New Hampshire ISN'T the most libertarian, Austin, Texas is.

[FSP-Rebel]

As has been discussed on this forum, all too many times, NH is not the free/Libertarian state some choose to paint it. It was co-opted by Massholes and RINOs a long time ago. NH is so far down on the list it is not even worth discussing where it places...

There are those on this forum who will continue to beat the drum on NH in the face of the facts/reality. They have their own agenda for doing this...

While it has been attempted by those with a hardon for NH and the FSPers who are attempting to do something productive, it has never been finalized that NH isn't the most libertarian state. Key word is most. There is no such thing as a pure libertarian state, such would be an oxymoron. Next, I'd like to take a look at the so-called facts that have been cited regarding NH ranking so low in economic conservatism. Can you explain to me how a state with no income or general sales tax can rank as low as has been offered? I'd expect that lack of understanding from a left winger, not someone on this forum. On the other hand, I have provided a study with all the stats needed to prove my point. I'll just assume that some still haven't taken a look at it.

Not to say that there haven't been people that move from Mass to NH, but reports show that the majority of those movers tend to be more conservative. Most of them settle in south central and southeast NH. If you look up the state reps from that southern strip, you'll find that the vast majority of them are republicans, many of which are libertarian leaning. Besides, NH has extremely chilled gun laws, no mandatory car insurance, and no seat belt nor helmet laws.

I don't go around actively disparaging anyone wanting to move to where ever they want but there's nothing wrong with laying out the facts and letting people to decide where the best places to live are from a liberty perspective. Yet, whenever this type of discussion comes up, it's the same old tactics and talking points being spewed in the face of clear evidence indicating otherwise. Just the way the thread is titled shows the offensive (read: offense) theme to this thread. The libertarianism of a state can't merely be judged by a meetup group or donations to Ron Paul. Heck, the man even announced his campaign from the NH liberty forum back in '07 over and above endorsing the FSP.

Lastly, the FSP as an entity doesn't endorse candidates nor particular forms of activism. The statement of intent on the website speaks for itself and you don't have to be an anarchist to be a part of it. They just tend to be more visible in creating controversy. The political side operates in a more subdued manner. And as I've mentioned in other threads, as of this last election, over 30% of the state reps are libertarian-republicans and the state senate has seen a major improvement as well. I just wonder what the average percentage of l-republican reps are in other states.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

As has been discussed on this forum, all too many times, NH is not the free/Libertarian state some choose to paint it. It was co-opted by Massholes and RINOs a long time ago. NH is so far down on the list it is not even worth discussing where it places...

Lets discuss some fine points about the Libertarian state:

1. All Alcohol sales are controlled by the state. You want a bottle of Jack Daniels? You have to buy it from the state. (anti-free market)
2. High gas taxes, high cigarette taxes, high lodging taxes, etc. (anti-driving, anti-smoking, anti-tourism)
3. Some of the absolute highest taxes on real estate in the country (anti-land ownership)
4. The absence of a sales tax. This at first seems great... until you realize where they are getting taxes from... by milking anyone who is stupid enough to buy property in the state.
5. They tax the shit out of interest income (anti-savings)
6. Drug Laws - Welcome to the home of the Puritans.

They are pro-gun, but so are the other ~40 other pro-gun states in the union.



There are those on this forum who will continue to beat the drum on NH in the face of the facts/reality. They have their own agenda for doing this...

Can you name me one other state which has no sales tax and no income tax? Can you name me one other state which has no laws against knives? Can you name me one other state which has no seat belt laws? Can you name me one other state which allows anyone to CCW and open carry in the legislature of the state?

Sorry, but the fact is that New Hampshire is the most libertarian state. It'll be much freer in the coming years also, especially as more and more libertarians move there. The only state that comes near New Hampshire would be Montana and possibly Wyoming. Texas & Arizona are statist hell-holes (Arizona though is great on gun ownership).

 

[jclay2]

Could it be all those Alex Jones fans in Austin?

