OLD THREAD:Gold will plummet: the dollar will strengthen.

No, they did not tighten credit. As I explained to you, the discount rate is meaningless. Not only is nobody using the discount window, nobody needs to use the discount window as plenty of funds are available for much less than the discount rate.

Also as I have explained, the federal funds rate is meaningless in this monetary environment. The only thing the Fed can do now to manipulate interest rates is to adjust the interest rate paid on reserves. They did not do that. But even raising the interest rate on reserves means nothing more than more money for the banks if the Fed does not drain reserves from the banking system.

Not only is the Fed not draining reserves, it is aggressively added to them.

Brian

The banks did tighten credit for businesses and the general public starting at the first of this year. The banks loan to other banks; that has not helped the economy. Banks need to start loaning to consumers and businesses, but they won't because they are claiming that people are not "credit worthy". I realize that the raising the discount rate was nothing more than noise, but if rates rise as they are now, people will jump out of gold and into investments that pay higher interest.

More money given to the banks means nothing if it is not injected into the system as loans to the general public. They can print trillions more with QE, but if it isn't loaned out and is only held by the banks, how does this help our economy? History shows that gold goes down when interest rates go up, but since we are facing a financial Armageddon, gold may continue to rise. But as things get worse and corporate executives are dumpster diving I believe the average person will dump their gold to buy food.

Another point: the world is not ignorant anymore about gold and fiat currencies. Everyday on cable TV economic collapse is being discussed, even by the liberals. So, why did gold collapse today? There is absolutely no reason in our economic climate of rabid fear that gold should drop, and yet it is. Why?

Answer: Bank manipulation
 
Gold is not plummeting. If you think Gold is plummeting, you have no experience in these types of markets.

You can see some of my recent trading comments on Gold and the S&P here ... http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=268482.

These corrections are not only expected, they are predictable within several ticks. This is healthy in a Gold/Silver bull market. Buying strength must always be renewed. Silver approaching $30 this fast is insanity. But it will get there in time.

I took significant profits in Gold and Silver bullion and mining stocks a couple of weeks ago and have been trading the obvious patterns. I expect a correction to more sane levels. But it is just that ... a correction. We are not in a bubble (the often repeated phrase by the clueless media) and Gold is not doomed ... we are in an expected corrective pattern ... and when completed, we will be challenging new highs after buying strength is renewed. I do not have a target to the downside yet. I just hope I did not take profits too early on my core holdings. My bias is only somewhat bearish in the short term.

As for the US Dollar, it has staged a couple of very meek rallies (from very low levels ... the US Dollar has been a dog this year) ... only to be rebuffed and turn lower. It has failed to take out several look-to-the-left peaks on the chart, which is bearish. The 78.70 level on the cash index needs to be taken out before we can even consider the Dollar staging any sort of rally. Reaching this level will result in more corrective action in Gold/Silver.

Brian

Let me know where the bottom is, I want to buy some gold. If I make a profit I would like to give a percentage to Dr. Paul's presidential campaign. I'm scared of day trading, but you seem to know what you are doing. Max Keiser says gold will go to $4,000 an ounce, do you think it will reach that?
 
The banks did tighten credit for businesses and the general public starting at the first of this year. The banks loan to other banks; that has not helped the economy. Banks need to start loaning to consumers and businesses, but they won't because they are claiming that people are not "credit worthy". I realize that the raising the discount rate was nothing more than noise, but if rates rise as they are now, people will jump out of gold and into investments that pay higher interest.
I will try one more time.

You are not looking at the macro picture close enough. The banks tightened credit beginning in late 2008 (and has remained tight), not early 2010. But the Fed has entered the picture with immense amounts of credit, overwhelming what the banks are not doing. The market also discounts into the future what will happen once the banks utilize more of their massive reserves. This is why Gold is going up and will continue to go up until the Fed signals a real reversal of course. I have explained in detail (you can reread the articles) what reversing course means. Not only has the Fed not reversed course, it is stepping on the accelerator.

More money given to the banks means nothing if it is not injected into the system as loans to the general public. They can print trillions more with QE, but if it isn't loaned out and is only held by the banks, how does this help our economy?
Wrong again. Bank lending is not the only way money supply increases. Money supply also increases when banks invest their reserves (it is the equivalent of lending). While the banks have been much more conservative in investing their reserves than most of the gold bulls in the media have claimed, there is some investing happening here. We know this because excess reserves are declining modestly (relative to total reserves) and required reserves are increasing modestly (relative to total reserves). This is money entering the economy. The result has been once again (after a lull) modest increasing money supply in the past year.

