Need some advice on handling an unreasonable search

[SL89]

I stopped reading at "my kids are in public school." Never ceases to amaze me that people in the liberty movement send their kids to be with the government all day.

I always question our choice to let the kids go to public school here. But, when your teenager is doing college level classes and is admired for his Liberty convictions by the staff. (not all of the teachers agree. but, they embrace free thinkers), it reaffirms the choice. Today, he had his expensive suit on and went to the State capital speaking on the Bill of Rights as part of his government class.

As for my 2nd son... he chose to home school and we embrace that as well. and he is doing just as well as the aforementioned. And the 2 behind them are doing as well.

Sorry for the small hijack. I just think we found a decent place to resist federal tyranny and grow........

 

[JK/SEA]

hand out fliers to parents picking up their kid. Try and form a posse. You might get just one willing to lend a voice with you, but its worth a shot. Stay on the sidewalk.

 

[leslymill]

I would seriously look into other schools in the area, public or private. The behavior is bazaar to say the least.

 

[squarepusher]

I recently moved my family to a new city and enrolled my daughters in public school. My younger daughter had her cell phone confiscated during a random search today and the school is demanding a $15 fee, otherwise they will not return the phone to us. The phone was never seen or heard by anyone before it was confiscated. Here are the circumstances:

• During the last class period of the day, someone entered my daughters classroom. All the students groaned, some muttered "not again".
• The person told all of the students to get out their phones. My daughter said her phone is in her backpack, the officer told her to get it out.
• The person inspected each phone, then confiscated my daughter's because "it was on".
• All the students were then told to open their backpacks, empty their pockets, and leave all of their belongings at their desk. They were led to the hall.
• Another person entered the classroom with a dog. All of the students' belongings were presumably searched by this person/dog.
• The students were then given the "all clear" to re-enter the classroom.
• When my wife arrived to pick up my daughter, she was told we owed $15 and they would not release the phone unless she paid. She did not pay.

I see this as a clear violation of the fourth amendment. Not only was there no probable cause for the search, there was not even a reasonable suspicion. It was simply a random search of an entire classroom, which apparently is fairly common at this school based on the way the students reacted. The school handbook says that the school has the right to search outer clothing and belongings if reasonable suspicion exists, and goes on to say that random locker searches may occur. This was not a locker search, nor was it a search of belongings due to reasonable suspicion. The handbook does say that phones should be off during school hours, and my daughter's phone was on, but she never used the phone during the day, nor was it ever heard. Our last school had a rule that phones were okay as long as they were never seen or heard, which is what we were used to.

What I plan to do:
I will NOT be paying the school $15. I plan to call the school tomorrow and request an appointment with the principal. I plan to bring a formal letter with my complaint, requesting they waive the fee and return the phone, and also requesting they immediately stop this unconstitutional practice. My next step would be to contact the administrator of the school district in writing. After this, I am at a loss of what to do next. I am considering contacting an attorney or the ACLU. Any advice would be appreciated.

Why don't you ask the principal on what grounds that he searched your daughters bag?
reason people hate cops these days, is they are just tools to fee you to death, traffic tickets, parking violations, etc... They don't fight crime or protect anyone, they just are there to screw you, the citizen.

I'm sure they were acting on some sort of policy to search the bags and the officer didn't act on his own. Find out what justified their search.

 

[Paul Fan]

Does the handbook say that phones will be confiscated if they are on? Does it talk about 'penalties' for violating the handbook rules? Does it specifically mention the $15 fee, or any monetary fine or administrative fee for rule-breaking? Were you required to sign anything agreeing to the handbook terms before being permitted to enroll your daughter in the school?

Depending on the answers to the above, you should consider reporting this as a theft to the police and then asking your local elected representative to press the police to follow up. http://www.kxii.com/mobi?storyid=4656181 Or you could sue: http://www.nsba.org/TEMP/LegalClips/Koch-v-Adams.html

But home-schooling would be a much better use of your time.