You know, those nuts and weirdos that should STFU and GTFO of the movement because we're fucking it up for everybody else.

Probably the conspiracy nuts !

 

[daviddee]

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[Sentient Void]

Hey, daviddee - I'm a 'Masshole'! I resent that! ;-)

I signed the FSP pledge to move to NH and get involved in state policy to move NH to a mOre libertarian direction (and while it's no libertarian 'state', it's better than all others in the US pretty much). I'll probably be moving to Nashua or somewhere around there - southeastern or south central NH.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Yemen, but it does not mean I would want to live there.

As was stated in my post, the sales tax and property tax are red herrings as they soak you in so many other ways to get that cash... Additionally, there is an income tax. For those of us that derive a large part of our income from interest and dividends... NH sucks. 5% income tax on interest and dividends. Add to this an 8.5% tax rate on corporate income.

Look, I used to live there... It was by far one of the most expensive states I lived in... After Massachusetts. Imagine paying $15000 a year in property taxes + $5000 in income taxes + $9000 in Corporate taxes + Federal Taxes.

If you are broke, like living in trailers, in the middle of no where (on squatted land) it might be a great place for you, but then again any state would be great as long as you have a tent.

Well I certainly do not make over 200,000$ like you do, nor do I own a business. With that said, my overall tax burden (and I make above median) when I move to NH is going to be significantly lower than it is now (and I am a Florida resident which has no income tax). I have also heard the new legislature is working to reduce and eliminate as much of that as possible.

As another poster mentioned, New Hampshire has the second lowest tax burden of all the states. Anyways, I will take my chances among the most heavily libertarian populaces in the country with an elected legislature which actually has a Natural Law caucus filled with libertarian activists, than I will in any other state. Plus, I'll get to mooch off Anti-Federalist

PS: You should know that property taxes vary from city to city as it is a local issue. Perhaps you should have moved to a town with a much lower property tax? With having said all that, no state in this country is even near libertarian, but New Hampshire is much closer and is heading more in that direction than pretty much any other state. There is lots of work to be done everywhere. Hell, I would be lucky to meet five libertarians back in my hometown in St. Petersburg.

To people coming from Socialist shit holes it seems like Valhalla, but for those of us who are not from Socialist shitholes... it was just another state next to Socialist shitholes that seemed cool because of trinket bullshit reasons (Ohh, they allow fireworks (Like most other states)- Mass Doesn't. They allow Guns (like most of the other states) - Mass Doesn't. They don't require helmets (Like most other states)- Ohh Mass doesn't). So from a Massachusetts, NY, NJ, Cali, etc world view it looks great.

Well I reign from Florida, and guess what, every state in this country is socialist! Many other states are not shall issue CCW, and soon NH will be changing to VT, AZ, MT style CCW (that is, no permit needed). Anyways, NH is one of the only states which doesn't require mandatory car insurance, so that will be saving me 140$ a month (that I can put further into investments instead of the rip off that is car liability insurance). To be quite honest, the reason New Hampshire will ultimately win out over every other state is because it is a designated geographical libertarian 'mecca'. Which means more libertarians, and that means moving in a more libertarian direction. This no other state has, except for Wyoming, but that is quite small at this moment. Just curious, where do you live now that isn't socialist, so I can come live there?

 

[Sentient Void]

Yemen, but it does not mean I would want to live there.

As was stated in my post, the sales tax and income tax are red herrings as they soak you in so many other ways to get that cash... Additionally, there is an income tax. For those of us that derive a large part of our income from interest and dividends... NH sucks. 5% income tax on interest and dividends. Add to this an 8.5% tax rate on corporate income.

Look, I used to live there... It was by far one of the most expensive states I lived in... After Massachusetts. Imagine paying $15000 a year in property taxes + $5000 in income taxes + $9000 in Corporate taxes + Federal Taxes.

If you are broke, like living in trailers, in the middle of no where (on squatted land) it might be a great place for you, but then again any state would be great as long as you have a tent.

