Numerical breakdown of the outstanding 2020 votes. (Don't be mad...but I think Biden wins)

[jmdrake]

The notion that freedom is not popular is not random-as-hell. It is evident in how few Republicans actually care about it and the fact Democrats do not care for it at all. Those that endorse freedom are a minority within a minority party. That means, by default, freedom is not popular. Conversely, would you venture the claim freedom is popular? If so, by all means, show me the evidence.

There is a reason Ron Paul ran as a Republican despite the fact there are significant numbers of Republicans that do not care for freedom. It is because he would have fallen completely flat in the Democrat party.

So....you think Trump beat Rand in 2016 because freedom isn't popular, but he also beat Jeb Bush in 2016 because....freedom is popular? Think this through before responding.

 

[jkob]

Oh I forgot. I took a wrong turn and ended up at Trump forums. My bad.



So...we should run the most authoritarian Republican we can huh? That explains Trump's support. Bottom line is....Trump just lost. People can talk about "he was cheated out of winning" (no hard evidence yet of that) or "it's the media's fault" (that's an expected problem) or whatever. But he still lost. Good rally at the end. He beat expectations. But he still lost. Will the "white genocide" crowd go for Rand in 2024 if he doesn't explicitly court their vote? Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see.

You got to play to win the game, there are no consolation prizes. You might look forward to an "education campaign" but I don't think there is going to much left of a country to educate when its all said & done with totalitarian leftist rule.

 

[BSWPaulsen]

So....you think Trump beat Rand in 2016 because freedom isn't popular, but he also beat Jeb Bush in 2016 because....freedom is popular? Think this through before responding.

Sigh.

Republicans come in various flavors. Rand Paul was the freedom flavor and was decisively beaten. I am assuming we can agree on that. Jeb Bush was the neoconservative flavor and was decisively beaten. Trump did not win because he was the freedom candidate (unless viewed axiologically with Democrats) but rather due to his focusing on the contemporaneous concerns of Americans. This was, most specifically, economic security (reduced immigration increases labor value, reduced regulations free up business capital to create jobs, lower taxes). Effectively, Trump was the populist candidate addressing immediate concerns and most people favor immediate gratification over long-term consequences, so he won the Republican nomination. What freedom orientated positions Trump had were those coincidental to running as a Republican, such as supporting the 2nd Amendment.

Now, in contrast to Democrats, this left most of the individuals that value American freedom with Trump as the default choice. However, Democrats are the majority in this country and their numbers will continue to expand as the demographics in this country shift. They are not pro-freedom. They do not care for abstract principles like freedom so much as they care about what government can give them now. There is no "Democrat Freedom Caucus" because they have no use for it.

I have already established that the genuinely pro-freedom people constitute a minority of Republicans*. Even if we include the Republicans that favor some aspects of freedom, they are the minority in this country.

Conclusion: Freedom is not popular.

*Even if every Libertarian joined up to inflate the numbers it does not change this conclusion in even the slightest way. Libertarians are even more statistically irrelevant than Republicans now are.

 

[jmdrake]

Harris is more of a worry then Biden at this point. At least freedom concerning. I do think Trump might have lost because of the bumpfire ban or stock ban as you said. aren't you worried of tech censorship on right wingers or them getting more power? or moderates though? or you think they were just censoring people who supported for Trump? i havent seen this crazy censoring during the Obama admin days.

The censoring is being done by private companies. The idea of "freedom" is that those companies can do whatever the hell they want with their private property including censorship. I disagree with [MENTION=2981]r3volution[/MENTION] in his contention that we shouldn't even be concerned about certain types of censorship by private companies, but I agree that pushing for government regulation of said censorship is not a good idea and will ultimately backfire. This forum can and does censor people. A thread that in no way violated forum rules has been "disappeared" today. (And no I didn't start the thread and I disagreed with the premise of the thread, so I'm not saying this on my behalf). But I don't think RPF should be able to be sued into oblivion just because someone might post something defamatory about Joe Biden or Kamala Harris or some other random person.

