Obama: We Are Not a Christian Nation

[Patriot123]

I simply disagree with you. Does that mean I am right and you are wrong? No.

Um, it does [that you're wrong, that is] when I just disproved everything you said in this topic.

 

[TER]

Off to work so I can't reply right now. Good night and 'talk' to you all tommorrow.

 

[Patriot123]

But we only have our Christian heritage or our Greek heritage to draw from. There was no such thing as a French heritage. The French revolution came about because Jean Rousseau, a person without a formal education, taught himself to read dialogues by Plato. FACT: The reason Western Europe created major Universites after the 13th century was to unravel the mysteries created by the introduction of Aristotle's works during that time. Before the Greek philosophers introduction, all schools in Western Europe were Christian. That is why they referred to that age as "the age of faith."

What are you talking about? What does heritage have to do with anything? Our founders stole the idea of liberty from the French. They didn't have to be of French heritage to 'steal the idea.' That would make no sense. And you're assuming that just because universities were Christian means that the ideas of liberty should be credited to Christianity. Rousseau hated Christianity. He even said that "followers of Jesus would not make good citizens." Shows how "Christian" his ideas really were, right? Voltaire wasn't too 'Christian' either. Christianity was not around during the times of Aristotle. You're trying to find a line between Aristotle and the French which includes Christianity, and there frankly is none. Christianity had no effect. Sure, they may have taught it, but it has nothing to do with Voltaire, Rousseau, etcetera. And if you still don't believe that we stole the idea from the French, look at who Paine was influenced by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine (Right side of page, you should see it) He was influenced by: Voltaire, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, John Locke, Religious Society of Friends, Montesquieu. They're all there. Even Montesquieu. Liberty is not a Christian idea. Look at Jefferson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

"Jefferson's republican political principles were heavily influenced by the Country Party of 18th century British opposition writers. He was influenced by John Locke (particularly relating to the principle of inalienable rights). Historians find few traces of any influence by his French contemporary, Jean-Jacques Rousseau.[31]"

 

[constitutional]

For once, I couldn't agree more with Obama. Funny how the neoconservatives are going after him for saying, "America is not a Christian nation." Honestly, this is really getting me po'd. We are NOT a Christian nation. And to hear morons like Hannity and Savage say that we are is a disgrace. What made this country so great? Why did so many people immigrate to this country? Because America wasn't some quasi religious state bent on making everyone a member of their own religion. It wasn't a nation where you were expected to bow down to another religion. It was a nation where everyone was equal. Where everyone had rights. Not some religious crap nation. Why is it that the terms Christianity, bible, Jesus, Moses, etcetera aren't in the Constitution? Why did none of the founders express that this country was a religious nation? It's disgusting what these neocons are doing to this nation. Moreso than the liberals. We are NOT a religious country.

Do you have a link to this story?

 

[Patriot123]

Do you have a link to this story?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=67735
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmC3IevZiik

At the speech, Obama also seemingly blasted the "Christian Right" for hijacking religion and using it to divide the nation:

I love this guy. He's a socialist, but heck, if it's between him and McCain, there's no competition.

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

Jean Rousseau who had no formal education taught himself by reading Plato.

What are you talking about? What does heritage have to do with anything? Our founders stole the idea of liberty from the French. They didn't have to be of French heritage to 'steal the idea.' That would make no sense. And you're assuming that just because universities were Christian means that the ideas of liberty should be credited to Christianity. Rousseau hated Christianity. He even said that "followers of Jesus would not make good citizens." Shows how "Christian" his ideas really were, right? Voltaire wasn't too 'Christian' either. Christianity was not around during the times of Aristotle. You're trying to find a line between Aristotle and the French which includes Christianity, and there frankly is none. Christianity had no effect. Sure, they may have taught it, but it has nothing to do with Voltaire, Rousseau, etcetera. And if you still don't believe that we stole the idea from the French, look at who Paine was influenced by: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine (Right side of page, you should see it) He was influenced by: Voltaire, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, John Locke, Religious Society of Friends, Montesquieu. They're all there. Even Montesquieu. Liberty is not a Christian idea. Look at Jefferson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson

I can debate you but I can't massively educate you. For the last time. Western Europe was either Christian Schools or advanced Universities built to unravel the mysteries of the philosophers from the Greek Zenith. Specifically Plato and Aristotle. What is that saying?

The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato. I do not mean the systematic scheme of thought which scholars have doubtfully extracted from his writings. I allude to the wealth of general ideas scattered through them...
Alfred North Whitehead, Process and Reality, p. 39 [Free Press, 1979];

Aside from the enormous influence Plato had on the western world, Aristotle established the foundation of modern science.

