New Paulian, American Israeli, Hi!

[Demigod]

Now, as for occupying, it's a little more subtle than what you say. I don't exactly believe that ANY arab or non-jew who lives in Israel is "occupying" it. I'm happy to have anyone come and visit and live here and make a living and do whatever he wants here. What I have a problem with is, and this is where it gets sticky - is if a nation comes here and says my land belongs to their nation and they want to negotiate my land with me. That's where I draw the line. So in terms of individual liberty, yes, any arab has any right to do anything he wants here as long as he doesn't hurt anyone else. What he doesn't have the right to do is have national aspirations in my land.

Imagine if illegal mexican immigrants organized in your country and gathered in Texas or something and demanded a chunk of it for an independent state. If you're going to tell me that Palestinian Arabs aren't like mexican immigrants because palestinian arabs were "there first and israel conquered the territory" I can just as well say you conquered Texas from Mexico. So it's a moot point.

The land, all of it, belongs to my people, and anyone is welcome as long as they recognize it's mine, not theirs, nationally speaking.

As for holy sites, I dispute your claim that Christians or Muslims have a right to my holy places. Imagine again that America was conquered and the capitol destroyed, God Forbid. Then imagine that you came back to america and got back control, but there were these other people there who in the meantime decided that the site of the destroyed capitol building were holy to them and built something else in its place and claimed that now this was THEIR holy site.

How would you feel as an American? A little weird, insulted maybe?

I'm not saying I'd like to destroy the Mosque or ban christians from visiting the Temple Mount. Everyone has the right to worship God there. But What I am saying is that I want the world to understand that the site is mine, and even if they think it's holy, it's not theirs. Basically, recognize Jewish sovereignty over their land, and I'll recognize individual sovereignty to live in it.

I am not from the USA i am from Europe so i will get in this conversation with a little different view and I will tell you this is your biggest problem,and i think that this is the Arabs biggest problem as well,and not the "occupation" of holy sites cause generally all religions (except for the crusaders) respected the other religions holy sites when they would conquer Jerusalem.


I have no problem with Jews or anything like that but i don`t see how you can claim that Israel is the country of the Jews with so many Arabs in it.I don`t say that you do not own the land cause in my opinion you won it fair and square,the Arabs could cry all they want but they lost the war and that is it.



But you should have either finished the job back then by kicking all of the Arabs from what you thought was your land or prepare to become a mult-iethnic
country.Today you have no choice but to that. Israel must become the country of Israelis no matter whether Jews or Arab by origin and you must complete a very difficult task then of starting to work together.

If not you will just become more isolated which can be seen at the moment.From the old powers only USA supports you while Europe is either neutral or supports the Arabs,China,Russia,Brazil and all others support the Arabs.

You are risking isolation and that combined with the always existing pressure of danger will make Israel crumble.

Also for me personally mentioning the holocaust by Israelis every time something negative is said about Israel is starting to become very boring I can name a number of nationalities who had it much worse than you and no one is speaking about it.

 

[Rafi]

I am not from the USA i am from Europe so i will get in this conversation with a little different view and I will tell you this is your biggest problem,and i think that this is the Arabs biggest problem as well,and not the "occupation" of holy sites cause generally all religions (except for the crusaders) respected the other religions holy sites when they would conquer Jerusalem.


I have no problem with Jews or anything like that but i don`t see how you can claim that Israel is the country of the Jews with so many Arabs in it.I don`t say that you do not own the land cause in my opinion you won it fair and square,the Arabs could cry all they want but they lost the war and that is it.



But you should have either finished the job back then by kicking all of the Arabs from what you thought was your land or prepare to become a mult-iethnic
country.Today you have no choice but to that. Israel must become the country of Israelis no matter whether Jews or Arab by origin and you must complete a very difficult task then of starting to work together.

If not you will just become more isolated which can be seen at the moment.From the old powers only USA supports you while Europe is either neutral or supports the Arabs,China,Russia,Brazil and all others support the Arabs.

You are risking isolation and that combined with the always existing pressure of danger will make Israel crumble.

Also for me personally mentioning the holocaust by Israelis every time something negative is said about Israel is starting to become very boring I can name a number of nationalities who had it much worse than you and no one is speaking about it.

Hi Demigod -

I didn't mention the holocaust. I agree that it's annoying. It's a Jewish issue, not a world issue. It's our memory and our lesson. The world can learn what it wants from the holocaust, but not from us.

And I agree that we should have finished the job a long time ago, annexed everything and call it a day. But we didn't. Now we'll need another chance, because a pure western style democracy is impossible, since Jews cannot assimilate and always remain separate. It's just the way it is. Again, I have no problem with other groups living here, earning money, making a living, raising a family, but only as guests.

And yes, we are becoming more isolated. I understand that. And I invite it. We won't crumble. We're fine on our own. We just have some internal decision to make which we haven't yet made and are still trying to be both western and Jewish. We'll have to pick. Until then, it'll just get worse.

 

[Revolution9]

Now we'll need another chance, because a pure western style democracy is impossible, since Jews cannot assimilate and always remain separate. It's just the way it is. Again, I have no problem with other groups living here, earning money, making a living, raising a family, but only as guests.

And the rest of the world has to put up with this shitty attitude? If the people of Canada or Switzerland or Uganda made this sort of proclamation then the worlds press would fall on their ego tripping heads in a hurry. Why does your tribe deserve a pass? Enlighten me. I am a confused gentile.

Rev9

 

[Athan]

Welcome brother of Liberty!

 

[Begood]

And the rest of the world has to put up with this shitty attitude? If the people of Canada or Switzerland or Uganda made this sort of proclamation then the worlds press would fall on their ego tripping heads in a hurry. Why does your tribe deserve a pass? Enlighten me. I am a confused gentile.

Rev9

I don't think that it is the place to discuss the topic.. Never forget that the priority number one is getting Ron Paul elected. And we have a great opportunity to share his message with a lot of anti Paul, pro israel americans thru our new friend Rafi. Don't scare away one of the only israeli who really understand the message of Liberty.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Kotin]

Welcome to the forum!!!

 

[Rafi]

I don't think that it is the place to discuss the topic.. Never forget that the priority number one is getting Ron Paul elected. And we have a great opportunity to share his message with a lot of anti Paul, pro israel americans thru our new friend Rafi. Don't scare away one of the only israeli who really understand the message of Liberty.

Just my 2 cents

Hehe...I love you guys. I'm not going to be scared away. When I see truth I stick to it. You're right - this is not the place to discuss this. but you should know that I'm not the only Israeli that understands liberty. There are many others, though not so many with voting rights in the US!

On the liberty topic, there is a Rabbinical saying that plays off a verse of the Torah (5 books of moses). The verse says that Moses came down with the Word of God "carved' into the stone (the 10 commandments). The word "carved" is spelled ח-ר-ו-ת pronounced Harut. The rabbis say the verse should be read not Harut, but Herut, which is the hebrew word for Liberty.

Liberty carved into the ten commandments, the Constitution for humanity. I'm not going anywhere. Liberty is the second most powerful thing in the universe, besides God Himself, because it allows us to be like God in making free choices with our lives. But it's also the most frightening thing in the world besides God, because it means we are truly responsible for the choices we make. That's why the "sheeple" fear liberty so much.