Obama will REQUIRE community service -- PLEASE DIGG

[Mortikhi]

If you think tuition is high now, just wait until colleges find out that their student body can make $40/hour under Obama's plan.

 

[Expatriate]

Well I vehemently disagree with you. Ron Paul has expressed his support to grassroots initiatives more than once. Hell, this whole movement around Ron Paul is voluntary community service. Grassroots in other words. We are doing our best to make this world a better place, voluntarily. Or are you getting paid to support liberty or god forbid, coerced into posting at this forum? I would be really surprised if that was the case.



You mean it is against the Law for me to pick up garbage and put it into a trashcan if I want the streets to look better? How can a call to voluntary action be unconstitutional as long there is no punishment for not participating? You speak nonsense.

I do not see why voluntary action would be bad for freedom and bad for economy. Your position looks a bit strange (to put it mildly). The whole thing is voluntary. VOLUNTARY. Do you understand the meaning of this word? It means no coercion and no compensation. And if you get $4000 credit for 100 hours of voluntary service, it's actually a job.



This comment is cleary missing the point that the whole thing is VOLUNTARY. Again. Or should I spell it out for you for it to sink in?



I was talking about voluntary action, not taxes. I have no idea what Obama's real plans regarding the taxes are and I seriously doubt that he will (or can) implement his campaign promises.

As a sidenote -- the only way to run public services is either promoting voluntary community work or taxing. Want good highways? Pay taxes or pick up a shovel. Want a good army? Pay taxes or pick up a gun. You can't have the cake and eat it too. Of course, Obama's camp thinks that the public sphere ought to be big. Ron wants the opposite.

You think that "required" means voluntary? Pick up a dictionary. Withholding your high-school diploma unless you do the service is COERCION. I have no idea how he will make college students do 100 hours of service a year but it's safe to say that will require coercion as well.

And how do you not think this will be bad for the economy? Make every high-school and college student do free labor and BING! There goes God-knows-how-many jobs. I live in Ontario which has a requirement of 40 hours of community service in high-school and guess what? There are whole companies that have sprung up that rely completely on low-quality slave-labor of schoolchildren. I don't know how they manage to pass off factory work and private landscaping as "community service" but with the current unemployment rate I can't help but wonder how many jobs would be available if CHILD SLAVES (albeit only transient ones) were not.

I think you must have somehow misunderstood the entire subject of this thread. Do you think we are talking about one of BO's speeches or something? We are talking about this. Pay special attention tho the part where he says "require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year"

 

[eskimoranger]

What if we don't want to pay for it?

Every citizen of UNITED STATES has made a Contract to accept the lawful power of all elected officials. That is what citizenship means, among other things.

So if the contract of citizenship obliges you to pay but you do not want to, then you either violate the contract and face the consequences or renegotiate the terms (write articles, sue the government, elect a better candidate etc). That is how a Republic works.

 

[eskimoranger]

You think that "required" means voluntary? Pick up a dictionary. Withholding your high-school diploma unless you do the service is COERCION. I have no idea how he will make college students do 100 hours of service a year but it's safe to say that will require coercion as well.

Middle school is compulsory anyway. In high school a kid is required to study if he/she wants to have a diploma. Now the student will also be required to do 100 hours of community service a year. It's not like somebody is sending them to Siberia.

And how do you not think this will be bad for the economy? Make every high-school and college student do free labor and BING! There goes God-knows-how-many jobs.

I think people who's jobs are in danger because of high school or college kids, should really look for ways to educate themselves. What the hell could they do better, compared to an experienced adult? Flip burgers faster? The market does not want crap. If the highschoolers do a lousy job, I won't buy anything from them. If you do it better, I buy it from you.

For me, community service does not mean working for a private company in a sweatshop. I think community service is more about public services and taking care of the public sphere, not working in a can factory.

By the way, the highschoolers grow up someday and BING, there goes God-knows-how-many jobs. Is that bad also?

