Nutrition Facts in a free market?

Food labeling adds practilcally nothing to the cost of food but at the same time allows consumers to be able to make informed choices about what to buy and not to buy. If you want an effective free market, consumers must have access to the information they base their choices on. By standardizing the way the numbers are calculated and reported, you make them more easily comparable. They do not tell any producers what the can and cannot use to make their products with (although that may be covered by other laws such as those which prohiblt having harmful substances in them). Food labeling is a benefit to the consumer without being a burden on food producers.

If there was not a national standard then companies would be free to either not provide information or to possibly provide wrong or misleading information. This prevents consumers in a free market from making true and rational decisions about what to buy or not to buy.

If consumers have to sue to get the information, first of all it may not be illegal for the company to provide it (free market- no restrictions) so you would have no basis to initiate a lawsuit. Secondly these cost money and few have the resources or desire to sue a company to find out if their hotdog buns contain any peanut bits in them if say you had a peanut allergy.

I am reminded of a Seinfeld episode. Kramer was going gaga over some fat free yogurt and could not believe it was so rich and creamy and yummy. Since it was fat free, he was eating tons of it. And gaining a lot of weight. If he had the facts of what was in the yogurt, he would not have chosen to buy it. Becaue he thought he was getting something else, his health was negatively effected (the weight gain but for some people the consequences could be worse).
 
But you are transferring responsibility from the producers of the product to the government. Why is that beneficial?


Also, do you think it would be beneficial for a company to refuse to list allergy information? That's crazy!

OMFG, do you listen?

If you buy a pack of Nabisco crackers, Nabisco put that nutritional information on their box. NOT THE GOVERNMENT! The only thing the government did was provide them with a blank box for Nabisco to fill in.

And if you read my post, I clearly explained that Nutritional Information allows people to avoid foods with allergens.
 
Well, yeah I listened.


You said you made jams in the summer and sold them right? And you said the government required you to list allergy information, right?

Was the market demand enough for you to list the allergy information yourself if the intervention didn't exist?

Just curious.
 
Food labeling adds practilcally nothing to the cost of food but at the same time allows consumers to be able to make informed choices about what to buy and not to buy. If you want an effective free market, consumers must have access to the information they base their choices on. By standardizing the way the numbers are calculated and reported, you make them more easily comparable. They do not tell any producers what the can and cannot use to make their products with (although that may be covered by other laws such as those which prohiblt having harmful substances in them). Food labeling is a benefit to the consumer without being a burden on food producers.

If there was not a national standard then companies would be free to either not provide information or to possibly provide wrong or misleading information. This prevents consumers in a free market from making true and rational decisions about what to buy or not to buy.

If consumers have to sue to get the information, first of all it may not be illegal for the company to provide it (free market- no restrictions) so you would have no basis to initiate a lawsuit. Secondly these cost money and few have the resources or desire to sue a company to find out if their hotdog buns contain any peanut bits in them if say you had a peanut allergy.

I am reminded of a Seinfeld episode. Kramer was going gaga over some fat free yogurt and could not believe it was so rich and creamy and yummy. Since it was fat free, he was eating tons of it. And gaining a lot of weight. If he had the facts of what was in the yogurt, he would not have chosen to buy it. Becaue he thought he was getting something else, his health was negatively effected (the weight gain but for some people the consequences could be worse).

Yes! Because the market is totally incapable of making private labels that are accurate and worth listening to and are guaranteed to be safe....yeah, we don't have Kosher approval or anything of that nature......oh .....wait a minute...

:rolleyes:
 
Allergen information is not part of the nutrition label. It's part of the list of ingredients or, in many cases, an additional designation/warning.

There are many products out there that, in addition to listing an ingredient (let's say peanuts) in the ingredients list have an additional sticker or indication that clearly points out there are peanuts in the product. "Sister" products might say they are made in a facility that handles and packages peanuts and peanut products. Take a walk through a grocery store and have a look. Hell, go to your supermarket's bakery. Many big stores are now listing potential allergens on the stickers they apply right there in the store.
 
