Need some moral support fellow RPers

[bunklocoempire]

So there was a heated debate in this class political science class im in regarding the Minimum wage. I was making the argument that it creates unemployment. Youve all probably heard the arguments before the standard, "Why Stop at 9? Why not make it 50? 100?" etc etc. This one marxists asshole in the corner of the room kept interrupting me calling me an idiot etc etc. Then I started debating with him. He then went on a 15 minute tirade about how Republicans first instituted minimum wage in the 50's and other irrelevant bullshit and how wed all be making 3 dollars at McDonalds. I told him I wasnt a Republican so why does that matter and that no one would work for those wages and if they did it must mean it was there best option etc etc. Finally when I thought this guy couldnt get any stupider he started to argue that Businesses dont factor in labour costs when they hire people, so minimum wage is irrelevant.

This is not only the kind of brainwashing we are up against but we are up against a real scary level of shear stupidity. I think I won over a few in the class but this kind of stupidity is scary...very very scary.

Anyway can you all post here and tell me I was right he was wrong cause my feelings where kinda hurt.

kthxbye

You did great gwax23, hang in there.

Business owner here -small time and voluntarily transferring ownership of my business. The wage government requires me to pay an employee and what my business can actually afford to pay are incompatible. Those skilled for "minimum wage" work need not apply -I can't quite afford you.

My wife is also a business owner on a much larger scale having to pay (wanting to pay) her skilled workers well above minimum wage. Her business is heavily influenced by tax law and government hoops placed on others -go figure. Minimum wage qualified workers need not apply. Her skilled workers are needed to make her business run, while a "minimum wage" worker for her would be VERY useful but she can't afford to take one on.

If you're an unskilled worker looking for work the term "minimum wage" is a nice word for employment obstacle. If you're a business owner trying to reach that next rung of success the term "minimum wage" is simply an unnatural obstacle placed by there by government preventing a mutually beneficial relationship between an employer and an employee.

Now add to that mess the burden government places on employers concerning HOW they have to pay the wages they pay. In other words the wage that the employee gets vs what it costs an employer to actually pay that wage is way out of line. Cuts a LOT of small time entrepreneurs right out of the game therefore destroying jobs.

Natural voluntary and mutually beneficial relationships are where it's at -NOT force from a third party pretending to help one or the other.

 

[Danan]

 

[Zippyjuan]

Yeah you find quacks on the "give them more money, and we all benefit" side.

There is no controlled case for economic theory, so sometimes it is hard to look at history or at least there can be a lot of spin. So you need logic. Trying to increase consumption through price controls of labor is just dumb. I can not take anyone seriously who takes that position.

The benefits of any stimulus- whether that is a tax cut or the Fed buying securities or raising the minimum wage- is temporary and fleeting. The market makes adjustments to it. If you want to keep the stimulus going you need to exponentially keep increasing the stimulus which is impossible over any significant time frame.

 

[The Free Hornet]

Anyway can you all post here and tell me I was right he was wrong cause my feelings where kinda hurt.

kthxbye

A couple more points you can make

1) The least you can pay somebody is ZERO and the price controls only increase the probability of such.

2) The minimum wage is a restriction on the least capable workers to keep their product - their labor - off the market. It is anti-trust so that young, inexperienced and unconnected workers do not compete with the more established and often unionized labor forces.

3) To repeat, the restriction on businesses is secondary as they have far more flexibility (relocate, import, automate, layoffs). The person in the city with nothing has fewer legal work options.

4) Small-time drug dealers are said to make less than minimum wage, so the market of willing participants does exist for any low-paying job that won't get you killed or thrown in jail.

5) The minimum wage and other wage mandates or regulations (SS/medicare tax, mandatory insurance, regulatory compliance, risk of wrongful termination lawsuits) actually define how productive a person must be to make their employment worthwhile. I.e., it is the government saying to the wage serf, you must NOW make 10 widgets/hour - not 7 - or your ass is fired. How does the person with no education, no experience, and no connections do this? Largely, they don't which is exactly how your old Marxist school chum wants it.

 

[enjerth]

3) To repeat, the restriction on businesses is secondary as they have far more flexibility (relocate, import, automate, layoffs). The person in the city with nothing has fewer legal work options.

I've been discussing this at length with my wife, who's from Indonesia.

In Indonesia, you are FREE(!!!) to cook food in the morning (or at any time) and sell it on the streets (or just about anywhere) to make a buck if you can't make bank. You don't have to ask a lawyer, or even fill out any forms.

Forms? What's wrong with that? Maybe you should ask a lawyer.

Depending on the form, if you make a mistake, you're asking them to catch you and, depending on the severity of the mistake, it may mean jail time. Or worse. The right to not incriminate yourself is basically forfeit when you fill out government forms.

In Indonesia, the major limit to your freedom to prosper is your imagination and the strength of your hands. Here, I have to basically resign myself to losing my house if I can't find and keep gainful employment from someone who has already figured out how to get through the mess of laws and bureaucracy.

Or become a criminal, whether or not I recognize my criminal actions.