Need help, friends agree w/ everything about Ron Paul- except Foreign Policy

[kill the banks]

Tom Woods comments on those who say, "I like Ron Paul except for his foreign policy."

beat me to it ... but really even I got swallowed up in neocon propaganda on the tube once ... they have to step away and think for themselves / research a bit

and that includes this fiction that bible says this as well ... the devil is in the church we are warned ... beware

 

[Akus]

I got a couple of friends who I'm trying to convince that Ron Paul is the best choice out of all the candidates. They like everything about what the guy stands for but when it comes down to Foreign Policy they are turned off. They don't like they so call Romney the 1% communist, rich guy; Cain theperv or pimp;Perry the idiot.

Saying we need to support Israel, and if we withdraw too quickly it will leave a void for other countries to come in, take over, and
create chaos. They agree we need to get out of the middle east affairs but what about the main ones South Korea(will a war break out between the North/South), Germany, and Itatly.

I tried counter arguments such as our founding fathers warned us flirting with foreign affairs. They come back as this is not the 1770's
this is today, and it's more intertwined than ever before. I said multiple of times we are a Republic not a Empire, and look at Rome the moment they transition from a Republic to a Empire. Rome descended into corruption, and eventually self destructed, and collapsed within.
Mainly because they devalued their currency to support their welfare, and military. America is repeating the same mistakes.

I tried to use counter argument of "Power of Absence" that moment we withdraw from the world, it will remind everyone why they depend on us, and why they need us. They will come back kissing, and shinning our shoes.

I even tried to make a other counter argument, do you see China or Russia going around setting up military bases everywhere. Instead
they are simply establishing stronger alliances with the ones who are against us. Such as Iran(maybe correct me if I'm wrong) or Pakistan for example. I was talking to a other Ron Paul supporter he even had the same problem his dad believed we should keep our so called
"Empire"

The best advice I could give him tell his dad to play Rome/Medieval: Total War video game, and think of America at the same time. See how building, and expanding a Empire will work like a double edge sword. The more you expand your empire, the harder it gets keeping everyone happy. While you have camp your military on the borders everywhere, and at the same time you weaken your core as you expand, and makes easier enemy troops can strike a devastating blow. On top of that if the cities within your core are not well defended or occupiedby troops they can easily go into a revolt. As you expand-forcing you to depend on taking more lands for more money, and resources you create more enemies. So it's like a catch 22.

Now compare how I described playing Rome Total war as in what is happening today in America. We are expanding our Empire, and over
spending ourselves that we have to steal from our own people to provide these cost. We know we cannot afford both welfare/military expansion so we print more money.Within the core of America's Empire is growing weaker with riots(OWS),revolts,being more
divided over ideology. Since we cannot pay off countries that we owe, we pretty much have to whore ourselves out to the world. Letting them up buy our land,real estate, businesses, and worst buying politicians.

It's sad but America is almost a reflection of the Fall of Rome. We have barbarians(illegal aliens)invading our country, our money pretty
much worthless,the general populace now is depending on the govt for help, and foreigners are now calling the shots. Do I need to go on. Does the American people have any say anymore?

The point is of this thread, I just cannot show my friends to understand the consequences of over extending ourselves, and supporting a so called America Empire that we cannot afford. Can anyone help me to make other people to support Ron Paul and overcoming the
"Foreign Policy" argument. Sorry for the long thread btw.

say that yes, we should support israel, the way to do that is to stop military and financial aid to hostily muslim countries surrounding it, which is times and times greater then the aid to israel
tell them also that many times we restrained israel's freedom of defending itself. be sure to site specific examples though
tell them that us not being in the ME will divide different factions that hate us, as they hate each other, too and their common hatred for america is the only glue that keeps them together

 

[moreliberty]

My family can be the same way. But as time goes by they are coming closer to realizing that we cannot fund this aggression. This is one of the last spots many republicans are going to come around on.

 

[EBounding]

Unfortunately, it's up to Ron Paul to persuade conservative voters in regards to foreign policy. There's nothing we can do until he re-frames his message to persuade conservatives instead of anti-war leftists. He can do this without changing his beliefs, but he's not doing so.