Also, I never claimed that net Fed asset purchases (what you refer to as QE) helps the economy. While it can help selected industries short term, it hurts the economy in the long term. It also creates asset bubbles, hence the rising prices in precious metals (despite your continual predictions that they are doomed) and other commodities. This is the market discounting mechanism at work.

Also, do not discount the money supply increase directly introduced by the Fed. The Fed, currently, is not transacting directly with banks as it did with the TAF and other credit programs. These programs only increased reserves and did not increase money supply. The asset purchases in the last ~18 months have been transacted with the primary dealers. This results in deposit money being created (increase in both reserves and money supply).

So, why did gold collapse today? There is absolutely no reason in our economic climate of rabid fear that gold should drop, and yet it is. Why?

First, Gold did not collapse. Second, this is simply speculator profit taking. I am one of those taking profits. This action is not unexpected nor out of the ordinary.

Brian
 
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Let me know where the bottom is, I want to buy some gold. If I make a profit I would like to give a percentage to Dr. Paul's presidential campaign. I'm scared of day trading, but you seem to know what you are doing. Max Keiser says gold will go to $4,000 an ounce, do you think it will reach that?

Why didn't you buy it when you started this thread and the conventional wisdom was that it was still a good buy and undervalued? You could have turned some of your 40% in profits to Dr. Paul's campaign.
 
Why didn't you buy it when you started this thread and the conventional wisdom was that it was still a good buy and undervalued? You could have turned some of your 40% in profits to Dr. Paul's campaign.

I had just done research on the Fed for a college paper and one thing Griffin and other authors made clear is that there is a severe deflation before hyper-inflation. When a bubble "busts" the banks have always tightened credit and raised interest rates, wiping everybody out and buying up assets real cheap. Our government is no different than any other government: it will do whatever it takes to stay alive, even if it means price and wage controls, and by making laws that it is illegal to hoard food, guns and PM's.

We are entering uncharted waters. Gold was going up while the dollar was going up, and that is unheard of. Gonegolfin says gold dropped $60 today because he and other speculators took their profits. If speculators can drive the price up and down while we wait for a financial apocalypse, what would happen to the price of gold if all the hip-hop rappers in Compton sold their "bling"? :D

I didn't buy back in October because of historical trends, but if gonegolfin tells us at what price to buy in I would like to try some day trading since he has had good results.
 
Brain,

A couple of questions I have:

1) you said that the banks have been using the money paid to them by the Fed for the toxic MBS to purchase assets, which include gold, but that they haven't created a gold "bubble" by doing so. How do you know this? Is there a record of how much gold the banks are buying?

2) you and other speculators sold gold to take profits; causing gold to drop $60. That means that there are millions of small time speculators who are working the same system as you to cause such an effect. I assume you and others find the spots to buy and sell by studying charts. Yet the banks are buying gold. Are they too studying charts to know when to "buy" and "sell". I find it difficult to believe they are doing so. So, who is driving the gold market, the speculators who use charts, pendulums and crystals, or the banks?
 
This is a classic bubble scenario.

Bagholders abound. Don't be the last one out the door.

To the people promoting it, like Lebed, it's just another penny stock. Only, this one lets them move more cash.
 
Two directors of Agoracom will pay a total of $150,000 and face trading and employment restrictions under a settlement agreement that was approved Friday by Ontario's securities regulator.

Agoracom, which runs a website that does investor relations for public companies listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange and TSX Venture Exchange, will also post a notice about the settlement on www.Agoracom.com.

Agoracom founder George Tsiolis and dealer Apostolis (Paul) Kondakos acknowledged they required Agoracom staff to use hundreds of fake names and pose as investors in thousands of messages on the firm's public online forums.

Kondakos, the firm's chief compliance officer, also intercepted private messages between public users of the forum from July 2008 to February 2009 to gather information about companies in which he was invested.

Under the settlement agreement, the Ontario Securities Commission has suspended the two men's registrations as investment professionals for 10 years.

They are also permanently prohibited from being a director or officer of any client of Agoracom or its affiliates and prohibited from being a director or officer of any public company, registrant or investment fund manager for five years.

They also aren't allowed to trade or invest in any client of Agoracom.

The two men will pay a total of $25,000 towards the costs of the OSC investigation and $125,000 to a fund administered by the commission.

http://www.thestar.com/business/art...spended-fined-for-activities-on-investor-site

This probably had more to do with Gold's recent fall than anything else.