 

[ghengis86]

Every citizen of UNITED STATES has made a Contract to accept the lawful power of all elected officials. That is what citizenship means, among other things.

So if the contract of citizenship obliges you to pay but you do not want to, then you either violate the contract and face the consequences or renegotiate the terms (write articles, sue the government, elect a better candidate etc). That is how a Republic works.

how do i opt out of said contract that I never agreed too? maybe by being born i did...

 

[Expatriate]

Middle school is compulsory anyway. In high school a kid is required to study if he/she wants to have a diploma. Now the student will also be required to do 100 hours of community service a year. It's not like somebody is sending them to Siberia.

That's like me saying "Since I've already broken into your house it won't be much worse if I steal your computer and poison your dog" I think it's called the slippery slope argument. Middle school should NOT be compulsory but just because it is does not mean that it is somehow not a big deal to add more forced labor. That is how America got where it is today. First it was "The income tax will only be 1% and it will only affect the rich" Doesn't look much like that nowadays does it? The trick is to never let the camel's nose into the tent in the first place.

I think people who's jobs are in danger because of high school or college kids, should really look for ways to educate themselves. What the hell could they do better, compared to an experienced adult? Flip burgers faster? The market does not want crap. If the highschoolers do a lousy job, I won't buy anything from them. If you do it better, I buy it from you.

For me, community service does not mean working for a private company in a sweatshop. I think community service is more about public services and taking care of the public sphere, not working in a can factory.

By the way, the highschoolers grow up someday and BING, there goes God-knows-how-many jobs. Is that bad also?

That's pretty judgmental of you. Did it ever occur to you that burger flippers, factory workers and minimum-wage earners are in that position because they can't afford to pay for higher education? Not everyone wants to sign themselves into slavery by taking out a loan.

You say community service doesn't mean working for a private company in a "can factory". Well, in Ontario where I live, that's exactly what it means. There's just some fancy bullshit procedure the companies have to go through to get provincial approval and all of a sudden all the work they do qualifies as community service. There are a lot of companies that operate during the school year that hire almost no actual workers since they have such a supply of schoolchildren. Landscaping, "can factories", warehouses, you name it.

When the highschoolers grow up and move out, they need to support themselves. It will be harder for them to get a job if many of the kids still in school as well as college kids are doing work for free.

 

[eskimoranger]

simple

how do i opt out of said contract that I never agreed too? maybe by being born i did...

Actually you agree to the contract of citizenship when your parents sign your birth certificate (say "thanks mom and dad") or when you apply for your first passport.

If you want to opt out, simply revoke your citizenship of UNITED STATES. However, that implies you get a new citizenship from some other country (say France) because you must to have a verifiable identity (passport). The government will probably kick you out of the country after that but if you are lucky, you can stay and live like an illegal alien.

 

[Danke]

Actually you agree to the contract of citizenship when your parents sign your birth certificate (say "thanks mom and dad")

Great, some more "Patriot" mythology.

 

[eskimoranger]

That's like me saying "Since I've already broken into your house it won't be much worse if I steal your computer and poison your dog" I think it's called the slippery slope argument. Middle school should NOT be compulsory but just because it is does not mean that it is somehow not a big deal to add more forced labor. That is how America got where it is today. First it was "The income tax will only be 1% and it will only affect the rich" Doesn't look much like that nowadays does it? The trick is to never let the camel's nose into the tent in the first place.

But middle school is compulsory and I think it should stay that way (be it public, private or home schooling). I can't remember Ron Paul ever arguing against that.

That's pretty judgmental of you. Did it ever occur to you that burger flippers, factory workers and minimum-wage earners are in that position because they can't afford to pay for higher education? Not everyone wants to sign themselves into slavery by taking out a loan.

I disagree. Success does not imply attending an expensive school. I have never attended an elite school but I have a great job and I am pretty smart too. How did I get here? Dedication and the desire to learn. It was not all sunshine and flowers but it's doable.

