Obamacare, details are out. Poor people and their heirs are scr*wed.

klamath

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Jun 29, 2007
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Can't afford healthcare now?
Pay the penalty or buy through the health insurance exchange?
Here is how it is going down.
If you buy into the exchange, so you can pay as much as you can right? However here is the kicker. If you are poor enough to qualify for Medicaid you Will automatically be switched over to that whether you buy at the exchange and you won't have to pay anything. Great don't they love poor people! Ah but here it is. There is a lean against everything you own when you die to pay back the state whether or not you EVER used Medicaid. They collect by Their average cost of Medicaid NOT what you use. Your heirs just lost everything they would have inherited. All those poor people that worked all their lives to buy a house just were forced to give the state what they saved for their family. Lots and lots of houses and property are going to be owned by the government and it won't be coming from rich families but honest hard working low income people's families.
If you love your children pay the penalty.
 
bump for link to this, dear god we are screwed

That we are screwed goes without saying, I'm just looking to verify the degree to which we are screwed. This sounds a bit over the top at this stage of their game.
 
Is this true? (Perhaps not). This is from a Law website.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2013/09/no-health-insurance-pay-a-penalty-under-obamacare.html
No Criminal Penalties

If you fail to obtain sufficient coverage by the Obamacare mandate deadline, the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) will collect that penalty from you through your 2014 tax return.

An IRS spokesman told U.S. News and World Report that the penalty will either "offset any refund" or "add to any balance due" on each year's tax return.

According to Forbes, the IRS cannot pursue you for criminal tax evasion if you refuse to pay the mandate penalty, and no tax liens will be imposed on your assets for the penalty amounts.

It is still unclear how aggressive the IRS will be in collecting the Obamacare penalty. But uninsured Americans who are expecting money back on their returns may find a penalty-sized hole in their IRS refund checks.

Penalties Increase Annually

Many Americans may choose to pay the penalty in 2014 in lieu of paying for health insurance. But note that the penalty is slated to increase each year:
•In 2015, it goes up to $325 or 2 percent of your household income, whichever is greater;
•In 2016, it goes up to $695 or 2.5 percent of your household income, whichever is greater; and
•In 2017 and beyond, it goes up to $695 plus a cost-of-living adjustment, or 2.5 percent of your household income, whichever is greater.

Forbes reports that because of the gap between the penalties and rising insurance costs, some Americans who feel they don't need health insurance may just choose to continue paying the penalty if it's cheaper.
 
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I don't doubt it. If I recall here in Texas if you are on welfare and have to go into a nursing home paid for by the state, they take your assets. I'm not sure if that is still the case but I think it has been in the past.
 
I don't doubt it. If I recall here in Texas if you are on welfare and have to go into a nursing home paid for by the state, they take your assets. I'm not sure if that is still the case but I think it has been in the past.

That's true from what I've read so far, but hey...ya gotta implement the bill to find out what's in it, right? So, could be and we just don't know yet.
 

But that is about if you don't take it and refuse to pay the penalty. The OP is about buying at the exchange but being put into Medicaid because of your income level.

According to Forbes, the IRS cannot pursue you for criminal tax evasion if you refuse to pay the mandate penalty, and no tax liens will be imposed on your assets for the penalty amounts.
 
Here's is the part that covers it from the link.

5. MEDICAID EXPANSION AND ESTATE RECOVERY

In order to expand Medicaid, several Medicaid regulations were changed:

a) the income limit for eligibility was increased to 133 percent FPL, but since states must apply a 5 percent disregard, this effectively raises the eligibility to 138 percent FPL
b) Modified Adjusted Gross Income will be used in most cases to determine eligibility (also applies to certain CHIP applicants)
c) the age limit was increased to 64, childless adults will be eligible; and
d) the asset test was dropped except for certain groups such as the elderly and people on Social Security Disability – BINGO!

The fact that the asset test was dropped is very important, but before we look at why, you must first understand that if an Exchange determines you are eligible for Medicaid, you have no other choice. Code for Exchanges specifies, “an applicant is not eligible for advance payment of the premium tax credit (a subsidized plan) or cost-sharing reductions to the extent that he or she is eligible for other minimum essential coverage, including coverage under Medicaid and CHIP.” Therefore, you will be tossed into Medicaid unless there are specific rules as to why you would not be eligible. If you are enrolled in a private plan through an Exchange and have been receiving a tax credit, and your income decreases making you eligible for Medicaid, in you go. If you are allowed to opt out because you don’t want Medicaid, you will have to pay a penalty for being uninsured unless you can afford to purchase insurance in the open market.

