy, but by shifting his attention from acting individuals to the institution known as the state.

We still have, largely, the right to keep our property free from immigrants. If we have a problem with welfare/social programs subsidizing people, we should, First, do what we can to avoid paying into them. Then, we exercise what little control we have over the state administrating them. The third measure, restricting other people's freedom of movement, shouldn't even be on the table, as it is the least likely to work, the most costly, and the least moral option.

In all, Hoppe is a decent philosopher, but here he either confuses the object of his analysis or deliberately shifts his focus to come up with a pre-determined socially conservative solution.
 
That in no way relates whether an individual would buy a property that could never be sold to certain counter-parties. What this says is, as the owner of the property, you cannot be forced to rent or sell your property to any individual, for any reason. And I 100% agree, Prop 14 shouldn't have needed to be passed in the first place, it is inherit in an individual's property rights.
sigh

You know, I actually seriously considered the possibility that you might be so mind-bogglingly stupid as to think that only the words I put in the post were worth reading rather than the link contained therein as well. I thought about leaving the words out entirely and posting only the link in the hopes that this would encourage you to click it.

In any case, your complete ignorance of property law has caused you to say yet another cringe-inducingly dumb thing. Rather than belabor the point, I'll simply post this:

"A covenant is said to run with the land in the event that the covenant is annexed to the estate and cannot be separated from the land or the land transferred without it. Such a covenant exists if the original owner as well as each successive owner of the property is either subject to its burden or entitled to its benefit. A covenant running with the land is said to touch and concern the property. For example, an individual might own property subject to the restriction that it is only to be used for church purposes. When selling the land, the person can only do so upon an agreement by the buyer that he or she, too, will only use the land for church purposes. The land is thereby burdened or encumbered by a Restrictive Covenant, since the covenant specifically limits the use to which the land can be put. In addition, the covenant runs with the land because it remains attached to it despite subsequent changes in its ownership. This type of covenant is also called a covenant appurtenant.


Certain easements also run with the land. An easement, for example, that permits one landowner to walk across a particular portion of the property of an adjoining landowner in order to gain access to the street would run with the land. Subsequent owners of both plots would take the land subject to such easement.


A covenant in gross is unlike a covenant running with the land in that it is personal, binding only the particular owner and not the land itself. A subsequent owner is not required to keep the promise as one would with a covenant appurtenant."

do you see now that this renders everything you have said on the subject both wrong and retarded

Covenants that run with the land are a thing. They have been a thing for a long time, and they continue to be a thing to this day. A subset of them have been deemed unenforceable because OMG RACISM, but prior to that they were quite popular. Go click the wiki link (I'll quote it for you too):
[h=3]Exclusionary covenants[/h]Before 1948, these covenants were legally used for segregationist purposes.[17]


In the 1920s and 1930s, covenants that restricted the sale or occupation of real property on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion or social class were common in the United States, where the primary intent was to keep "white" neighbourhoods "white". Such covenants were employed by many real estate developers to "protect" entire subdivisions. The purpose of an exclusionary covenant was to prohibit a buyer of property from reselling, leasing or transferring the property to members of a given race, ethnic origin and/ or religion as specified in the title deed. Some covenants, such as those tied to properties in Forest Hills Gardens, New York, also sought to exclude working class people however this type of social segregation was more commonly achieved through the use of high property prices, minimum cost requirements and application reference checks.[18]:131–7 In practice, exclusionary covenants were most typically concerned with keeping out African-Americans, however restrictions against Asian-Americans, Jews and Catholics were not uncommon. For example, the Lake Shore Club District in Pennsylvania, sought to exclude various minorities including Negro, Mongolian, Hungarian, Mexican, Greek and various European immigrants.[18] Cities known for their widespread use of racial covenants include Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, Los Angeles, and St. Louis.
[h=4]History[/h]Racial covenants emerged during the mid-nineteenth century and started to gain prominence from the 1890s onwards. However, it was not until the 1920s that they adopted widespread national significance, a situation that continued until the 1940s. Racial covenants were an alternative to racially restrictive zoning ordinances (residential segregation based on race) that the 1917 US Supreme Court ruling of Buchanan v. Warley invalidated on constitutional grounds.[19][20]:26 Such covenants were upheld by the Court in the 1926 ruling of Corrigan v. Buckley,[21] only later to be declared legal but “unenforceable” in the 1948 decision of Shelley v. Kraemer.[22]


Some commentators have attributed the popularity of exclusionary covenants at this time as a response to the urbanization of black Americans following World War I, and the fear of "black invasion" into white neighborhoods, which they felt would result in depressed property prices, increased nuisance (crime), and social instability.

[gee, I wonder what could have possibly given them THAT idea?]

The reason to not buy a property with such conditions is that, even if it is in your best interest as you determine them, even if it is your desire, you would not be allowed to expand your customer base to include those excluded by the contract.
"This is an economic [cost] of [a restrictive covenant], not an argument [against] it."

oh my peter, it appears that you have been hoisted on your own petard. how very shameful.
how can you achieve 51% of the voting shares when there is a disagreement and only two owners

it's very complicated, so i'm not sure you'll be able to understand, but here goes:

suppose the two parties in question put up different amounts of money for the initial purchase - say 75% came from party A and 25% from party B, and they agreed to divide the voting shares in that ratio (as is common). then party A would have 75% of the voting shares and party B would have 25%.

No, no they don't. I have heard Walmart, etc, referenced exactly zero times as a government.
picard-facepalm31e.jpg

that is because wal-mart is not a corporation of the nature that i described. thus it is not called a government. very good peter.

USG, on the other hand, IS such a corporation. and it is indeed called a government. it's right there in the title: United States Government.
 
Is it fair to say, mucus, that you have derailed so far from the original intent of this thread because Hoppe's writing is indefensible garbage? Also, is it fair to say you too disagree with Hoppe's piece, other than the historical aspects and the advocation for European only immigration?
no peter, those are not fair things to say
 
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