Food labeling adds practilcally nothing to the cost of food but at the same time allows consumers to be able to make informed choices about what to buy and not to buy.
horseshit

Why not require this:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fruits-and-fruit-juices/1844/2

I purchase many foreign foods. Are the Germans, Swiss, and Italians all dying because their foods do not have the same stupid label. No, they are not. But if they sell it here, slap on a stupid label for the stupid Americans who would eat horse shit unless someone stuck a label on the jar label 'Horseshit, do not eat"
 
Yes! Because the market is totally incapable of making private labels that are accurate and worth listening to and are guaranteed to be safe....yeah, we don't have Kosher approval or anything of that nature......oh .....wait a minute...

:rolleyes:

Exactly. In fact, I didn't even post in this thread, because the concept of higher market demand for well-labeled and well-certified products is just completely ridiculous! ONLY government force can possibly result in labeling, let alone inspection and certification!
 
Has anyone read "In Defense of Food"? My Bro-In-Law is reading it right now and was telling us a bit about it. One of the points in the book is that the lobbying in the food industry is what makes Americans fat and unhealthy. They WANT consumers to look at the proteins and vitamins because its not easily measured by consumers. But a study also proved that all this talk of vitamins and protein is kind of pointless and its whole foods that you should be eating to stay healthy. People who go on diets based on the protein and vitamins were more likely to get diabetes, gain weight, and have heart problems.

The book (Or maybe it was a separate movie he were talking about?) also talks about how corn is sold for less than it takes to produce because of government subsidies. So cows eat corn instead of grass. And because of this E. Coli is about 80% more likely. Grass kills E. Coli where as Corn provides no defenses against it.

Also the soy bean industry is pretty corrupt. And also the meat industry.

In other words. We are no unhealthy BECAUSE of the government. They decide whats healthy and whats not healthy, and we believe them even when studies prove them wrong. But who ever has the most money at the time, whether their study is legitimate or not, gets government backing.
 
...

In other words. We are no unhealthy BECAUSE of the government. They decide whats healthy and whats not healthy, and we believe them even when studies prove them wrong. But who ever has the most money at the time, whether their study is legitimate or not, gets government backing.

I disagree with the premise. The Government is good at being opportunistic, but we're not unhealthy as a nation because of Government. We're unhealthy, overall, because of laziness.

It is not that difficult to realize that unprocessed foods generally have higher nutrient content and more potential than a pack of Snackwells, but it takes more time to prepare your own cookies. Yes, even just making your own damned cookies would tend to make them better for you than popping "diet" cookies. Of course, making your own requires time, knowledge, and patience. By the time you're done making them, you've actually burned some calories, too :p

People generally want the easy way out. It has nothing to do with time, mind you, or taste.

The grocery stores seem quite full of ________ Helper style foods, and other things with "flavor packets" inside. These are convenience foods. These are the foods people are too lazy to think about. How difficult is it to make a cheese sauce? It takes me far less time to do that than the directions on Tuna Helper says it takes to make their "Cheesy Pasta."

Tuna Helper sauce packet:

Corn Starch, Salt, Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and Cottonseed Oil, Whey, Maltodextrin, Dried Cheddar Cheese (Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes), Nonfat Milk, Monosodium Glutamate, Disodium Phosphate, Natural Flavor, Sugar, Wheat Starch, Mono and Diglycerides, Soy Flour, Dextrose, Dried Blue Cheese (Milk, Cheese Cultures, Salt, Enzymes), Citric Acid, Dried Parsley, Yellows 5&6 and Other Color Added, Disodium Guanylate, Disodium Inosinate, Egg.

Cheese sauce made in a saucepan:

Cheese, milk, butter, flour, spices.