That loan and slavery thing does not sound right to me. Slavery means involuntary servitude. Loan is something different -- a person simply asks for money and promises to pay it back. I have loaned money in the past and will do it again if I need to. No slavery so far..

You say community service doesn't mean working for a private company in a "can factory". Well, in Ontario where I live, that's exactly what it means. There's just some fancy bullshit procedure the companies have to go through to get provincial approval and all of a sudden all the work they do qualifies as community service. There are a lot of companies that operate during the school year that hire almost no actual workers since they have such a supply of schoolchildren. Landscaping, "can factories", warehouses, you name it.

When the highschoolers grow up and move out, they need to support themselves. It will be harder for them to get a job if many of the kids still in school as well as college kids are doing work for free.

That certainly changes the perspective. Looks like the government of Ontario needs serious work but that is something only the folks at Ontario can do.

 

[eskimoranger]

Great, some more "Patriot" mythology.

You are not very strong in legal matters, are you? Maybe you might want to put forward your own ideas how one becomes a citizen of a particular state.

 

[torchbearer]

You are not very strong in legal matters, are you? Maybe you might want to put forward your own ideas how one becomes a citizen of a particular state.

Explain to me how I am held to a contract I did not read or sign.
My rights are granted to me by birth by a creator.
How can the state delegate to me my rights?
Wouldn't it then be privileges granted by the state?
And if I have privileges, doesn't that make the state my ruler, and I, its servant?

 

[ghengis86]

Actually you agree to the contract of citizenship when your parents sign your birth certificate (say "thanks mom and dad") or when you apply for your first passport.

if you can write a sentence like that and not see the absurdity of it all, there is no hope.

 

[eskimoranger]

Explain to me how I am held to a contract I did not read or sign.
My rights are granted to me by birth by a creator.
How can the state delegate to me my rights?
Wouldn't it then be privileges granted by the state?
And if I have privileges, doesn't that make the state my ruler, and I, its servant?

Your rights are inalienably yours but if you agree to a contract then the contract is superior because you have free will independent of your creator and the contract is an exercise that free will.

There is no "state" in the same sense a human being is. There are only individuals and contracts (agreements) between them. State is a special kind of contract between people and participants of that contract are called citizens. The state contract causes the government to be and also the actions of it's citizens. Everything you see happening around you because of government is the result of that contract.

That is an entirely different matter whether current state officials violate the terms or not.

 

[torchbearer]

Your rights are inalienably yours but if you agree to a contract then the contract is superior because you have free will independent of your creator and the contract is an exercise that free will.

There is no "state" in the same sense a human being is. There are only individuals and contracts (agreements) between them. State is a special kind of contract between people and participants of that contract are called citizens. The state contract causes the government to be and also the actions of it's citizens. Everything you see happening around you because of government is the result of that contract.

That is an entirely different matter whether current state officials violate the terms or not.

How am I bound to a contract I have not read or signed?
Or agreed to any other form?

I understand contracts. But for the state to force you into a contract because you were born in their territory puts the state above the individual.

 

[eskimoranger]

if you can write a sentence like that and not see the absurdity of it all, there is no hope.

I see no absurdity in the acknowledgement of ones ability to make agreements with other people.

Before you continue to shoot yourself in the leg, take the time to read Law of Contract or something similar. It really helps to make things a bit clearer.

 

[ghengis86]

Your rights are inalienably yours but if you agree to a contract then the contract is superior because you have free will independent of your creator and the contract is an exercise that free will.

one more time; when did i agree to a contract? one that I didn't read, did not sign, did not agree to; wtf?

 

[Expatriate]

But middle school is compulsory and I think it should stay that way (be it public, private or home schooling). I can't remember Ron Paul ever arguing against that.

