On Faith: Can a Christian be a libertarian?

[Created4]

They envision a future in which non-Christians will eventually be relatively few in number and surrender the public square to Christian rule.

Do you have a source for that? I am not a Reconstructionist nor an expert on their teaching, but I believe their view of a future society with the majority of the population being Christian (not my view) is based on evangelism, and voluntary conversion, not coercion. Just want to make sure you are not setting up a straw man to knock down here...

 

[AFPVet]

Libertarianism is the closest in my opinion that matches the spirit of God.

To me there are many realms of thinking that confuse a persons mind about there role on Earth as a Christian

1. The first is the Zionist view that as a christian i should be compelled to establish Israels prominence on earth.Theres many flaws with that.The most basic one is the Golden Rule.Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.Alot of Christians are so zealous to back Israel they dont care about right or wrong or if others are trampled in the process(mainly the Palestinians)which is in contrast to the Golden rule.
The second flaw in the Zionist way of thinking is that Israel is the most important thing in Gods plan here on earth.While the Jews are Gods chosen people it was only for the purpose to have them be the original seed on earth to establish the word of God.It was not Gods will for Israel to always be Gods system to express his Spirit on earth The Pre-Christ time of Israel was the period where believers(Jews) were under the Law and thus subjected to the style of teaching, where like a parent teaches a child,the people are told to do this ,dont do that because i say so.That system gave the Israel Government authority over the people as a means to teach the spirit of God through laws that they enforced and establish the Temple to make sacrifice for the atonement of sin.

After Christ came we were given the Holy Spirit which took away the need for a centralized platform to express the spirit of God to the world.That started the second stage in Gods plan (which is to raise the people up to be like minded as Him).With the aid of the Holy Spirit we now have the word in our heart and are no longer in need of a teacher to bring us to righteousness.We also have no need for a temple to atone for sin because of Christs resurrection.

This is what brings us to Libertarianism,for now that the Spirit of God is indwelled in us, we have no need for a centralized Government to teach the people righteousness.Through this new system man is given free will through the Spirit to determine for themselves what is right and wrong,thus making themselves responsible for what they do in there life.This idea is why its not Gods will for there to be laws dictating morals, for God will be the only Judge now of the motives of a mans heart.It also goes against preemptive laws.For man alone now has personal responsibility for there actions

.The only responsibility now of Government is to protect life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I agree!

 

[Sola_Fide]

Which proves what? Being non-interventionist or a Ron Paul supporter doen't make one a libertarian.

I didn't say they were libertarians, I said they weren't interventionists, which is true.

Michele Bachmann for example, is not a Dominionist (as someone here just intimated).

I don't want to come off sounding like I am defending Reconstructionists, because I think there are flaws in their theology, but at least get your labels right. Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry are not "Dominionists".

 

[Philosophy_of_Politics]

Despite what many Christians would say, America was not founded on Christianity. It was however, founded on the same principles of Christianity. The principles and foundation of Christianity is perhaps "the most free" religion in the modern world. It would only make sense for the founders to understand why these principles were important and necessary, but also still important for them to remember what happens when religion and government become the same.

 

[Jovan Galtic]

Libertarianism is the closest in my opinion that matches the spirit of God.

To me there are many realms of thinking that confuse a persons mind about there role on Earth as a Christian

1. The first is the Zionist view that as a christian i should be compelled to establish Israels prominence on earth.Theres many flaws with that.The most basic one is the Golden Rule.Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.Alot of Christians are so zealous to back Israel they dont care about right or wrong or if others are trampled in the process(mainly the Palestinians)which is in contrast to the Golden rule.
The second flaw in the Zionist way of thinking is that Israel is the most important thing in Gods plan here on earth.While the Jews are Gods chosen people it was only for the purpose to have them be the original seed on earth to establish the word of God.It was not Gods will for Israel to always be Gods system to express his Spirit on earth The Pre-Christ time of Israel was the period where believers(Jews) were under the Law and thus subjected to the style of teaching, where like a parent teaches a child,the people are told to do this ,dont do that because i say so.That system gave the Israel Government authority over the people as a means to teach the spirit of God through laws that they enforced and establish the Temple to make sacrifice for the atonement of sin.