Agoracom is a major promoter in the Gold bubble and many of the PM commodity stock scams that have been popping up.
 
Yes, but how will Americans invest in oil and agriculture if there are no dollars in circulation? The dollar is our legal tender. Whether Americans have faith or not in the dollar is irrelevant, because they need the dollar to buy food. It is our currency after all. Our money is worthless now. Are you saying it will become “more worthless”? Our dollar is our “legal tender” of trade and when there is a shortage of it, it will go up in value. It is strictly supply and demand. Also, even if China, Russia and OPEC come up with a basket currency backed by gold/silver and oil it will be illegal to use as legal tender here in the U.S. In a nut shell, they American people are going to be wiped out. How else will we have communism? When people are hungry and thinking about their next meal, they are not worried about credit default swaps and derivatives.

Who care what our legal tender is? International corporations? Holding assets in several different regions. When there is a shortage of dollars NOW unlike in the PAST, corporation will simply find a new curreny.
 
Brain,

A couple of questions I have:
That would be Brian.

1) you said that the banks have been using the money paid to them by the Fed for the toxic MBS to purchase assets, which include gold,
I said no such thing (re: Gold).

Also, you are also still confused about how the Fed operates. The Fed has conducted its treasury and MBS asset purchases via the primary dealers (as counterparties). It is not purchasing these assets from the depository institutions themselves.

Brian
 
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First of all, it is Brian.


I said no such thing (re: Gold).

Also, you are also still confused about how the Fed operates. The Fed has conducted its treasury and MBS asset purchases via the primary dealers (as counterparties). It is not purchasing these assets from the depository institutions themselves.

Brian

I'm sorry Brian, that was an honest misspelling of your name. Actually, that would be a fitting nickname for you. :) You are very well informed on these matters. Thank you for bearing with me.

You edited your comment and I thought you had said that gold was one of the assets that the banks were purchasing with the reserves but you have clarified that. So, I think what you are saying is that the banks are sitting on the reserves and not loaning them nor buying PM's, but holding on to them to fulfill their reserve requirements. What exactly are the banks doing with the quantitative easing monies? This $600 billion that Benanke is pulling out of thin air; isn't that created on the backs of the American taxpayer? If so, how does the Fed justify purchasing bonds on the market at the expense of the taxpayer? Is the debt to the public to be wiped out when the Fed extinguishes the reserves?

Also, you did say that gold on Friday pulled back because speculators such as yourself took profits. That means you and millions of other other speculators are unknowingly working together buying and selling. If you and other speculators are causing the market to fall when you sell, then are you and the other speculators controlling the market? Or, is it financial powers higher up controlling the gold market? My concern is that you and other speculators are studying the charts and will continue to be spot on; buying and selling, and then BOOM!! The guys at the top yank the chain and you and millions of other speculators get wiped out! Is this scenario feasible?
 
You edited your comment and I thought you had said that gold was one of the assets that the banks were purchasing with the reserves but you have clarified that. So, I think what you are saying is that the banks are sitting on the reserves and not loaning them nor buying PM's, but holding on to them to fulfill their reserve requirements.
I merely edited my comment in the last post to ensure you understood I was taking issue with your claim that I said anything about the banks buying Gold.

Recall from earlier in this thread, I replied to you concerning the banks and their excess reserves ...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2981212&postcount=123

"Bank lending is not the only way money supply increases. Money supply also increases when banks invest their reserves (it is the money supply equivalent of lending). While the banks have been much more conservative in investing their reserves than most of the gold bulls in the media have claimed, there is some investing/lending happening here. We know this because excess reserves are declining modestly (relative to total reserves) and required reserves are increasing modestly (relative to total reserves). This is money entering the economy. The result has been once again (after a lull) modest increasing money supply in the past year."

Thus ... banks are not holding onto these massive levels of reserves to meet their reserve requirements (this makes no sense). Required reserves are low ... excess reserves are high. I stated there is some amount of lending/investing by the banks as evidenced by the monetary stats cited above. However, they are keeping a substantial amount of excess reserves as they are being paid interest by the Fed on reserves and they are fearful of the quality of assets on their respective balance sheets. Hence, they are keeping a healthy amount of excess reserves on hand.

There is no evidence to suggest that the banks have been buying Gold. But I have not taken a position on this. I am merely stating that the banks are holding most of their reserves ... but have been lending/investing a modest amount as evidenced by the monetary stats.