As for Trump and the bumpfire stock ban, I don't think that's why he lost. I bring that up because I don't like it and I know a lot of people here don't like it. But I don't think that turned the tide. Trump lost Arizona, IMO, over the feud with John McCain. He lost Michigan, again IMO, over his feud with Justin Amash. Amash, who's parents immigrated from Lebanon, has never liked Trump's immigration rhetoric. In that he is like former GOP congresswoman Mia Love who openly feuded with Trump over his "shythole countries" comment (she is of Haitian descent) and as a result of that feud her red seat flipped blue. In short, Trump's penchant for making enemies that didn't need to be made came back to bite him in some close races. Again, my opinion.

 

[phill4paul]

I think there wont be a Don Jr. 2024 for a while. But looking at the 2020 election America is very much divided. That wont be changing.
Do i think liberals will be coming for your guns? i don't think so. Not without massive riots or protests they wont.

They might not be coming for the guns, but they may ban sales or take on an exorbitant tax on rifles and magazines over 10 rds.

 

[phill4paul]

I think there wont be a Don Jr. 2024 for a while. But looking at the 2020 election America is very much divided. That wont be changing.
Do i think liberals will be coming for your guns? i don't think so. Not without massive riots or protests they wont.

They might not be coming for the guns, but they may ban sales or take on an exorbitant tax on rifles and magazines over 10 rds.

 

[AngryCanadian]

The censoring is being done by private companies. The idea of "freedom" is that those companies can do whatever the hell they want with their private property including censorship. I disagree with [MENTION=2981]r3volution[/MENTION] in his contention that we shouldn't even be concerned about certain types of censorship by private companies, but I agree that pushing for government regulation of said censorship is not a good idea and will ultimately backfire. This forum can and does censor people. A thread that in no way violated forum rules has been "disappeared" today. (And no I didn't start the thread and I disagreed with the premise of the thread, so I'm not saying this on my behalf). But I don't think RPF should be able to be sued into oblivion just because someone might post something defamatory about Joe Biden or Kamala Harris or some other random person.

As for Trump and the bumpfire stock ban, I don't think that's why he lost. I bring that up because I don't like it and I know a lot of people here don't like it. But I don't think that turned the tide. Trump lost Arizona, IMO, over the feud with John McCain. He lost Michigan, again IMO, over his feud with Justin Amash. Amash, who's parents immigrated from Lebanon, has never liked Trump's immigration rhetoric. In that he is like former GOP congresswoman Mia Love who openly feuded with Trump over his "shythole countries" comment (she is of Haitian descent) and as a result of that feud her red seat flipped blue. In short, Trump's penchant for making enemies that didn't need to be made came back to bite him in some close races. Again, my opinion.

You do realize if America goes fully open borders it will bite you guys as usual not right away as it does with Europe just look at Austria. There are some who aren't interested in integration.

 

[phill4paul]

The censoring is being done by private companies. The idea of "freedom" is that those companies can do whatever the hell they want with their private property including censorship. I disagree with [MENTION=2981]r3volution[/MENTION] in his contention that we shouldn't even be concerned about certain types of censorship by private companies, but I agree that pushing for government regulation of said censorship is not a good idea and will ultimately backfire. This forum can and does censor people. A thread that in no way violated forum rules has been "disappeared" today. (And no I didn't start the thread and I disagreed with the premise of the thread, so I'm not saying this on my behalf). But I don't think RPF should be able to be sued into oblivion just because someone might post something defamatory about Joe Biden or Kamala Harris or some other random person.

As for Trump and the bumpfire stock ban, I don't think that's why he lost. I bring that up because I don't like it and I know a lot of people here don't like it. But I don't think that turned the tide. Trump lost Arizona, IMO, over the feud with John McCain. He lost Michigan, again IMO, over his feud with Justin Amash. Amash, who's parents immigrated from Lebanon, has never liked Trump's immigration rhetoric. In that he is like former GOP congresswoman Mia Love who openly feuded with Trump over his "shythole countries" comment (she is of Haitian descent) and as a result of that feud her red seat flipped blue. In short, Trump's penchant for making enemies that didn't need to be made came back to bite him in some close races. Again, my opinion.

Yeah that bump-stock ban had zero to do with anything changing the election. I think perhaps a whole 200 people turned theirs in. Biden made it clear what he is intending to do regarding the 2nd. And it is far, far, outside that what Trump has done or intends.