After Christ came we were given the Holy Spirit which took away the need for a centralized platform to express the spirit of God to the world.That started the second stage in Gods plan (which is to raise the people up to be like minded as Him).With the aid of the Holy Spirit we now have the word in our heart and are no longer in need of a teacher to bring us to righteousness.We also have no need for a temple to atone for sin because of Christs resurrection.

This is what brings us to Libertarianism,for now that the Spirit of God is indwelled in us, we have no need for a centralized Government to teach the people righteousness.Through this new system man is given free will through the Spirit to determine for themselves what is right and wrong,thus making themselves responsible for what they do in there life.This idea is why its not Gods will for there to be laws dictating morals, for God will be the only Judge now of the motives of a mans heart.It also goes against preemptive laws.For man alone now has personal responsibility for there actions

.The only responsibility now of Government is to protect life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Excellent. In the Old Testament Jews were the chosen people for what? They were chosen for the Messiah (gr. Christos) to be born among them. Now that the Christos is born their Old Testament mission is "fulfilled" (Mat 5:17), there is nothing special in their nation in the New Testament. They are just people like everyone else (Rom 10:12), we are all invited to follow our Lord.

And Liberty is the only choice for Christians because any use of force (other than in self-defense) is absolutely against our faith. Unfortunately, not many understand that...

 

[Okie RP fan]

Based off the pure question:

Yes.

I was raised a Christian, and still am. I don't attend a church, but I pray to God daily and do my best to read my Bible and do what Jesus would have me do.

I would consider myself a conservative libertarian, as I'm sure many on here would also do. I see the mixture of the two (conservatism and libertarianism) as the most pro-Christian ideology.

Kind of sacrilegious and silly to label a religion in with a political ideology, but, that's my very basic sense of who I am and what I think of the subject.

It's funny how the Fox News types think libertarians are some spawn of the devil... Actually, it's not funny, it's sad to see how they've been warped into such thinking.

 

[roversaurus]

I am both so I think so.
People are created with an innate need for faith. Too many people have faith in government today. When worried about losing their job they turn to government. When worried about losing their health they turn to government. They are able to get through the day without fear because in the back of their mind they know that if something goes wrong the government will care for them. The economy won't collapse. The Huns won't invade. Their faith in government keeps them from worry. Just like I child thinks that they are safe from harm because their parents will protect them....

The problem is that it is all a charade. A parent cannot protect a child 100% even though they tell them they can. The government can't do it either. They just tell people they can. In the end prayer is all that is left.

Big government gives people assurances that the boogyman will not take them in the night. And when they wake up safe they think the government did it. Just as they think their parents or their prayers saved them. Nothing protects you from the boogy man when he strikes. Only prayer helps you to deal with the strike when it comes.

 

[BKom]

Yes, Bachmann and Perry are both dominionists. They are not reconstructionists, who are usually associated with the word dominionist because their teachings use it so often. But since they believe that Christianity should be the ruling principle of the government of this country, I think it's safe to assume they are dominionists. They believe their religion needs to be insinuated into everyone's life through political means. That is the essence of dominionism.

I live by the assumption that everyone's religion is the expression of a human need to feel special. To feel like someone or something is looking out for them. I get that. But it's primitive nonetheless. Can I live with that? Sure I can. I can tolerate anyone else's need to feel special by having a vivid imagination as long as they don't expect me to share it. And there's the rub. Dominionism and its kissing cousins can't tolerate me and others like me believing something other than their religion.

And not only are Perry and Bachmann dominionists for this country. They are interested in embroiling the U.S. in a holy war against Islam. Not Islamic fundamentalists. But any Islamic country. Especially Bachmann, and I think we can add Santorum to that.

 

[BKom]

oops

 

[BKom]

Do you have a source for that? I am not a Reconstructionist nor an expert on their teaching, but I believe their view of a future society with the majority of the population being Christian (not my view) is based on evangelism, and voluntary conversion, not coercion. Just want to make sure you are not setting up a straw man to knock down here...

No interest in strawmen. Don't remember where I grabbed that particular statement from, but it's one I've seen in a lot of places. And if the dominionists are interested in using political means to effect their policies, which they definitely are, that is a correct statement. There is nothing non-coercive in acting politically to achieve these ends. You don't run for office to effect voluntary conversion. You rent out a hall and distribute flyers. It's called a church.