To people coming from Socialist shit holes it seems like Valhalla, but for those of us who are not from Socialist shitholes... it was just another state next to Socialist shitholes that seemed cool because of trinket bullshit reasons (Ohh, they allow fireworks (Like most other states)- Mass Doesn't. They allow Guns (like most of the other states) - Mass Doesn't. They don't require helmets (Like most other states)- Ohh Mass doesn't). So from a Massachusetts, NY, NJ, Cali, etc world view it looks great.

Hrmmmm... Touché?

What would you suggest? Still seems to me that the overall tax burden is much lower than almost anywhere else.

 

[Sentient Void]

Yeah I don't own a business nor get anything in dividends. For now. But like AED said, that's going to be worked on.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Hey, daviddee - I'm a 'Masshole'! I resent that! ;-)

I signed the FSP pledge to move to NH and get involved in state policy to move NH to a mOre libertarian direction (and while it's no libertarian 'state', it's better than all others in the US pretty much). I'll probably be moving to Nashua or somewhere around there - southeastern or south central NH.

When are you moving? I'll probably move near Durham since I'll probably be going to UNH (though certainly can change).

 

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Hell, I would be lucky to meet five libertarians back in my hometown in St. Petersburg.

Ah, Pinellas County, the only local government run as a Communist 'paradise'. Sadly, Tampa isn't far behind now (and Temple Terrace is fucking insane). I resent the fact I'm forced to carry auto insurance just to be able to drive. Because, certainly, that doesn't inflate prices at all. [/sarcasm]

 

[daviddee]

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[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Ah, Pinellas County, the only local government run as a Communist 'paradise'. Sadly, Tampa isn't far behind now (and Temple Terrace is fucking insane). I resent the fact I'm forced to carry auto insurance just to be able to drive. Because, certainly, that doesn't inflate prices at all. [/sarcasm]

Hey BRL, aren't you moving to NH also? I am wondering if some of us younger RPF'ers who are moving to NH would think about becoming roommates or something to off-set costs. I mean, most people get weirded out from my armory, but I'd imagine it would be kosher living with libertarians

Oh, and yes, Pinellas County is the pits. One of the only good things I can say is that they voted against increasing taxes to pay for a new stadium for the Rays. Hooo-ray!

Oh yeah, the only other good thing in the area is the big 30 foot Battle-Flag when you head into Plant City. ::lol::

Lastly, since you are coming from Massachusetts the real estate prices in NH will not a be a shock to you, but I will tell you that if you can free yourself of the North East your life will be much easier. The tax burden, cost of living, etc etc. are simply not worth it. Plus you will free yourself of the "Hub of the Universe" mindset that has lingered since the late 1600's... that Massachusetts and surrounding colonies are where its at.

While the cost of living may be lower in other parts of the country, you also get paid much less, not to mention most states are much more socialist and authoritarian than New Hampshire. Mileage may vary, but as a Southerner I can tell you that the South is just as bad as many of the NE States. Similarly, the Mid West might be even worse. IL, WI, MI, all horrible. Take it from someone who has lived in the South, and Midwest. NH sounds much better.

 

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Hey BRL, aren't you moving to NH also?

That's the intention by 2013. Likely won't be able to move until next fall at the earliest. I'm broke at the moment, but I'm likely going to fix up my Buick to sell and try to get a dirt cheap used Class C Camper or Fleet Van to fix up to live in (cause I forsee lot of jobless days ahead in my future unless something changes). Being homeless in Temple Terrace sucked as some fucking douchebag called the cops on me for sleeping in my car in a parking lot.

 

[FSP-Rebel]

If you are moving from Mass and don't have a business and don't earn interest or dividends. Then you will be okay, just don't buy a house. You will have the high property taxes pushed back on you via higher rents, but the pain is not as obvious as getting the yearly tax bill and having to pay it. The property taxes were so high that one of my neighbors, like clock work, would get a personal loan every year when the property tax bill came. Would pay it off in 6 months and then wait for the next bill to come.