The only way I can explain it is laziness, seriously.
 
http://www.lewrockwell.com/grichar/grichar17.html

Abolish the FDA by Jim Grichar


The time has long since come for the Congress to abolish the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, also known as the FDA. Contrary to the baloney put out on the various pages of its web site, which would lead the unwary taxpayer into thinking that the FDA is actually protecting him or her from some hazard, the FDA has outlived any usefulness its partisans and bureaucrats have claimed for it. Getting rid of this bureaucratic dinosaur would save taxpayers nearly $1.7 billion (the proposed fiscal year 2004 budget), lead to reductions in the prices of food and drugs paid by consumers, reduce lawsuits over product liability, and reduce the number of lives lost and lives shortened due to a lack of drugs and medical devices.

What the FDA claims to do

With a history that dates back to 1848 when Congress required the U.S. Customs service to prevent adulterated drugs from entering the United States, Congress has expanded the FDA’s regulatory authority over food and drugs over the years, all in the name of protecting consumers from any risks associated with food, drink, or drug use. Major milestones (or millstones, for taxpayers and consumers) include the Food and Drugs Act and Meat Inspection Act, both of 1906, which gave the FDA’s predecessor agency power to enforce prohibitions on the interstate commerce of misbranded or adulterated food, drinks, and drugs.

While many of the food-related functions have been transferred to the Agriculture Department, the FDA retains considerable authority in this area, notably in dictating food-labeling standards and in dictating the types of claims that can be made by manufacturers of vitamins and mineral supplements.

As far as prescription drugs go, the FDA has been given additional authority over the years. Notably, in 1962, after the sleeping pill thalidomide was found to have caused birth defects in children born in Western Europe, the Congress passed and John F. Kennedy signed into law amendments to federal drug laws that required pharmaceutical manufacturers to prove to the FDA the effectiveness of their products before marketing them in the United States. Despite the apparent Congressional intent of reducing the risk of using pharmaceuticals to zero, unsurprisingly, the FDA has failed to do so. Instead, FDA began the process of dictating standards for clinical drug trials and tests and conducting a lengthy approval process that a manufacturer needed to pass before bringing a new or modified drug to market.

Beginning in 1976, the FDA was given authority to apply a similar "drug-style" approval process to all medical instruments and medical test equipment.

The FDA has failed

This attempt by the government to insure consumers against the risk of using drugs and medical devices has flopped on numerous occasions. First of all, FDA regulations have often prevented U.S. consumers from gaining access to new life-saving drugs. Examples of this include major delays in the marketing of drugs used to treat cancer, blood pressure, heart attacks, cholesterol, and strokes and delays in marketing such high-tech items as cardiac pacemakers and in the use of such techniques as balloon angioplasty for blocked coronary arteries. For many years, the FDA would not allow the makers of aspirin to claim on their product labels that aspirins thinned blood and could thus save one from dying if taken during a heart attack. The costs of FDA regulation of these markets has likely run into the billions, possibly hundreds of billions, of dollars and is composed of higher drug prices, fewer drugs, and more and lengthier illnesses and earlier deaths.

In a call to the Bush Administration to merely reform the FDA, Henry I. Miller, a fellow at the Hoover Institution and the Competitive Enterprise Institute and a former FDA official, presented a devastating critique of the FDA’s regulatory process and procedures.

In his early 2001 editorial commentary, Dr. Miller stated that the total time it takes to develop a new drug had doubled since the 1960's. And the costs to a manufacturer of bringing a single new drug to market had risen to over $400 million, the highest cost in the world. He further contended: "Costs are spiraling out of control because the FDA meddles endlessly in clinical trials and keeps raising the bar for approval." Furthermore, he cited statistics that showed the average number of clinical trials per average drug increased from 30 in the early 1980's to 68 during the 1994–95 period while the average number of patients in clinical trials for each drug more than tripled! As expected, the average time required for clinical trials for a new drug rose from 85 months in the first half of the 1990's to 92 months in the last half of the 1990's.