 

[BSWPaulsen]

Trump lost Arizona, IMO, over the feud with John McCain.

I live in Arizona and talk to a lot of Arizonans.

Nobody cares about McCain other than elite Republican party leadership which numbers too few to matter. That issue is nowhere near enough to create the void seen on election day.

What did cost Trump in Arizona was misinformation regarding Coronavirus and the belief Biden is better for it. What did cost Trump in Arizona was the huge influx of ignorant Californians (and similar) bringing their asinine beliefs with them. What did cost Trump is Spanish media making Biden appear infinitely more competent than he is. There is nothing more fun than watching Biden screw up badly, then watching the translator make him come off as a paragon of topic mastery.

 

[jmdrake]

Sigh.

Republicans come in various flavors. Rand Paul was the freedom flavor and was decisively beaten. I am assuming we can agree on that. Jeb Bush was the neoconservative flavor and was decisively beaten. Trump did not win because he was the freedom candidate (unless viewed axiologically with Democrats) but rather due to his focusing on the contemporaneous concerns of Americans. This was, most specifically, economic security (reduced immigration increases labor value, reduced regulations free up business capital to create jobs, lower taxes). Effectively, Trump was the populist candidate addressing immediate concerns and most people favor immediate gratification over long-term consequences, so he won the Republican nomination. What freedom orientated positions Trump had were those coincidental to running as a Republican, such as supporting the 2nd Amendment.

And the "contemporaneous concerns" of Americans can be addressed through a libertarian lens. Ron Paul could have done that in the general election if he had made it to the general elections. Rand could have as well. And what galvanized republicans around the immigration issue wasn't economics. Trump didn't make an economic argument. He made a "Mexicans are sending rapists and murders and drugs over the border" argument. At the same time he made a pledge to increase immigration through a "big beautiful hole in the wall." (A wall that ultimately became a partially constructed fence). That's where the "white genocide" point that you wrongly think is "random" comes in. I've seen that term thrown around here enough times to know it's a popular sentiment among a segment of Trump supporters.

Now, in contrast to Democrats, this left most of the individuals that value American freedom with Trump as the default choice. However, Democrats are the majority in this country and their numbers will continue to expand as the demographics in this country shift. They are not pro-freedom. They do not care for abstract principles like freedom so much as they care about what government can give them now. There is no "Democrat Freedom Caucus" because they have no use for it.

I have already established that the genuinely pro-freedom people constitute a minority of Republicans*. Even if we include the Republicans that favor some aspects of freedom, they are the minority in this country.

Conclusion: Freedom is not popular.

*Even if every Libertarian joined up to inflate the numbers it does not change this conclusion in even the slightest way. Libertarians are even more statistically irrelevant than Republicans now are.

Asians as a demographic group used to vote majority republican. What happened? Republicans began turning against immigration from Asian countries. People ultimately vote their own interests.

 

[jmdrake]

I live in Arizona and talk to a lot of Arizonans.

Nobody cares about McCain other than elite Republican party leadership which numbers too few to matter. That issue is nowhere near enough to create the void seen on election day.

What did cost Trump in Arizona was misinformation regarding Coronavirus and the belief Biden is better for it. What did cost Trump in Arizona was the huge influx of ignorant Californians (and similar) bringing their asinine beliefs with them. What did cost Trump is Spanish media making Biden appear infinitely more competent than he is. There is nothing more fun than watching Biden screw up badly, then watching the translator make him come off as a paragon of topic mastery.

You mean like Trump ignorantly telling freaking Bob Woodward in an interview "I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down because I don’t want to create a panic." Who the hell told Trump it was okay for him to talk to Bob Woodward at all? Sorry but that is a self inflicted wound.

 

[Slave Mentality]

One silver lining is that maybe some of the Trump supporters around here will miraculously become interested in individual liberty and fiscal responsibility again. That's if Trump doesn't kick off the boogaloo by refusing to step down and half the military supports it.

And another friendly reminder that presidents aren't elected, they are selected. Trump did his job, which was to preside over the greatest wealth transfer in the history of history. Congratulations, "conservatives".