So, literally speaking, it is either Christian influence or Greek influence. When considering liberty, we didn't inherit such an ideal from the Greeks.

 

[sophocles07]

Look at it from the point of view of what we are not. We aren't a Jewish, Buddhist, atheist or a Hindu nation. Try saying that India isn't a Hindu nation.
I mean, you guys have me laughing right now.

Yes, obviously. That’s because it has no official religion—it is neither “Christian” nor “Buddhist” nation.

I can debate you but I can't massively educate you. For the last time. Western Europe was either Christian Schools or advanced Universities built to unravel the mysteries of the philosophers from the Greek Zenith. Specifically Plato and Aristotle. What is that saying?

The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato. I do not mean the systematic scheme of thought which scholars have doubtfully extracted from his writings. I allude to the wealth of general ideas scattered through them...
Alfred North Whitehead, Process and Reality, p. 39 [Free Press, 1979];

Aside from the enormous influence Plato had on the western world, Aristotle established the foundation of modern science.

So, literally speaking, it is either Christian influence or Green influence. When considering liberty, we didn't inherit such an ideal from the Greeks.

As I’ve said before: you’re forgetting Cicero &co. Pagans. Non-Greek Pagans. Vide: Libertas.

And: show me the origin in Christian Protestant / Puritanism that you are claiming. Specifically.

 

[familydog]

Apparently some people confuse "nation" and "state."

We were not, and still are not a Christian state. That is obvious and is a good thing.

We are and always have been a Christian nation. The majority of founders were Christian. Everybody who participated in the American Revolution should be considered our "founders," not just a few elites at the top. Taking into account all people who helped to defeat the British and support a new country, we can planely see that the majority of our "founders" were indeed Christian. Simply put, a nation refers to a group of people living togather who share similar characteristics, want to be self-governing, and voluntarily partcipate in the nation. So going by this definition, we can see the nation is made up of majority Christians, wanting to be self governing, at the same time voluntarily participating in this nation (whose culture relies on Christianity so much). I don't see any change since the founding, so I'd still Consider this a Christian nation.

 

[sophocles07]

Apparently some people confuse "nation" and "state."

We were not, and still are not a Christian state. That is obvious and is a good thing.

We are and always have been a Christian nation. The majority of founders were Christian. Everybody who participated in the American Revolution should be considered our "founders," not just a few elites at the top. Taking into account all people who helped to defeat the British and support a new country, we can planely see that the majority of our "founders" were indeed Christian. Simply put, a nation refers to a group of people living togather who share similar characteristics, want to be self-governing, and voluntarily partcipate in the nation. So going by this definition, we can see the nation is made up of majority Christians, wanting to be self governing, at the same time voluntarily participating in this nation (whose culture relies on Christianity so much). I don't see any change since the founding, so I'd still Consider this a Christian nation.

Well, I'd be fine with that designation--though I do not think it is what the theocratically-tinged HERE and in the Evangelical movement are claiming, they are claiming much more--as it merely states a mathematical fact.

 

[Patriot123]

I can debate you but I can't massively educate you. For the last time. Western Europe was either Christian Schools or advanced Universities built to unravel the mysteries of the philosophers from the Greek Zenith. Specifically Plato and Aristotle. What is that saying?

The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato. I do not mean the systematic scheme of thought which scholars have doubtfully extracted from his writings. I allude to the wealth of general ideas scattered through them...
Alfred North Whitehead, Process and Reality, p. 39 [Free Press, 1979];

Aside from the enormous influence Plato had on the western world, Aristotle established the foundation of modern science.

So, literally speaking, it is either Christian influence or Greek influence. When considering liberty, we didn't inherit such an ideal from the Greeks.

And I'm telling you that you're trying to find a line between Christianity and the French and it aint' working. It does not matter if Christian universities studied Aristotle and Plato. The before mentioned French minds were not educated in Christian schools. Some might have been, but even then they hated Christianity. Aristotle was not Christian. Why? Because Christianity wasn't around during the time of Aristotle. All you're saying is that just because Christians studied Aristotles ideas makes them Christian ideas. They are NOT Christian ideas.

Do you know why those universities were Christian? Because half the freaking world was Christian. Why? Because if you weren't Christian you were killed. But I'm certain that's a Christian accomplishment too; your numbers, right? [That was to make a point.]

 

[Patriot123]

Apparently some people confuse "nation" and "state."

We were not, and still are not a Christian state. That is obvious and is a good thing.