And FDA approval of a drug has not been a guarantee that one was or is using a safe drug. This latter contention was once again confirmed in a Sunday, May 18, 2003 New York Times article about trial lawyers focusing their efforts on launching mammoth lawsuits against pharmaceutical manufacturers.

Life without the FDA

While many in the medical community like Dr. Miller believe that sensible regulatory reform of the FDA should be the goal, instead the FDA should be abolished.

Some – possibly many – are about to ask me: "Grichar, are you nuts? What makes you, an economist and not a medical expert, think that the drug companies and medical equipment manufacturers can be trusted to regulate themselves!" To which I would respond, "They will not be regulating themselves; the free market will regulate them."

And here is how that could be done. In the absence of the FDA and with trial lawyers looking for multi-billion dollar settlements in lawsuits, pharmaceutical manufacturers and medical equipment manufacturers have every incentive to be cautious in bringing out new drugs and new medical devices. To this end, they would avail themselves of independent private reviews of the results of clinical trials and tests.

Medical experts – the same ones who testify on behalf of and against manufacturers in various product liability lawsuits – would also become involved as independent private review consultants. Most likely, such experts would become affiliated with independent private review institutes – similar in operational philosophy and techniques to the famous Underwriters Laboratories – which would levy a charge for a review of a new drug or medical device. Currently, the FDA takes in about $250 million annually in fees (really taxes) it charges manufacturers for seeking approval of a drug or medical device. Manufacturers have thus demonstrated the willingness and ability to pay for product reviews.

Insurers might also help fund such independent review boards or institutes, as this would help lower their pay-outs in lawsuits. And contrary to what some may think, medical experts would have every incentive – mainly significant future earnings from participating in drug and medical device and procedure reviews from the independent review institutes – not to take bribes from manufacturers. (For a great description and analysis of what of Underwriters Laboratories does, see What Keeps Us Safe by Mark Thornton.)

If given a seal(s) of approval by accepted review institutes, the new drug or device would be brought to market with that seal(s) publicly displayed. Physicians, who often have to spend a fortune for malpractice insurance coverage, would have the strongest incentive to prescribe, in most cases, only those drugs or those devices that have some seal(s) of approval. Their malpractice insurer would demand that. However, physicians would be free to seek an exemption from their insurer and the consumer in cases where application of a new, but not-yet mass marketed or reviewed drug or device, might make the difference between life and permanent disability or death.

Manufacturers would also be given an extra incentive to seek such expert seals of approval for their new drug and medical device products by their insurance companies, mainly in the form of lower premiums for liability insurance if they get a seal(s) of approval. Those not getting recognized approval would face higher liability insurance premiums, possibly suspension of coverage for those particular products, and likely lower demand for such products. Getting a number of seals of approval, from these strictly independent private review institutes, would further enhance the marketability of a product and help insulate the manufacturer from lawsuits.

Under the free market, insurers would also have the incentive to offer consumers no-fault liability insurance for medical malpractice, including the use of drugs and devices that have not gotten a major seal or seals of approval by generally accepted review institutes. And consumers would have a strong incentive to purchase such insurance.

With such a private market system of insurance and risk reduction, there would be fewer lawsuits and lower settlements. This would be the case because of the extensive and competitive review of products, seals of approval, and also review by various insurers. It would be difficult for even the best trial lawyers to counter numerous expert opinions rendered in such an unbiased manner prior to the sale of a specific drug or medical device.

Dump the FDA!!!

To sum it up, a private market for the review of drugs and medical devices could save the public billions of dollars. Not only would the public (including drug and medical device manufacturers) save the $1.7 billion it pays in taxes and fees to fund the FDA, but effective drugs and devices would be brought to the market more rapidly and at a lower cost. More lives would be saved, there would be fewer permanently disabled, and illnesses would be shortened. Lower lawsuit awards and settlements would more than likely compensate for any extra costs of reviews.

Abolish the FDA and save lives and money!
...
 
Well, yeah I listened.


You said you made jams in the summer and sold them right? And you said the government required you to list allergy information, right?