 

[jmdrake]

You do realize if America goes fully open borders it will bite you guys as usual not right away as it does with Europe just look at Austria. There are some who aren't interested in integration.

You do realize that Obama deported more people than Trump right? And Asians absolutely are interested in integration.

 

[BSWPaulsen]

And the "contemporaneous concerns" of Americans can be addressed through a libertarian lens. Ron Paul could have done that in the general election if he had made it to the general elections. Rand could have as well. And what galvanized republicans around the immigration issue wasn't economics. Trump didn't make an economic argument. He made a "Mexicans are sending rapists and murders and drugs over the border" argument. At the same time he made a pledge to increase immigration through a "big beautiful hole in the wall." (A wall that ultimately became a partially constructed fence). That's where the "white genocide" point that you wrongly think is "random" comes in. I've seen that term thrown around here enough times to know it's a popular sentiment among a segment of Trump supporters.

The Libertarian lens is not popular because freedom is not popular. There is a reason Libertarians are confined to permanent irrelevance. The good news for Libertarians is Republicans will be joining them. At some point you need to realize that people know what the Libertarian lens is and they reject it entirely. They also reject it when it is a Libertarian using the Republican party as a vehicle for it.

Your extraordinarily mistaken belief that Rand Paul would have been fine in the general election is baseless. Democrats have no use for him and only Republicans have some use for him. There is a reason he runs as a Republican and you would do well to remember it. He would not have suddenly found droves of supporters among a party that is all about having the government provide everything. Rand Paul would have gotten Republicans, some Independents, and then lost every voter in the country that thinks the government needs to improve their life... which is the majority of the country.

Admittedly, some of the immigration issue was not restricted to economics. People that have dealt with the criminal side of illegal immigration have a very strong distaste for it and can be easily galvanized against it. This is a standard ploy for populists like Trump.

Asians as a demographic group used to vote majority republican. What happened? Republicans began turning against immigration from Asian countries. People ultimately vote their own interests.

Precisely. They vote in their own interests. What can government do for me? is the raison d'etre of the Democrat party and is prominent among some Republicans.

Also, your argument using Asians in that way is hilarious. If they were Republican because Republicans allowed Asian immigration, then they were never Republican for the purpose of freedom, and this reinforces my point that freedom is a minority aspect of the overall Republican party. They were Republican because their most fundamental issue was What can government do for me? and Republicans just so happened to further their cause. Funny how that works. Now, remember how I mentioned that many Republicans are not significantly in favor of freedom. "What can government do for me?" indeed.

 

[BSWPaulsen]

You mean like Trump ignorantly telling freaking Bob Woodward in an interview "I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down because I don’t want to create a panic." Who the hell told Trump it was okay for him to talk to Bob Woodward at all? Sorry but that is a self inflicted wound.

Trump not helping himself is beside the point. Misinformation regarding Coronavirus refers more broadly to the media generated overhyping of its likelihood to kill you.

Many Arizonans I come in contact with genuinely believe they are going to die if they do not use the mask and disinfect themselves religiously with hand sanitizer. Due to how serious they take the issue, they believe Trump should have shut down the entire state. This psychology is perfectly suited for Biden, because, in their mind, all that matters is saving their life and Biden wants shut downs. There is no freedom they will not sell out for the sake of saving their life.

More basically, Arizona has a population hell bent on immediate gratification (staying alive above all else) that cares little for what follows.

 

[dannno]

So....you think Trump beat Rand in 2016 because freedom isn't popular, but he also beat Jeb Bush in 2016 because....freedom is popular? Think this through before responding.

You can be for freedom all day and not get much done.

Remember what Trump is best at. Trump is best at egging on and trolling Democrats to act really poorly and make themselves look bad, and ultimately breaking the law.

Look at all the information we have on the Obama admin and Russiagate. Look at how much the media has discredited themselves. The deep state literally infected the world with a virus that has killed over a million people just to get rid of Trump. Imagine if people found out about that one day.

Trump how has a legal team of literally thousands that are about to descent on the remnants of the election.

With the courts on our side, Trump may be able to make the biggest election fraud bust in world history.

 

[jmdrake]

Trump not helping himself is beside the point. Misinformation regarding Coronavirus refers more broadly to the media generated overhyping of its likelihood to kill you.