What exactly are the banks doing with the quantitative easing monies?
Mostly holding them as reserves. There is some lending happening. There is some investment (purchases of securities) taking place. I would venture to say that most of the investment is in treasuries (mostly short to intermediate term) ... but I am sure there is some equity investment.

This $600 billion that Benanke is pulling out of thin air; isn't that created on the backs of the American taxpayer?
It depends what you mean by that. Certainly it debases the currency. The purchases result in an immediate increase of narrow money supply (M1) as the purchases are made from the primary dealers.

If so, how does the Fed justify purchasing bonds on the market at the expense of the taxpayer? Is the debt to the public to be wiped out when the Fed extinguishes the reserves?
I am not going to defend the QE actions of the Fed as I believe they are misguided and wrongheaded. However, you do understand that we would not have our current monetary system without the Fed purchasing assets (it should purchase assets of no less quality than US treasuries ... and has ... at least traditionally ... but no more), right? This is how money comes into existence in our monetary system. So, if you understand this, you will understand that your first question in the above paragraph must be reworded (changed significantly) if you were to ask this question of the central bank establishment and engage in a meaningful discussion.

Why would you think that extinguishing reserves would repudiate the government debt? This simply lowers the quantity of reserves in the banking system. Reserves are extinguished when the Fed either 1) sells the purchased treasuries back into the marketplace or 2) allows the purchased treasuries to mature (obviously this is passive and requires no action by the Fed). In #1, obviously the debt still exists ... someone else now owns it. In #2, the US Treasury has made good on its principal payment (repaid the loan). The Treasury can then choose to lower outstanding debt (by doing nothing but simply repaying the principal) or issues more securities in another auction (which it always does) to replace the debt (debt rollover).

Of course the Fed can also extinguish reserves by selling (or allowing to mature) other assets held on the balance sheet (Ex. MBSs) ... I was keeping it simple.

Also, you did say that gold on Friday pulled back because speculators such as yourself took profits. That means you and millions of other other speculators are unknowingly working together buying and selling. If you and other speculators are causing the market to fall when you sell, then are you and the other speculators controlling the market? Or, is it financial powers higher up controlling the gold market? My concern is that you and other speculators are studying the charts and will continue to be spot on; buying and selling, and then BOOM!! The guys at the top yank the chain and you and millions of other speculators get wiped out! Is this scenario feasible?
The market is controlled by a myriad of forces ... not just the "Managed Money" section of the COT report .. or the "Managed Money" + small speculators. But the "Managed Money" players consistently hold the dominant long positions in PMs. They are offset by the commercial hedgers as well as the "Swap Dealers". In a bull market, speculators are going to take profits. Nothing goes up or down in a straight line. When the traditionally long speculators take profits, you are going to have pullbacks.

Yes, the "Managed Money" has been taken to the cleaners often in the past (Silver and Gold). I do sense that the tables are turning ... as evidenced by JP Morgan throwing in the towel two weeks ago in Silver and leaving the local traders (whom were also in cahoots and short) in London out to dry. The pullbacks in June/July 2010 and November/December 2009 were also much less severe as in past years after large runnups in price.

As for myself, most of the trading portion of my portfolio (as opposed to my core long term investments) is strictly technical in nature. Which means I will go long or short (or sometimes simply go to cash), depending on what my trading systems tells me.

Brian
 
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bump...because I have been reading that some gold bugs are nervous about gold.
 
bump...because I have been reading that some gold bugs are nervous about gold.

I'm not a gold bug, but I am getting more nervous as the number of dollars to purchase 1oz of Gold keeps rising...
 
Which bugs? I will see to it that they are taken care of.

cubical ---I don't know if you read the entire thread, but what has intrigued me as of lately is the concern by gold bugs on other forums that we may be in a "gold bubble". What we do all agree on is that PM's have been manipulated. At what price will they manipulate gold to rip everybody off?
 
Do you guys think that the price of gold and silver will ever fall? or Will we continue to see prices rise
 
cubical ---I don't know if you read the entire thread, but what has intrigued me as of lately is the concern by gold bugs on other forums that we may be in a "gold bubble". What we do all agree on is that PM's have been manipulated. At what price will they manipulate gold to rip everybody off?

Yeah, I remember reading parts of it.

I think gold bugs will be proven right when the US literally defaults, or inflation becomes a day to day, average joe topic. They will be proven wrong when the fed sucks in dollars paired with government solvency. imo gold bugs that jump ship based on easing tensions in the middle east or on other shorter term problems going away are a different breed than what you see on here.
 
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