Your post, and most of the other posts in this thread, illustrate a very valuable point... Not all situations are the same. This is why the "Lowest Tax Burden" charts are useless unless you use your own data. NH was deadly expensive to my existence, but looking at the chart it should have been heaven.

Lastly, since you are coming from Massachusetts the real estate prices in NH will not a be a shock to you, but I will tell you that if you can free yourself of the North East your life will be much easier. The tax burden, cost of living, etc etc. are simply not worth it. Plus you will free yourself of the "Hub of the Universe" mindset that has lingered since the late 1600's... that Massachusetts and surrounding colonies are where its at.

Now, I see your personal disagreement. Property taxes are higher but they fluctuate via the varying towns, see Seabrook for example as it's lower than most. Regarding hefty real estate, NH does have some prized land and it will likely cost ya. Though, working with the state and local budgets can bring things down if you're an activist. I know what you mean about the dividend tax, but taking care of that has more sway now in the legislature than ever before. Since you came from NH, there's not much I can say to you to alleviate your experience. But I also understand why you have a passion against it. Many people that live in oppressive states would love to live in NH for its low tax burden, among other things. I'm glad that things are well for you where you are, but others are looking for a step up. Perhaps you saw NH going in the wrong direction in the past when you lived there, but now it's going back towards the liberty side. That's all I was trying to point out.

 

[Andrew-Austin]

I'm from Austin, politically speaking Austin wants to be the new San Francisco.

New Hampshire just seems to have more going on, that is why I'm considering moving. Austin is a liberal city surrounding by (like Anti-Fed said) cop loving - Bush loving neocons. But maybe I'm just too much of a hermit to see all this 'libertarianism'.

A bizarre thing I keep finding on these forums is the rabid insistence by some people that New Hampshire somehow is the most libertarian place. I can 100% decisively say that it isn't - not even close. I have examined FEC donations to Ron Paul and Austin, TX with a population of about 1.5 million in the metro came in at over $500,000 - NH with a population of 1.3 million came in at $228,000. Austin, TX ranks #1 on Google trends for the search terms, Ron Paul, libertarian and Ayn Rand.
NH doesn't even rank in the top 10. Austin also had the largest RP meetup group in the 2008 election, again NH doesn't even rank.

Those don't seem like very good criterion in judging how libertarian a place is.

Furthermore, in a ranking of states by economic conservatism Texas ranked #7. NH ranks #42 - towards the end of the list with all the other big government liberal New England states where it belongs.

Yeah, Texas is ranked #7, not Austin.

 

[Justinjj1]

I'm from Austin, politically speaking Austin wants to be the new San Francisco.

Exactly, I'm from Texas as well, and Austin is referred to as the San Francisco of Texas. It is an anomoly and not at all characteristic of Texas as a whole. But, I will say that Austin is better than 90% of the rest of Texas. I would rather live with hippie, liberal, pinkos, than a bunch of bible-thumping, George W- loving, neo-cons.

 

[Andrew-Austin]

Exactly, I'm from Texas as well, and Austin is referred to as the San Francisco of Texas. It is an anomoly and not at all characteristic of Texas as a whole. But, I will say that Austin is better than 90% of the rest of Texas. I would rather live with hippie, liberal, pinkos, than a bunch of bible-thumping, George W- loving, neo-cons.

I agree. I mean if I started criticizing the run of the mill neocon population, I'm sure a lot of that criticism would end up applying to liberals as well, but they are just somehow a more relatable bunch to me than neocons, if not by much.

 

[QueenB4Liberty]

Austin is liberal, not libertarian. When we lived there, you could get a ticket for riding your bike with no helmet, but it was ok to ride your motorcycle without one. They were pretty far ahead of the curve when it came to banning cigarette smoking on private property, too.

I've seen Ron Paul bumper stickers. There are lots of libertarians here. I even wore my campaign for liberty t-shirt to breakfast this morning. lol

 

[daviddee]

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[Sentient Void]

I plan on moving within 2-3 years with my gf and buying a house.