Just so you’re clear on this: the ACA stipulates that the system will ensure that if any individual applying to an Exchange is found to be eligible for Medicaid or a state children’s health insurance program (CHIP), the individual will be enrolled in such a plan.

Furthermore, to increase enrollment in health coverage without requiring people to complete an application on their own, states are advised to automate enrollment whenever possible by using existing databases for social services programs such as SNAP (food stamps) to enroll people who appear eligible for Medicaid but are not currently enrolled. Therefore, you could find yourself auto-enrolled in Medicaid against your will if your state acts on this advice.

Many times over Mr. Obama et al told you that all Americans would have choice. Choice was another big talking point. Are poor and low-income Americans undeserving of choice? Is the ACA a class-based system? Maybe they meant that for this segment of the population, the choice would be between Medicaid or a penalty for remaining uninsured. This is blatant discrimination.

Here’s why dropping the asset test got the BINGO – Estate Recovery! You won’t find the following info in the ACA. It’s in the Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1993 (OBRA 1993) – a federal statute which applies to Medicaid, and, if you are enrolled in Medicaid, it will apply to you depending on your age.

a) OBRA 1993 requires all states that receive Medicaid funding to seek recovery from the estates of deceased individuals who used Medicaid benefits at age 55 or older. It allows recovery for any items or services under the state Medicaid plan going beyond nursing homes and other long-term care institutions. In fact, The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) site says that states have the option of recovering payments for all Medicaid services provided. The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) site says at state option, recovery can be pursued for any items covered by the Medicaid state plan.

b) The HHS site has an overview of the Medicaid estate recovery mandate which also says that at a minimum, states must pursue recoveries from the “probate estate,” which includes property that passes to the heirs under state probate law, but states can expand the definition of estate to allow recovery from property that bypasses probate. This means states can use procedures for direct recovery from bank accounts and other funds.

c) Some states use recovery for RX and hospital only as required by OBRA 1993; some recover for a few additional benefits and some recover for all benefits under the state plan. Recovery provides revenue for cash-strapped states and it’s a big business.

Your estate is what you own when you die – your home and what’s in it, other real estate you may own, your bank account, annuities and so on. And even if you have a will, your heirs are chopped liver. Low-income people often have only one major asset – the home in which they live and, in some cases, this has been the family home through several generations.

So what this boils down to is: if you are put into Medicaid – congratulations – you just got a mandated collateral loan if you use Medicaid benefits at age 55 or older! States keep a running tally.

Estate recovery can be exempted or deferred in certain situations after your death, but the regulations for this are limited and complicated with multitudes of conditions. You may not have an attorney on speed dial, but with regard to this hundred pound gorilla, it sure would be handy.

Should you decide to ask your congresscritter about estate recovery, be prepared for responses such as:

— “Estate recovery doesn’t apply to you.” (Great news. Please overnight a copy of the amendment to OBRA 1993 that stipulates estate recovery is no longer required and no longer allowed. Here’s my address.)
— “Oh, estate recovery is state, I’m federal.” (Wrong – estate recovery is federally mandated although the estate recovery program itself is administered by each state.)
— “I don’t know anything about this.” (Highly unlikely because the expansion of Medicaid is an integral part of the ACA and estate recovery is not a secret.)
— “The ACA wasn’t about revamping Medicaid.” (As explained above, Medicaid regs were revised in order to expand Medicaid.)
— “I’ll look into that and get back to you.” (Don’t hold your breath – they don’t want to go there.)

If you ask about estate recovery when you contact an Exchange or speak with an outreach agency, you’ll probably run into a brick wall or be told it doesn’t apply to you – whatever. But, it doesn’t matter because what you are told is not legally binding. What is legally binding is your signature on the Medicaid application which indicates that you agree to the terms of the contract – which brings us to another item in OBRA 1993. Read on.

OBRA 1993 also contains procedural rules intended to ensure that individuals are informed about Medicaid program requirements including disclosure of estate recovery before they complete the application process and also during the annual re-determination process. Notification of estate recovery should be on the signature page of your state’s Medicaid application and is usually a one-liner: I understand that if I am aged 55 or older, (name of your state’s Medicaid plan) may be able to get back money from my estate after I die. (Use of the word ‘may’ doesn’t mean if the state feels like it – it means recovery will take place unless there are specific circumstances for exemption or deferment as mentioned above.) There are also strict recovery/repayment clauses for injury-related settlements disclosed on the signature page and a few other ditties that apply to you or a family member who is enrolled in Medicaid. All of these items must also be disclosed in your state’s Medicaid handbook.
 