Just the fact that you think it somehow justifies making kids perform mandatory community service shows why it's bad. I don't recall anything Ron Paul ever said about it, but that doesn't matter. It's the first step in handing over parenting to the government. Not only that, but high-school is a blatant conditioning program performed on young, impressionable minds. For it to be mandatory, when the majority is unwilling to homeschool to government requirements, is a blatant effort to brainwash the next generation of voters.

You can bet homeschooling will be outlawed or made extremely inconvenient soon anyways, since it actually allows parents to control what their kids are being taught. Even so, it requires extraordinary dedication on the part of the parents to provide education and make ends meet at the same time, and it is a testament to the failure of the public school system that so many Americans still home school.

 

[Expatriate]

Didn't Ron Paul want to eliminate the Department of Education? I am pretty sure he's against compulsory education. Anything not in the Constitution should not be done by the federal government.

Government's Role

When Paul is asked to count off the major responsibilities of the federal government should have, he arrives at a surprisingly short list.

"Protect our freedoms. Have a strong national defense. Look and take care of our borders. Have a sound currency. & Protect our environment through private property rights. & That's it," Paul said.

Paul notes that when our country was founded, the role of the government was to protect the general welfare, enforce the rule of law in court, maintain property rights and allow for free markets and free trade "not to run our lives, and run everything in the economy."

It's a habit of politicians to identify problems and try to "fix" them with new laws and bureaucracies.

While some of these reforms may be well-intended, says Paul, "good intentions won't solve our problems," and more often they encroach on the personal liberties that have made our country great.

For example, it is a political consensus that the federal government should be involved in K-12 education and guarantee that no child is left behind, but Paul doesn't believe that government should be in control of our kids' education.

He would abolish the federal Department of Education.

He notes, "Since the 1950s, since the federal government's gotten involved, the quality of education has gone down, the cost has gone up."

By contrast, Paul counters, if we introduce market forces into education, competition will create innovative schools that offer our kids a better education for less money.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1937396/posts

 

[eskimoranger]

How am I bound to a contract I have not read or signed?
Or agreed to any other form?

I understand contracts. But for the state to force you into a contract because you were born in their territory puts the state above the individual.

When you are born, you have no understanding of the world that surrounds you. You have no way of entering into a contract willingly and knowingly. Your mother and father make that choice for you. However, you do not become a citizen of US if your parents do not create a birth certificate for you. Why? Because there is no proof that you were born on the territory of US. Unless someone who witnessed your birth testifies the fact. The law can say what ever it wants but when there is no proof, the law does not apply.

Read the Constitution. That is the contract you "sign" when you become the citizen of UNITED STATES. All the laws and acts that are in line with the Constitution become a part of that contract, automatically. It is your own responsibility to familiarize yourself with the nature of the contract.

If you think something is a violation of that contract and the other party (for example an elected official) does not agree, seek justice in a court of record. Or simply pick up a gun.

The state is above the individual only if the individual has agreed to a contract that makes it so. In the case of a newborn child, the mother and father make the decision.

 

[torchbearer]

When you are born, you have no understanding of the world that surrounds you. You have no way of entering into a contract willingly and knowingly. Your mother and father make that choice for you. However, you do not become a citizen of US if your parents do not create a birth certificate for you. Why? Because there is no proof that you were born on the territory of US. Unless someone who witnessed your birth testifies the fact. The law can say what ever it wants but when there is no proof, the law does not apply.

Read the Constitution. That is the contract you "sign" when you become the citizen of UNITED STATES. All the laws and acts that are in line with the Constitution become a part of that contract, automatically. It is your own responsibility to familiarize yourself with the nature of the contract.

If you think something is a violation of that contract and the other party (for example an elected official) does not agree, seek justice in a court of record. Or simply pick up a gun.

The state is above the individual only if the individual has agreed to a contract that makes it so. In the case of a newborn child, the mother and father make the decision.

I am not a citizen of the U.S. or the federal government. (though McCain is a citizen of the federal government).
I am a citizen of Louisiana.
And am in no way bound to the federal government. Despite what public school civics classes teach these days.