His foreign policy message is one of education and what he won't do. He needs to give details about what he will do to defend this country. He's mentioned in bits and pieces how he would be proactive against threats (likes hostiles in the Panama canal). He's explained that he would go to Congress for a Declaration and take care of the threat quickly. That's good stuff. Unfortunately, that's not his main message though. The prominent message is Iran doesn't have nukes and wouldn't be a threat anyway if it did, and to bring our troops home. This makes sense to us, but it makes ZERO sense to most conservative voters.

 

[acptulsa]

Dubya said, '...no nation building,' and the conservatives cheered. Then we got attacked by nineteen Saudis led by a Saudi royal family member, and in response we attacked Iraq because they didn't have yellowcake uranium and Afghanistan because that same Saudi royal was in the country next door. Now we're in Libya not because Congress said so, but because the U.N. said so.

If this is the best job we can do of policing the world, then we really, really need to stop pissing people off and let them police themselves. How obvious can it possibly be that these wars are over oil and natural gas pipelines? And how obvious can it be, seeing as how every time a new middle eastern war is announced the price of gas goes up and up, that despite the fact that we're doing the oil companies these huge favors they are determined to screw us for it?

No, their arguments won't fly. Debate them under the table and move on. Even if they don't get it right away, your words will haunt them...

Lord. I guess I just need to save this spiel somewhere so I can copy it into every one of these identical threads.

 

[klamath]

Agree. My experience over the last year or so is that the conservatives/Republicans who have come to support Ron Paul recently (since the beginning of the Tea Party movement - Spring 2009) do so almost exclusively because of his domestic rather than his foreign policy. They support Ron Paul because they've come to realize that he's the only candidate who truly intends to follow the Constitution, the only one who really intends to begin dismantling the United States government (namely the welfare state and commercial regulations), and because he's the only one willing to actually push for significant spending reductions.

In fact, in the circle of people I've been subtly nudging in Paul's direction over the last couple years, many of them support Ron Paul in spite of his foreign policy positions simply because he's so good on domestic policy that they're willing to grudgingly accept his foreign policy non-interventionism as a "necessary trade-off."

That being the case, the more we can keep foreign policy on the back-burner, IMO, the better.

Unfortunately he has to address foreign policy/defense because he is stuck at 10% because of it. He just has to sell to them that it will work though maybe not to their complete liking. If he doesn't get this done Gringrich is going to be the anti Romney.

 

[Eric21ND]

Can you get them to watch a video? If you can, let Michael Scheuer do the work for you.

Neocons are fairly easy to convert once you give them all the information from a source that isn't Ron Paul. Simply send your friends this video and tell them that Scheuer would be Paul's choice for Secretary of State. Then follow up and ask them if he'd feel safer with Scheuer as Secretary of State or Hillary Clinton. The trick is to present someone they deem credible, like Scheuer, who has a vast amount of experience hunting terrorists. Allow them to make the connection that Paul reiterates a lot of what Scheuer speaks about, thus Paul gains the credibility they invested into Scheuer. The conclusion they'll eventually reach is that Ron Paul has a tremendous grasp of foreign policy, since "he sounds like the CIA guy".

Game, Set, Match.

 

[JamesButabi]

If they agree with a balanced budget, then they must agree with a sensible foreign policy. Inflation and debt has caused people to not analyze costs or consequences.

 

[seapilot]

Its almost impossible to change views that have been implanted for over a very long time. It takes time to get them to be open to other views.

Focus on talking about the things they agree with him on not the things that they disagree. That way they think about that rather than the one thing they disagree with him on.

 

[Eric21ND]

Here's another helpful video that compliments the previous one.

 

[Steve-in-NY]

Ive gotten quite a few tea party types with the following:

"Let Israel do whats best for Israel"

"We can bomb anywhere on the planet in a matter of hours, maybe minutes if we need to, we dont need all these bases anymore, we arent talking about WWII prop planes anymore"

"I dont want my tax dollars going to build mosques in Pakistan"

"If you need to cut some program to save another, I say cut some program we're paying for overseas. Why should we be paying for Iraqs roads and schools?"

In regards to the "Iran will get nukes, or nuke Israel" nonsense

"You really think Israel is going to let that happen?"

"Israels best weapon is her location. Iran is not about to launch a nuke and kill all the Palestinians and wipe out most of the muslim holy lands and sacred whatevers. Not a chance."

