Need help refuting isolationism claims

r33d33

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
62
A pro-war friend of mine posted this quote attempting to refute non-interventionist claims. Or as he likes to call, isolationism.

"Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it. But the temper and folly of our enemies may not leave this in our choice." - Thomas Jefferson

He says...

The "peace-niks" seem to think that war is a matter of choice on our part. Therefore, they have the idiotic slogan that "war is not the answer." They should be saying this to the predator rather than the prey.

Why do they not visit the Chicago mob and tell them that "crime is not the answer." Next they might enter the tiger cage in San Francisco and tell the tiger that "eating people is not the answer." Next they could tell a mosquito that "yellow fever is not the answer." Finally, they could tell a forest fire that "burning trees is not the answer."... Read More

It is all equally stupid and naive, but none-the-less appeals to the herd instinct.
 
A pro-war friend of mine posted this quote attempting to refute non-interventionist claims. Or as he likes to call, isolationism.

"Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it. But the temper and folly of our enemies may not leave this in our choice." - Thomas Jefferson

He says...

Better yet, get your friend to explain the reason for the war. It has nothing to do with interventionism unless he swallows the "Iraq attacked us" lie. So how does it apply to his argument?
 
Really weak stuff this guy's coming at you with. Jefferson's quote has nothing to do with the ridiculous scenarios the guy brings up later. And war is a choice -- every time; sometimes it's easier to make, but it's always, always a choice.

"War is not the answer" is not the same as "War is never the answer".

"Peace and friendship with all mankind is our wisest policy, and I wish we may be permitted to pursue it. But the temper and folly of our enemies may not leave this in our choice." - Thomas Jefferson

I agree with this. War and fighting is to be avoided whenever possible, and one should never go looking to pick a fight and sticking one's nose where it doesn't belong. However, when attacked, one should be ready to defend oneself against the attacker. TJ never once says to aggressively pursue proactive warring, militarism, nation-building, invasion, and empire spreading. Nor does he talk about stationing our military all over the world and taking on military interventions in support of 'national interests'. Nor does he talk about indebting future generations in support of maintaining a global empire. Nor does he talk about engaging militarily without a formal Congressional declaration of war. And on and on.


Quote:
The "peace-niks" seem to think that war is a matter of choice on our part. Therefore, they have the idiotic slogan that "war is not the answer." They should be saying this to the predator rather than the prey.

Why do they not visit the Chicago mob and tell them that "crime is not the answer." Next they might enter the tiger cage in San Francisco and tell the tiger that "eating people is not the answer." Next they could tell a mosquito that "yellow fever is not the answer." Finally, they could tell a forest fire that "burning trees is not the answer."... Read More

It is all equally stupid and naive, but none-the-less appeals to the herd instinct.


These scenarios are all strawman arguments. They really have nothing to do with the authority given to the US federal government under the US Constitution regarding national defense and war-making. Last I understood, this still was the law of the land.

Anyway, if you wanna play the game and banter these topics, while avoiding the issue, I think the scenarios just bolster what I stated above. When being attacked directly, one has the right to defend oneself and put protections in place to keep oneself safe. However, does this imply the need to drone bomb half of Africa and India to "eliminate the potential threat of tigers ever attacking another human", spread pesticide across half the world to ensure those "suicide bombing mosquitos never get a chance to come over here and destroy our way of life", and invade, destroy, and take over Italy "because it's where the Mob has it's training camps"? Nevermind the collateral damage, etc. "Better to get them over there than over here", right?

As far as the 'herd instinct', I think this guy has more of a herd mentality than he realizes.

Great also for him to toss in words like 'peace-nik', 'naive', etc. typical namecalling, amateurish and shows the real lack of a defendable position.
 
We told Saddam Hussein back in '91 we didn't give a damn if he invaded Kuwait or not, yet we had no choice but to go to war and we were the victims? We made up stories about African yellowcake and nonexistent Al Qaeda operations in Iraq yet we had no choice and were the victims?

This guy's not making arguments. He's ranting by regurgitating sound bites. Make any reasonable argument at all, and you'll rip him up.
 
Which war? The Iraq war? All wars? Please specify :)

Yeah, that.

We're not "anti-war". We're against unnecessary wars. No one is arguing that the United States should not have gone to war with Japan after Pearl Harbor, or that we shouldn't be hunting down Osama Bin Laden for 9/11, the Kole, and the embassy bombings. But Iraq never had a Pearl Harbor or a 9/11, so why did we invade them?
 
Somebody's trying to oversimplify this issue, as usual. There's quite a gulf in between isolationism and imperialism, with all the room in the world there. But for the forces of imperialism, that big gulf must be denied or denigraded as weakness or xenophobia.
 
I wouldn't rely too much on the Pearl Harbor thing.

I would. The United States is a sovereign country and is free to pursue its policy objectives as was the Empire of Japan. If war is not the answer, you don't bomb other countries' fleets.

Don't give me the we started it by placing an embargo on Japan line. If you do, you are negating the position of all transactions are voluntary mantra. I have no obligation to sell goods to anybody for any reason.

Same reason I don't buy products from companies who pursue political objectives that I don't like.
 
Need help refuting isolationism claims

Get a dictionary. It is obvious to me that any making these claims have not read one.

Define Isolationism
Define Imperialism
Define Non intervention

It is really not hard to understand.
 
Of those who believe in interventionism I've never got them to even admit there's a middle-ground between that and complete isolationism. The worst argument of them all is that non-interventionism is impossible because we've never had such a policy.
 
Get a dictionary. It is obvious to me that any making these claims have not read one.

Define Isolationism
Define Imperialism
Define Non intervention

It is really not hard to understand.

The problem with that is that the dictionary definition has been "Orwelled" to mean exactly what detractors would like it to mean.

i⋅so⋅la⋅tion⋅ism  /ˌaɪsəˈleɪʃəˌnɪzəm, ˌɪsə-/ the policy or doctrine of isolating one's country from the affairs of other nations by declining to enter into alliances, foreign economic commitments, international agreements, etc., seeking to devote the entire efforts of one's country to its own advancement and remain at peace by avoiding foreign entanglements and responsibilities.
:(
 
So he comes back with this response...

"When it comes to Jefferson, but here are two words for you to think about: Barbary pirates. Jefferson sent the marines to shores of Tripoli, without a declaration of war and without the American homeland having ever been attacked, and they fought the "Barbary wars," forever memorialized in the Marine Corps anthem."
 
So he comes back with this response...

And I looked into this briefly, a long time ago. I don't have the links handy.

he did go after the pirates
He also had diplomatic communications with the National leaders. It was not an invasion or conquest.
Peaceful relations with the nations were maintained while going after the criminal element.

Some times the whole story is enlightening.
 
Did he ever act unconstitutionally like the guy claimed? What methods did he use against the barbary piurates?
 
Did he ever act unconstitutionally like the guy claimed? What methods did he use against the barbary piurates?
What part was unconstitutional? Protecting shipping (vital interests) or responding to a declaration of war?
 
That Jefferson sent the marines to shores of Tripoli, without a declaration of war and without the American homeland having ever been attacked.
 
Back
Top