We are and always have been a Christian nation. The majority of founders were Christian. Everybody who participated in the American Revolution should be considered our "founders," not just a few elites at the top. Taking into account all people who helped to defeat the British and support a new country, we can planely see that the majority of our "founders" were indeed Christian. Simply put, a nation refers to a group of people living togather who share similar characteristics, want to be self-governing, and voluntarily partcipate in the nation. So going by this definition, we can see the nation is made up of majority Christians, wanting to be self governing, at the same time voluntarily participating in this nation (whose culture relies on Christianity so much). I don't see any change since the founding, so I'd still Consider this a Christian nation.

Depends what you mean by nation. If you just mean population wise, then I'll agree with you. But if you mean what we were founded on and such, then absolutely not. Our founders were not Christians. They were Deists. They were men of The Enlightenment, not of the bible. If you do a bit of research, you will see that the founders hated the bible, thought it was evil and corrupted man, etcetera. Note how there are no references to Jesus, the bible, etcetera in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. There are, however, references to nature's god and such. This supports the fact that our founders were Deists. Again, in the Treaty of Tripoli, it even says we are not a Christian nation. [There's a bunch of quotes I posted on page one, if not two] Either way, whether you want to argue that they were or were not Christian, their philosophy was the same, however. That America was not to be a nation loyal to one religion over another. Where all citizens had the right to practice whatever religion they wanted in a society where all religions were accepted, and where everyone had legitimate rights.

 

[garrettwombat]

"the age of reason" by thomas paine(our first founding father)

 

[Uncle Emanuel Watkins]

I figured the Protestant Catholic and the Puritan were common knowledge.

Yes, obviously. That’s because it has no official religion—it is neither “Christian” nor “Buddhist” nation.

Okay. We have no official religion because we have a law that prevents the state from interfering with religion. No state Church. Now if that law happened to protect the state from the influences of religion, so much the better.
However, we have no atheist religion. There is no established atheist history, tradition or heritage. So, we aren't atheist, Arab, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim. We have to be some religion because atheism is just now getting up and going. Hmmm . . . I wonder. What could it be?

As I’ve said before: you’re forgetting Cicero &co. Pagans. Non-Greek Pagans. Vide: Libertas.

And: show me the origin in Christian Protestant / Puritanism that you are claiming. Specifically.

We are certainly influenced by paganism in the United States. I am certain that there were other influences outside of Plato and Aristotle. Still, consider that the foundation for the religion of the Catholic Church was first established by St. Augustine on Plato's philosophy in the 4th century ACE while St. Thomas Aqinas established God's natural laws on Aristotle's works in the 13th century ACE. Challenging the influences of these 2 philosophers would be challenging the Catholic Church itself. Just ask Galileo.
Catholic protestants were the ones who started worshipping the Word of God out of the bible during the time of Martin Luther. Before the common practice was to worship the rituals that the Pope had established as God's authority on earth. The Catholics Christians during that time were not allowed to read the bible in a language other than Latin. Latin was well known to be a very poor interpretation of the New Testament.
Most of my knowledge about the American Puritans was learned in the prerequisite American literature classes that I had to take. The first text book on American literature dealt with American Puritanism beginning with the story about "The Scarlet Letter." Although only the earliest colonists were Puritan, their secular influence had a tremendous effect on the American heritage.

 

[familydog]

Depends what you mean by nation. If you just mean population wise, then I'll agree with you. But if you mean what we were founded on and such, then absolutely not. Our founders were not Christians. They were Deists. They were men of The Enlightenment, not of the bible. If you do a bit of research, you will see that the founders hated the bible, thought it was evil and corrupted man, etcetera. Note how there are no references to Jesus, the bible, etcetera in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. There are, however, references to nature's god and such. This supports the fact that our founders were Deists. Again, in the Treaty of Tripoli, it even says we are not a Christian nation. [There's a bunch of quotes I posted on page one, if not two] Either way, whether you want to argue that they were or were not Christian, their philosophy was the same, however. That America was not to be a nation loyal to one religion over another. Where all citizens had the right to practice whatever religion they wanted in a society where all religions were accepted, and where everyone had legitimate rights.

I challenge your notion of who our founders were. It is elitist to reduce all people outside men at the top to just the "population." The American Revolution would not have happened nor the war would have been won without the help and support of the "population." Surely they should be accounted for as much as Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Hamilton, Adams, etc.

With that said, it can be argued that the "population" were very much Christian. As Christian, they argued Enlightenment ideals as much as men of letters like Jefferson, but the "population" saw those ideals as being Christian. The values of life, liberty, and property, were seen as Protestant in nature. Whether or not they are correct is not relevent. See the book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism by Max Weber for an one of many insights into how the "population" attributed Enlightenment ideals to be Christian. So if you look at the whole, our "founders" were Christian even though certain ones at the top weren't.