 

[giovannile07]

Kids honestly have no say at schools... It's ridiculous, they don't have a right to defend themselves when accused of something. Anyways, police officers come to my school with dogs and just walk around some classes, but they never make you open your backpack nor empty your pockets...

 

[Eagles' Wings]

I stopped reading at "my kids are in public school." Never ceases to amaze me that people in the liberty movement send their kids to be with the government all day.

Do you have school-aged kids? How are you educating them?

 

[Eagles' Wings]

I always question our choice to let the kids go to public school here. But, when your teenager is doing college level classes and is admired for his Liberty convictions by the staff. (not all of the teachers agree. but, they embrace free thinkers), it reaffirms the choice. Today, he had his expensive suit on and went to the State capital speaking on the Bill of Rights as part of his government class.

As for my 2nd son... he chose to home school and we embrace that as well. and he is doing just as well as the aforementioned. And the 2 behind them are doing as well.

Sorry for the small hijack. I just think we found a decent place to resist federal tyranny and grow........

Wow, this is impressive, and a testament to parents who educate their children at home even while the child is attending public school. Your influence for liberty is strong. Are you aware of Chuck Baldwin in Montana? God Speed, Louise

 

[Pericles]

I always question our choice to let the kids go to public school here. But, when your teenager is doing college level classes and is admired for his Liberty convictions by the staff. (not all of the teachers agree. but, they embrace free thinkers), it reaffirms the choice. Today, he had his expensive suit on and went to the State capital speaking on the Bill of Rights as part of his government class.

As for my 2nd son... he chose to home school and we embrace that as well. and he is doing just as well as the aforementioned. And the 2 behind them are doing as well.

Sorry for the small hijack. I just think we found a decent place to resist federal tyranny and grow........

I'm seriously thinking about it.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Just had a lonnggg talk with a lawyer. He cited a 1985 Supreme Court case, New Jersey vs P.L.O which states (paraphrasing) that kids in schools have no 4th amendment rights. The state's (public school) interest overides the individual's. The state school must keep kids safe from guns, drugs, bullies, etc. so random searches will almost always be "justified" by the school.

Supreme Court said that this case is also meant to protect kids from contracts, adult convictions, etc. So, the Court said this is the way to balance out 4th amendment.

I asked about parental intervention and the lawyer said that a child can refuse a search until a parent is present and that the child could be held until parent comes and that search would still happen regardless. Also, a child can be questioned, detained for hours by school personnel and police without notifying parent, due to the fact that they have not been arrested.

AND, this lawyer knew about Ron Paul and the new law passed stripping American citizens from due process in the event state finds them suspect.

So know we must educate our kids and keep fighting for Liberty. God bless America and Ron Paul and each of us.

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

Report a theft. Seriously.

The courts are really funny about the 4th Amendment in schools. They've kind of allowed all sorts of violations of civil liberties to occur. You're never going to win on those grounds. And, if they want to take the phone because they claim it was "on", they probably "can". I have a major problem with the searches, but I do not have a problem with them taking the phone if it was truly "on".

That being said, no LAW was broken, and there is no criminal case, so "evidence" seized should be returned to it's owner. There's no justification for asset forfeiture. Therefore, any "fee" to recover property is even more of a theft than the original seizing of the cell phone.

As someone who recently ran for school board in Charlotte, NC, I would be really interested in where the money that gets collected goes. Let's say you don't pay the $15 and go get a new phone...what does the school do with the confiscated phone? If they sell it, they've just sold stolen property, and the person that buys it is receiving stolen property.

This is bigger than the usurpation of civil liberties. That's bad in and of itself, and if they are allowed by the courts to do it, how do we know that the schools aren't doing this as a way of "revenue generation"? They could claim EVERY cell phone was "on". Who's going to stop them?

It would also be very interesting to find out if any calls were made from the phone after it was taken.

 

[Bruno]

I stopped reading at "my kids are in public school." Never ceases to amaze me that people in the liberty movement send their kids to be with the government all day.

Not everyone can afford to send their kids to private school or are in a postion to home school. The government doesn't like competition, and has created systems to prevent it in many areas.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Report a theft. Seriously.