Thank you for the correction. Seems it applies mostly to people who are "perminantly institiutionalized".
http://aspe.hhs.gov/daltcp/reports/estaterec.htm

Recoveries may only be made from the estates of deceased recipients who were 55 or older when they received Medicaid benefits or who, regardless of age, were permanently institutionalized. However, states may exempt recipients if their only Medicaid benefit is payment of Medicare cost sharing (i.e., Medicare Part B premiums).

If a state has elected to impose TEFRA liens12 on recipients’ homes, then it must also recover from the estates of those recipients. States may impose liens on property of Medicaid recipients of any age if they are permanent residents of a nursing home or other medical institution, and if they are expected to pay a share of the cost of institutional care.
 
So, perhaps, the best course of action for poor people is to get all assets out of their name and into their children's or other trusted friend/relative prior to turning 55.

But how many poor people will be that educated about things? Probably less than 1%.

I'd still like to read more about this before I completely make up my mind though, there's a LOT of information to try to absorb.
 
Thank you for the correction. Seems it applies mostly to people who are "perminantly institiutionalized".
http://aspe.hhs.gov/daltcp/reports/estaterec.htm

Call me crazy, but I don't trust that "mostly" in your post--I was just reading the same source and it gives two categories:

1. Those who are 55 or older

2. Those who are institutionalized

Exceptions:

States are prohibited from making estate recoveries:

1. During the lifetime of the surviving spouse (no matter where he or she lives).

2. From a surviving child who is under age 21, or is blind or permanently disabled (according to the SSI/Medicaid definition of “disability”), no matter where he or she lives.

3. In the case of the former home of the recipient, when a sibling with an equity interest in the home has lived in the home for at least 1 year immediately before the deceased Medicaid recipient was institutionalized and has lawfully resided in the home continuously since the date of the recipient's admission.

4. In the case of the former home of the recipient, when an adult child has lived in the home for at least 2 years immediately before the deceased Medicaid recipient was institutionalized, has lived there continuously since that time, and can establish to the satisfaction of the State that he or she provided care that may have delayed the recipient’s admission to the nursing home or other medical institution.

I can see how this could get ugly for poor people now that they're more on the radar as revenue sources.
 
A bit more detail: http://www.thelongtermcarespecialist.com/ltcquestions.html

What is estate recovery?
OBRA '93 requires each state to recover the costs of nursing facility and other long-term care services from the estates of Medicaid beneficiaries. This means that states must try to get reimbursed for money they spend through their Medicaid programs. At a minimum, states are required to file claims in probate court against the estates of certain deceased Medicaid beneficiaries.

What exactly is an estate? Under probate laws, an estate is usually defined as all real estate and personal property that passes from a deceased person to an heir through a will or by rules of intestate succession. Property that passes directly to joint owners or to beneficiaries under a trust is normally not considered part of the probate estate. However, OBRA '93 gives states the option to expand the definition of estate to include these types of interests and any other property that the individual has any title or interest in at the time of death.

What is a claim against an estate? A claim against an estate is a demand for payment from a creditor who believes the deceased person owes the creditor money. In estate recovery under OBRA '93, the request comes from the state Medicaid agency, and the amount owed is all or some of the amount of Medicaid payments spent on behalf of the deceased Medicaid beneficiary.

Do states have to recover money from the estates of everyone who recieves Medicaid? No, but states must recover money spent on behalf of the following individuals

individuals who were age 55 or older when they received Medicaid. A state must recover payments made for nursing facility services, home- and community-based services provided under a Medicaid waiver, and related hospital and prescription drug services; and

Individuals in nursing facilities, intermediate care facilities for the mentally retarded, or other medical institutions who pay a share of cost as a condition of receiving Medicaid and who cannot reasonably be expected to be discharged and return home. this provision requires that the state determine, after notice and an opportunity for a hearing, that the individual cannot reasonably be expected to return home.

Can states go beyond these requirements? Yes, states have the option to recovery payments for all other Medicaid services provided under their state Medicaid plan for individuals age 55 and older. These may include services such as home- and community-based care for functionally disabled persons, community-supported living arrangements, optional personal care, and mandatory home health care.