Many Arizonans I come in contact with genuinely believe they are going to die if they do not use the mask and disinfect themselves religiously with hand sanitizer. Due to how serious they take the issue, they believe Trump should have shut down the entire state. This psychology is perfectly suited for Biden, because, in their mind, all that matters is saving their life and Biden wants shut downs. There is no freedom they will not sell out for the sake of saving their life.

More basically, Arizona has a population hell bent on immediate gratification (staying alive above all else) that cares little for what follows.

Self preservation and propagation of the species are the prime directives of every biological organism. The idea of closed borders is also based on self preservation over freedom whether the self preservation is economic or ethnic. I guess nobody actually likes freedom, even the people who complain about other people not liking freedom.

 

[jmdrake]

The Libertarian lens is not popular because freedom is not popular. There is a reason Libertarians are confined to permanent irrelevance. The good news for Libertarians is Republicans will be joining them. At some point you need to realize that people know what the Libertarian lens is and they reject it entirely. They also reject it when it is a Libertarian using the Republican party as a vehicle for it.

Your extraordinarily mistaken belief that Rand Paul would have been fine in the general election is baseless. Democrats have no use for him and only Republicans have some use for him. There is a reason he runs as a Republican and you would do well to remember it. He would not have suddenly found droves of supporters among a party that is all about having the government provide everything. Rand Paul would have gotten Republicans, some Independents, and then lost every voter in the country that thinks the government needs to improve their life... which is the majority of the country.

Admittedly, some of the immigration issue was not restricted to economics. People that have dealt with the criminal side of illegal immigration have a very strong distaste for it and can be easily galvanized against it. This is a standard ploy for populists like Trump.



Precisely. They vote in their own interests. What can government do for me? is the raison d'etre of the Democrat party and is prominent among some Republicans.

Also, your argument using Asians in that way is hilarious. If they were Republican because Republicans allowed Asian immigration, then they were never Republican for the purpose of freedom, and this reinforces my point that freedom is a minority aspect of the overall Republican party. They were Republican because their most fundamental issue was What can government do for me? and Republicans just so happened to further their cause. Funny how that works. Now, remember how I mentioned that many Republicans are not significantly in favor of freedom. "What can government do for me?" indeed.

Your argument is self contradictory. In your warped world view simply wanting freedom is wanting the government to "do something for you." I guess if the Pilgrims had been faced with closed borders and voted for the Indian tribes that allowed immigration that would mean they hated freedom.

As for Rand in the general, until it's tried you don't know. Trump pulled together a "white genocide" coalition along with a Tea Party coalition. Rand could have pulled the Tea Party and enough "leftitarians" to make a difference. He was ahead at one point as you seem to forget. But the "white genocide" faction was too strong.

 

[jmdrake]

You can be for freedom all day and not get much done.

Remember what Trump is best at. Trump is best at egging on and trolling Democrats to act really poorly and make themselves look bad, and ultimately breaking the law.

Look at all the information we have on the Obama admin and Russiagate. Look at how much the media has discredited themselves. The deep state literally infected the world with a virus that has killed over a million people just to get rid of Trump. Imagine if people found out about that one day.

Trump how has a legal team of literally thousands that are about to descent on the remnants of the election.

With the courts on our side, Trump may be able to make the biggest election fraud bust in world history.

Russiagate didn't happen until after Trump got elected in 2016 and it didn't help Trump keep a GOP house majority in 2018 or win in 2020. So......non argument from you.

 

[dannno]

Russiagate didn't happen until after Trump got elected in 2016 and it didn't help Trump keep a GOP house majority in 2018 or win in 2020. So......non argument from you.

You seem to have completely missed the point. The first point was that being for freedom doesn't always lead to freedom.

The second point is that the main reason we don't have freedom is because the people who own the media and control everything don't want us to have it, and they are Trump's biggest enemies.

Trump was winning according to Vegas odds and according to PredictIt last night - he isn't now, obviously because of voter fraud.

Trump's best skill is getting the left to act badly and get themselves in trouble. If Trump can take down a significant portion of the establishment for election fraud, and in the process win his second election, that would be boss. Especially because he will then be able to prosecute all of the other previously planned coups against him.