The courts are really funny about the 4th Amendment in schools. They've kind of allowed all sorts of violations of civil liberties to occur. You're never going to win on those grounds. And, if they want to take the phone because they claim it was "on", they probably "can". I have a major problem with the searches, but I do not have a problem with them taking the phone if it was truly "on".

That being said, no LAW was broken, and there is no criminal case, so "evidence" seized should be returned to it's owner. There's no justification for asset forfeiture. Therefore, any "fee" to recover property is even more of a theft than the original seizing of the cell phone.

As someone who recently ran for school board in Charlotte, NC, I would be really interested in where the money that gets collected goes. Let's say you don't pay the $15 and go get a new phone...what does the school do with the confiscated phone? If they sell it, they've just sold stolen property, and the person that buys it is receiving stolen property.

This is bigger than the usurpation of civil liberties. That's bad in and of itself, and if they are allowed by the courts to do it, how do we know that the schools aren't doing this as a way of "revenue generation"? They could claim EVERY cell phone was "on". Who's going to stop them?

It would also be very interesting to find out if any calls were made from the phone after it was taken.

How did you do with the election? Around here, the status quo prevails and it is virtually impossible to elect people who have financial and constitutional strength. Today we have a special election for City Council, with one, only one, candidate who states that personal property rights must overwhelmingly supercede the City's Planning Commission. I better go vote!

 

[Bruno]

Just had a lonnggg talk with a lawyer. He cited a 1985 Supreme Court case, New Jersey vs P.L.O which states (paraphrasing) that kids in schools have no 4th amendment rights. The state's (public school) interest overides the individual's. The state school must keep kids safe from guns, drugs, bullies, etc. so random searches will almost always be "justified" by the school.

Supreme Court said that this case is also meant to protect kids from contracts, adult convictions, etc. So, the Court said this is the way to balance out 4th amendment.

I asked about parental intervention and the lawyer said that a child can refuse a search until a parent is present and that the child could be held until parent comes and that search would still happen regardless. Also, a child can be questioned, detained for hours by school personnel and police without notifying parent, due to the fact that they have not been arrested.

AND, this lawyer knew about Ron Paul and the new law passed stripping American citizens from due process in the event state finds them suspect.

So know we must educate our kids and keep fighting for Liberty. God bless America and Ron Paul and each of us.

After hearing stories in the news where girls were strip searched without parent consent over a missing $20 bill or to find some tylenol, we instructed our son to never allow any such thing to happen to him, and to demand that his parents get called before he complies with any such requests.

 

[NCGOPer_for_Paul]

How did you do with the election? Around here, the status quo prevails and it is virtually impossible to elect people who have financial and constitutional strength. Today we have a special election for City Council, with one, only one, candidate who states that personal property rights must overwhelmingly supercede the City's Planning Commission. I better go vote!

Not well.

I came in 9th out of 14 candidates. If Republicans would have come out to vote, I had an outside chance of getting into the top 3, which would have gotten me a seat. I was endorsed by the county GOP, BUT, the county GOP did not censure the one candidate who already represented a district, but decided to run for county at-large, AND he did not want to work with me. He worked with the Democrats, and caused Republican voters to get very confused as to what to do.

Ended up only about 10% of the Republicans voted in the school board race. The traitor barely got third based on name recognition and Chamber of Commerce money. Two far left liberals came in one-two. His seat, in a primarily Republican district, went to a Democrat.

 

[Todd]

Might be time to report a stolen cell phone.

+1

 

[satchelmcqueen]

do you have kids? are you rich? do you have the time or partner who does, to home school? if not, then you have no clue what youre saying here. it takes more than just "pull the kids out" to do what youre saying.

I stopped reading at "my kids are in public school." Never ceases to amaze me that people in the liberty movement send their kids to be with the government all day.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

After hearing stories in the news where girls were strip searched without parent consent over a missing $20 bill or to find some tylenol, we instructed our son to never allow any such thing to happen to him, and to demand that his parents get called before he complies with any such requests.