 

[Created4]

No interest in strawmen. Don't remember where I grabbed that particular statement from, but it's one I've seen in a lot of places. And if the dominionists are interested in using political means to effect their policies, which they definitely are, that is a correct statement. There is nothing non-coercive in acting politically to achieve these ends. You don't run for office to effect voluntary conversion. You rent out a hall and distribute flyers. It's called a church.

Definitely setting up a straw man here, especially when you accuse them of running for office for the purpose of affecting conversion. Show your sources for this thinking you define as "dominionists."

 

[BKom]

Excellent. In the Old Testament Jews were the chosen people for what? They were chosen for the Messiah (gr. Christos) to be born among them. Now that the Christos is born their Old Testament mission is "fulfilled" (Mat 5:17), there is nothing special in their nation in the New Testament. They are just people like everyone else (Rom 10:12), we are all invited to follow our Lord.

And Liberty is the only choice for Christians because any use of force (other than in self-defense) is absolutely against our faith. Unfortunately, not many understand that...

The entire line of reasoning in the post you were responding to is by its very nature a fantasy. It is a rigid belief system based on nothing. Jews were the "chosen people" because they wrote a book. Then they were "unchosen" because some other people wrote a book. If Dr. Seuss had written a book discounting the first two, there'd likely be a third religion born of it. I hear people say stuff like this and I think I've gone through the looking glass. A delusional belief system is a form of clinical insanity. The truth is that all people are valuable. And they should treat other people the way they'd like to be treated. And Israel is not the United States' problem. Not because god unchose them. Because they're another country.

 

[EllisIslandNJ]

Glad to be here!

Btw, Acton is great for teaching Roman Catholics in particular about liberty.

 

[BKom]

Read Gary North. He's a buddy of Ron's and the author of tons of books on the subject. His father in law, Rushdoony, invented it. Read their stuff and tell me you don't get a chill up and down your spine. Sorry to upset you, but it seems you haven't read much about the subject. It's easy to react emotionally. It's tougher to actually do the work and read stuff yourself.

 

[G-Wohl]

Not bad. The truth is that no political philosophy is either more or less "Christian."

This is very untrue. The Christian virtue of being 'your brother's keeper' does not hold up well *at all* with many political philosophies, and greatly falls in line with others. Theocracy, socialism, and feudalism all are far more favorable for the Christian morality than, say, capitalism. (Note: capitalism ≠ libertarianism in this context). Of course, the altruistic morality of religion in general and the requirement that you surrender your mind to faith are both telling impediments to one's complete and full grasp of objective law and, therefore, objective reality - natural metaphysical requirements for the acceptance of capitalism, however, not necessarily for libertarianism at all.

For more, see Ayn Rand's Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal - particularly the essay "What Is Capitalism?" - regarding the moral justification for capitalism:

"The moral justification of capitalism does not lie in the altruist claim that it represents the best way to achieve “the common good.” It is true that capitalism does—if that catch-phrase has any meaning—but this is merely a secondary consequence. The moral justification of capitalism lies in the fact that it is the only system consonant with man’s rational nature, that it protects man’s survival qua man, and that its ruling principle is: justice."

Capitalism couldn't get any more non-Christian.

 

[sailingaway]

Read Gary North. He's a buddy of Ron's and the author of tons of books on the subject. His father in law, Rushdoony, invented it. Read their stuff and tell me you don't get a chill up and down your spine. Sorry to upset you, but it seems you haven't read much about the subject. It's easy to react emotionally. It's tougher to actually do the work and read stuff yourself.

You are very convinced your religious beliefs are correct, as are other people that theirs are, of course.

 

[givemeliberty2010]

I didn't say they were libertarians, I said they weren't interventionists, which is true.

Michele Bachmann for example, is not a Dominionist (as someone here just intimated).

I don't want to come off sounding like I am defending Reconstructionists, because I think there are flaws in their theology, but at least get your labels right. Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry are not "Dominionists".

Then what was is that you mianly disagreed with BKom about? Wasn't it that he said Reconstructionists didn't represent the true principles of Christianity, which he said were libertarian? And please correct me if I misunderstood BKom, as well.

 

[The Midnight Ride]

Really hate to repost this but I am having no luck finding anything on the subject. In case it was skipped over:

Would anyone happen to know where I could find a similar article tailored toward Judaism? I know there is significant overlap between the Abrahamic Religions but something more direct would be appreciated!

Thanks!