Was the market demand enough for you to list the allergy information yourself if the intervention didn't exist?

Just curious.

rofl, you just proved you don't listen. I didn't say it required allergy information. I am required to list the ingredients.
 
I disagree with the premise. The Government is good at being opportunistic, but we're not unhealthy as a nation because of Government. We're unhealthy, overall, because of laziness.

I agree with you MelissaWV

Take fast food, which many point to a major source of unhealthiness in the U.S.

Just about everybody knows that fast food is unhealthy.

How many people know it's very unhealthy AND eat unhealthy fast food anyway? Just about everybody.

Why? People choose the short-term gain over the long-term cost.

They would rather realize a quick, easy short-term gain of tasty food at that moment when they are hungry with no preparation work at a relatively cheap price.

They ignore the incremental long-term health cost which is relatively small and not as noticeable.

Regarding allergies - it's up to the individual with a medical issue to seek out and eat the correct food for their condition. For example, in nut allergies, a company which specifically says it's products were prepared in non-nut factories.

Should a company be forced by law to cater to every individual's possible health issues - NO. If we required that, then there is no way the label can be made big enough. Think about all the possible health conditions affected by a product (short and long term).

If a person with certain allergies wishes to buy processed food then they will need to buy from a manufacturer who has agreed to prepare and label it for that class of people with allergies, just as people who want kosher need to go with a kosher labeler. (or halal)

If there is a relatively large group of people who require a special type of label then a food processor will benefit from making that label. If not, then a food processor may or may not make a special type of label. If there is little or no cost to add a statement like "this was made at a facility processing nuts" then manufacturers will add it if there is consumer demand for it to be added, just as they will make other changes to their product to make it more preferable to customers.
 
this thread is a primary example of why no one takes the libertarian movement seriously.
 
Is that easier than refuting something that I said?

No, your posts in this thread were one of the few bright spots. I'm referring to the kids who swear to god that the government is invading their rights because of government mandated nutritional labeling. It's a primary example of why no one takes the libertarian movement seriously.

It's kinda hard to open up the public to libertarian beliefs when several people in the movement have such extremist close minded positions and refuse to even acknowledge the facts.
 
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No, your posts in this thread were one of the few bright spots. I'm referring to the kids who swear to god that the government is invading their rights because of government mandated nutritional labeling. It's a primary example of why no one takes the libertarian movement seriously.

It's kinda hard to open up the public to libertarian beliefs when several people in the movement have such extremist close minded positions and refuse to even acknowledge the facts.

The public will probably never be open to truly libertarian ideas, whether major or minor--once something has been ingrained for a generation, people will defend it without really knowing why; primarily because its "always been there" and that is somehow a psychological validation for a lot of people.

Other than that, the market-place does everything better than the government does; why is it illogical to think nutrition is in the same venue? Aside from that, what of the moral implications? Pointing a gun to an individuals head is no way to any society should be governed or run.
 
Other than that, the market-place does everything better than the government does; why is it illogical to think nutrition is in the same venue? Aside from that, what of the moral implications? Pointing a gun to an individuals head is no way to any society should be governed or run.

Not for nothing, but you can't get much in terms of nutritional labeling. Furthermore, the marketplace does perform the nutritional labeling. Like I said, the government provided a blank box for the marketplace to fill in. Anyone that considers a white box that market participants fill in to be some sort of governmental inefficiency ought to get their head checked.
 
Not for nothing, but you can't get much in terms of nutritional labeling. Furthermore, the marketplace does perform the nutritional labeling. Like I said, the government provided a blank box for the marketplace to fill in. Anyone that considers a white box that market participants fill in to be some sort of governmental inefficiency ought to get their head checked.


It "provides the box"? What do you mean by this exactly? It forces the box to be displayed on products/requires it?
 
Don't forget how heavily food is subsidized in our country. Combine that with "free" healthcare and you have a recipe for risky eating.
 
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