Are there any exceptions to estate recovery? There are limits on a state's right to recover Medicaid benefits. Recovery cannot be made:

before the death of a surviving spouse;
if the individual has a surviving child who is under age 21 or who is blind or permanently disabled; and
against one's home on which the state placed a lien, unless additional protections for siblings and adult children are satisfied.

LIENS

If Medicaid pays for nursing home care, are there any circumstances when the state can take a home before a person's death? No, but under some circumstances the state may place a lien on the home. This can occur if the Medicaid beneficiary pays part of the cost of care as a condition of receiving Medicaid, and the state determines, after notice and an opportunity for a hearing, that the individual cannot reasonably be expected to be discharged and return home.

What is a lien? A lien is a claim against a specific piece of real estate. When the property is sold or title is transferred, the lien must be paid. For nursing home residents, the lien is the amount of Medicaid payments made on behalf of the persons receiving care. This amount builds up the longer a person receives care.

What is the effect of a lien? If a lien exists, the property holder must first pay off the lien before title to the property can be sold or transferred. Often, when property is sold, a lien is paid off from the proceeds of the sale.

How does the state get the lien? The state must file a claim with the county property office (often the Register of Deeds) in the county where the home is located.

Must states use liens? No, OBRA '93 requires the use of estate recovery, but it does not require the use of liens. As of May 31, 1996, 23 states were planning to use liens.

I have heard the state can't put a lien on property if a relative lives in the home. Is that true? It is true under some circumstances while the Medicaid beneficiary is alive. A state Medicaid agency may not place a lien on a home for benefits paid if any of the following relatives live in the home:

a spouse;
a minor child;
a permanently disabled or blind adult child; or
a brother or sister who has been residing in the home for at least one year immediately before the Medicaid beneficiary entered the nursing home.

Can the Medicaid agency place a lien if an adult child, who is not disabled, lives at home? Yes, it can place a lien on the property, but it cannot enforce the lien if the Medicaid beneficiary can prove that the live-in adult son or daughter provided care that allowed the beneficiary to stay out of a nursing home for at least two years immediately before entering a nursing home. then, even after the beneficiary's death, the state cannot enforce the lien as long as the adult child lives in the home.

Under what circumstances is a state not permitted to enforce a lien? A lien may not be enforced, and the house may not be sold to pay for Medicaid benefits under the following circumstances:

there is a living spouse (no matter where he or she lives);
there is a child who is under age 21, or is blind or disabled (no matter where he or she lives);
there is a brother or sister with an equity interest who lived in the home for the year immediately prior to the nursing home admission (but only if the sibling has continuously lived in the home since that date);
there is a non-disabled adult child who had lived in the home at least two years immediately prior to a parent's admission to a nursing home, and was providing care that delayed admission (but only if the adult child has lived continuously in the home since that date).

If family members need to move, what happens? Even if no one lives in the home, the state may not enforce the lien so long as the Medicaid beneficiary has a living spouse, a child under age 21, or an adult blind or disabled child. this means that as long as the spouse is alive, whether or not the spouse has moved to some other residence, the state may not enforce the lien. The spouse may sell the couple's home and use all the money from the sale of the house to purchase another home or pay rent on an apartment, without any lien being enforced.

Does the state ever have to release a lien? Yes, if the Medicaid beneficiary leaves the nursing home and returns home, the state must file a release of lien.

More details at the link if somebody wants to explore them.
 
Other sources I am finding so far refer only to persons in long term care facilities paid for by Medicaid.

Another: http://oregonestateplanning.homestead.com/January_1994.pdf

1. Estate Recovery2
OBRA 93 requires each state to aggressively attempt to recover from
recipients or their estates medical assistance dollars provided for long-term care.
Currently, Oregon's recovery program ranks first in the nation, recovering more
dollars than any other state. Oregon's program has been well managed for years
and has benefitted from a partnership between state government and private
attorneys. Oregon's SDSD intends to implement OBRA 93 estate recovery
provisions after legislative changes in 1995. 3
 
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Your heirs just lost everything they would have inherited. All those poor people that worked all their lives to buy a house just were forced to give the state what they saved for their family. Lots and lots of houses and property are going to be owned by the government and it won't be coming from rich families but honest hard working low income people's families.

Wait, you think you actually, really, truly OWN your house / land, aside from this?
 
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