Seriously, Ive had success with those. Use at own risk, modify message to suit.

 

[Birdlady]

For me the war is a moral issue, but if someone has different moral values, then it's going to be a hard sell.

Who are we to self-elect ourselves as the police of the world?

If someone has decided that this war is justified, then I think it's going to be quite tough. You have to really sell your soul or be uninformed to justify retaliation on nations that are barely developed. Do they believe 9-11 was caused by Iraq? Iran? If so, then they need a history lesson as well.

You said they agree with Ron Paul on everything else? How about personal liberties? If they believe that the government of this nation should respect its citizens rights to choose what they do with their lives (without harming another), then how can we project our views on human beings in other countries? Regardless of what their governments are doing to their own people, we should not partake in more killing. End doesn't justify the means.

 

[tfurrh]

Ask them to read 1984.
Seriously. It will make a difference.


And this:

 

[european]

I got a couple of friends who I'm trying to convince that Ron Paul is the best choice out of all the candidates.
<snip>
They agree we need to get out of the middle east affairs but what about the main ones South Korea(will a war break out between the North/South), Germany, and Itatly.
<snip>

As being European myself, what are Germany and Italy doing in that list? I really don't get it. Noone will get in war with Germany for sure. And what about Italy? Who ever wants to invade that country? Its broke + the mafia controls the streets so even if you invade the country, you still have to pay the mobsters protectionmoney hahaha.
Last few months I have been in both countries and noone is talking about war there. Its a non-issue.

Maybe we should send our armies to the USA to protect you guys? I think you are more of a target then the European countries.


serious: South Korea, Germany and Italy looks to me as the list Sudan, USA, Canada would look to you.

 

[klamath]

As being European myself, what are Germany and Italy doing in that list? I really don't get it. Noone will get in war with Germany for sure. And what about Italy? Who ever wants to invade that country? Its broke + the mafia controls the streets so even if you invade the country, you still have to pay the mobsters protectionmoney hahaha.
Last few months I have been in both countries and noone is talking about war there. Its a non-issue.

Maybe we should send our armies to the USA to protect you guys? I think you are more of a target then the European countries.


serious: South Korea, Germany and Italy looks to me as the list Sudan, USA, Canada would look to you.

Yeaw I kind of scratched my head when I saw that too.

 

[idiom]

When it comes to non-US nationals I have had 100% instant support for Ron Paul from people who have never heard of him before with the following video:



Universal response: I WANT RON PAUL TO BE PRESIDENT! Every single person.

Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, Protestants.

 

[Jingles]

Ask them to read 1984.
Seriously. It will make a difference.


And this:

I can never get over my amazement after seeing him speak in 1999/2000 as compared to his actual presidency with Afghanistan and Iraq. It makes me think "Wow, I probably could have voted for Bush in 2000" which scares the hell out of me considering what has happened during his actual presidency. That being said, I don't really know much about his record as governor and if I held the same views I do now I would probably still vote Libertarian. BUT WHY, WHY COULDN'T HE HAVE JUST HELD TRUE TO WHAT HE SAID IN THIS VIDEO!? We would be in such a better spot as a nation. =[

Plus, Harry Browne ran in 2000. That guy was amazing.

 

[klamath]

I can never get over my amazement after seeing him speak in 1999/2000 as compared to his actual presidency with Afghanistan and Iraq. It makes me think "Wow, I probably could have voted for Bush in 2000" which scares the hell out of me considering what has happened during his actual presidency. That being said, I don't really know much about his record as governor and if I held the same views I do now I would probably still vote Libertarian. BUT WHY, WHY COULDN'T HE HAVE JUST HELD TRUE TO WHAT HE SAID IN THIS VIDEO!? We would be in such a better spot as a nation. =[

Plus, Harry Browne ran in 2000. That guy was amazing.

because GW collapsed under the pressure of 9/11 and Chaney took over running the country behind the scenes and sometimes not so behind the scenes.

 

[tfurrh]

GWB was elected on the same foreign policy that makes Ron Paul unelectable?

 

[eleganz]

so much fail....if they can't understand the message our military is trying to tell us, then they will never understand why Ron Paul's foreign policy is the best one.