I think this will be the great good to come out of this discussion. Way to Go!

 

[Eagles' Wings]

Not well.

I came in 9th out of 14 candidates. If Republicans would have come out to vote, I had an outside chance of getting into the top 3, which would have gotten me a seat. I was endorsed by the county GOP, BUT, the county GOP did not censure the one candidate who already represented a district, but decided to run for county at-large, AND he did not want to work with me. He worked with the Democrats, and caused Republican voters to get very confused as to what to do.

Ended up only about 10% of the Republicans voted in the school board race. The traitor barely got third based on name recognition and Chamber of Commerce money. Two far left liberals came in one-two. His seat, in a primarily Republican district, went to a Democrat.

So sorry to hear that. I applaude your efforts. +rep

 

[osan]

I recently moved my family to a new city and enrolled my daughters in public school. My younger daughter had her cell phone confiscated during a random search today and the school is demanding a $15 fee, otherwise they will not return the phone to us. The phone was never seen or heard by anyone before it was confiscated. Here are the circumstances:

• During the last class period of the day, someone entered my daughters classroom. All the students groaned, some muttered "not again".
• The person told all of the students to get out their phones. My daughter said her phone is in her backpack, the officer told her to get it out.
• The person inspected each phone, then confiscated my daughter's because "it was on".
• All the students were then told to open their backpacks, empty their pockets, and leave all of their belongings at their desk. They were led to the hall.
• Another person entered the classroom with a dog. All of the students' belongings were presumably searched by this person/dog.
• The students were then given the "all clear" to re-enter the classroom.
• When my wife arrived to pick up my daughter, she was told we owed $15 and they would not release the phone unless she paid. She did not pay.

I see this as a clear violation of the fourth amendment. Not only was there no probable cause for the search, there was not even a reasonable suspicion. It was simply a random search of an entire classroom, which apparently is fairly common at this school based on the way the students reacted. The school handbook says that the school has the right to search outer clothing and belongings if reasonable suspicion exists, and goes on to say that random locker searches may occur. This was not a locker search, nor was it a search of belongings due to reasonable suspicion. The handbook does say that phones should be off during school hours, and my daughter's phone was on, but she never used the phone during the day, nor was it ever heard. Our last school had a rule that phones were okay as long as they were never seen or heard, which is what we were used to.

What I plan to do:
I will NOT be paying the school $15. I plan to call the school tomorrow and request an appointment with the principal. I plan to bring a formal letter with my complaint, requesting they waive the fee and return the phone, and also requesting they immediately stop this unconstitutional practice. My next step would be to contact the administrator of the school district in writing. After this, I am at a loss of what to do next. I am considering contacting an attorney or the ACLU. Any advice would be appreciated.

I would press criminal charges against the principal personally. That should get his attention.

I would approach the prosecutor directly and would be very careful to paint him into a corner. Record the meeting. I would begin by asking the pointed question: if someone has stolen my cell phone, will you press charges. Make him answer the question. Do NOT answer if he responds by asking who stole it. Force an answer, but politely. In response to such a question I would say something like, "before we get to that, if you would please tell me whether you would bring charges; I would like to understand the law on this matter". That should put him at that point. What can he say but "yes"? Once you secure the answer, then tell him about what happened as demand charges be brought forward. If he balks, you will have some basis for taking action against him. Do NOT reveal that you are recording the conversation because he may have you detained. Be sure to secure the recording before letting him know you have it. Then wait and see what sort of backpedaling he may try, if any. If he changes his tune, bring the recording and the story to a local news organization. This is the sort of story that often gets their attention. Bringing the prosecutor's perfidy to public light may be enough to get him to do the right things. Once the principal is faced with arrest for a felony, he is likely to start singing a different tune.

Failing this, I would take him personally to small claims court.

My philosophy on such matters is to hammer into the dust those who offend me. In the immortal words of Archilocus:

"I have a high art; I hurt with cruelty those who damage me."
​

Words by which to live.