Also, this may be getting slightly off topic, but worthy to mention nonetheless. Aristotle is often credited as being the first to suggest a notion of natural law. Natural law became a very important part of the European Enlightenment from Locke to Rosseau. What is important here is the fact that St. Thomas Aquinas was the first to analyze Aristotle's writings and put the modern concept of natural law into it. Therfore, we should attribute the very religious Aquinas as the first to suggest the modern (Enlightenment) notion of natural law. Why this could be relevent is that while the European Enlightenment was a sort of backlash against religion, one of the main pillars of the Enlightenment (natural law) came about because of a very religious person.

 

[[email protected]]

Depends what you mean by nation. If you just mean population wise, then I'll agree with you. But if you mean what we were founded on and such, then absolutely not. Our founders were not Christians. They were Deists. They were men of The Enlightenment, not of the bible. If you do a bit of research, you will see that the founders hated the bible, thought it was evil and corrupted man, etcetera. Note how there are no references to Jesus, the bible, etcetera in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence. There are, however, references to nature's god and such. This supports the fact that our founders were Deists. Again, in the Treaty of Tripoli, it even says we are not a Christian nation. [There's a bunch of quotes I posted on page one, if not two] Either way, whether you want to argue that they were or were not Christian, their philosophy was the same, however. That America was not to be a nation loyal to one religion over another. Where all citizens had the right to practice whatever religion they wanted in a society where all religions were accepted, and where everyone had legitimate rights.

Here is a good article on that:

Little-Known U.S. Document Signed by President Adams Proclaims America's Government Is Secular

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

 

[Alex Libman]

You can't argue with God-slaves. You can only smile, nod, and back away slowly.


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[yongrel]

You can't argue with God-slaves. You can only smile, nod, and back away slowly.

How 'bout you try really, really hard not to be an e-asshole? It'll take some effort, but I promise you that it's worth it.

 

[Alex Libman]

How 'bout you try really, really hard not to be an e-asshole? It'll take some effort, but I promise you that it's worth it.

That's what people said to Socrates and Martin Luther and Thomas Paine and Rosa Parks and even Ron Paul. My answer is also no.

Here I stand. I can do no other. :o


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[Off-topic removed by Moderator]

 

[Patriot123]

I challenge your notion of who our founders were. It is elitist to reduce all people outside men at the top to just the "population." The American Revolution would not have happened nor the war would have been won without the help and support of the "population." Surely they should be accounted for as much as Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Hamilton, Adams, etc.

With that said, it can be argued that the "population" were very much Christian. As Christian, they argued Enlightenment ideals as much as men of letters like Jefferson, but the "population" saw those ideals as being Christian. The values of life, liberty, and property, were seen as Protestant in nature. Whether or not they are correct is not relevent. See the book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism by Max Weber for an one of many insights into how the "population" attributed Enlightenment ideals to be Christian. So if you look at the whole, our "founders" were Christian even though certain ones at the top weren't.

Also, this may be getting slightly off topic, but worthy to mention nonetheless. Aristotle is often credited as being the first to suggest a notion of natural law. Natural law became a very important part of the European Enlightenment from Locke to Rosseau. What is important here is the fact that St. Thomas Aquinas was the first to analyze Aristotle's writings and put the modern concept of natural law into it. Therfore, we should attribute the very religious Aquinas as the first to suggest the modern (Enlightenment) notion of natural law. Why this could be relevent is that while the European Enlightenment was a sort of backlash against religion, one of the main pillars of the Enlightenment (natural law) came about because of a very religious person.

1) Elitist? Don't tell me, you're a conspiracy theorist? Look. Seven percent of the nation belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed. What does that say? Seven percent. I find it hard to believe that Americans were culturally Christian when the US was founded.
2) So then the right to ones life is also a Christian idea, then? And so is the right to free speech? And the right to be secure in your home? Hmmm. That's funny. Because that's often called human nature. See, if you were to kill your buddies friend, well... let's just say it tends to create conflict People learn, and, well... would you look at that? We now have morals. How'd that happen? Must have been religion.
3) Source? Whether that's right or wrong, Aristotle is still responsible for that which influenced said French minds who influenced our founders. Not this guy of yours With that said, I'm not going to debate twenty different things so let's stick to the above two points and not get off topic

 

[yongrel]

That's what people said to Socrates and Martin Luther and Thomas Paine and Rosa Parks and even Ron Paul. My answer is also no.

Here I stand. I can do no other. :o

But you see, the difference between them and you is that they actually contributed something of value.