Need Details about "Sound Money"

Pedrique

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I engage in conversation on another political/religious message board. Some are hostile to RP message, others are open but skeptical. Most are very intelligent and very well informed. Below is a sample of a reply regarding a conversation on sound money. Can anyone here help me answer? Please don't direct me to videos or other websites unless the presentation is succinct enough to put into a reply. If you know about this stuff and can actually present what a system operated with commodity backed money would look like, or if you think anything in the below comment needs refuting, then please reply here. Thanks.

From the MessageBoard
"Sound money" is simply a currency that is managed so as to avoid excessive inflation. Now, if you want to argue that 1.5-3.5% annual inflation (as we've had the last decade) is excessive, then I'm willing to listen. But I think that targeting the Federal Reserve as a problem is misguided.

First, there are inflationary contributors to the economy that have nothing to do with money supply, and everything to do with the free market. Just look at fuel prices and the economic impact it has on the cost of goods and services. Goods such as food, housing costs (heating, electricity), and services such as healthcare, are everyday expenses that have the highest impact on the poor and middle class, but have little correlation to monetary policy, and more toward supply/demand volatility.

Second, the Fed doesn't "create" money (print), the Treasury does. The Fed simply manages liquidity in the marketplace by altering reserve requirements and setting the Fed Funds rate for banks. Their objective is to stay within ranges of acceptable short term interest rates, which is their most efficient real time benchmark of inflationary pressures. They are also mandated to follow policies that encourage maximum employment and economic growth. I may not always agree with their decisions in fulfilling their mandate, and perhaps that's RP's complaint, but I don't disagree with their objectives. It's interesting, because most economists would tell you that the Fed is a lagging influence versus a leading influence. Other than short term interest rates, it takes months to assemble wide ranging economic data to make decisions on. Just look at the stock and bond speculation that goes on leading up to Board of Governors meetings.

Finally, the biggest pressure on our economy is the deficit spending of our federal government. The spending is so out of control and large that both Greenspan and Bernanke have continually warned Congress that it is creating economic influences that may exceed the ability of the Fed to effectively manage monetary policy according to it's mandated objectives. But the Fed doesn't create the debt, the US Treasury does. Blaming the Fed in this process is like blaming your stock broker for the performance of the Dow.

The answer to the problem at hand is well known to all, but the political courage to do what is necessary isn't there. Cutting government spending to a level required to not only reverse current trends, but to make a dent in the deficit we've accumulated requires tough decisions that don't always support electability. I actually believe Ron Paul believes in a policy of cutting spending significantly. I just think his method of approach, ala limiting money supply, is economically detrimental and unnecessary when simple good leadership and legislation will acheive the objective.

P.S. I agree with you that if anything, Ron Paul has brought greater attention to certain economic issues that certainly get overlooked in most elections. Kudos to him for that, and I hope the American population in general is listening to the debate."
 
The problem with this issue is that understanding the Federal Reserve and inflation is not entirely straightforward. It requires a little bit of studying and thought.

A response to the second point: actually, yes, the Federal Reserve DOES literally PRINT money. The Federal Reserve has a complete monopoly in the issuance of money in the United States. Look at the top of every paper bill: FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE. The Treasury has NOTHING to do with the creation of money. The treasury issues U.S. government debt, but that's really about it.

Fundamentally, the Federal Reserve literally prints money and that is counterfitting. It creates money from nothing. NOTHING.

If the reader doesn't understand this point, he will never come close to understanding the true problems with the Federal Reserve and inflation.
 
Tenchnically...the guy is right. The US Mint actually "prints" the money, but the Fed basically buys it at the cost of the papaer and ink. So...the fed "issues" the money out of thin air. It's still backed by nothing.
 
check out this movie: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

I know paul mentioned something about the rate of inflation being actually a "snow job" because they changed the means it is derived and if compared to the old method it is much much higher....more importantly as Paul states the inflation really is an enemy to the lower and middle class and maybe these guys don't fall in that category so it is no big deal to them....

Another thing is the fact that the Fed is being paid interest by the Gov.?? that just seems so silly. why even have this private "for profit" institution then to just take a cut?
 
The next sound money,bwahahaha

http://www.halturnershow.com/

scroll down to the Amero, 2007 coin, delayed albeit only slightly. All US dollars will be exchanged for about .75 or less Ameros, therby causing a quisk drop in buying power.
 
I engage in conversation on another political/religious message board. Some are hostile to RP message, others are open but skeptical. Most are very intelligent and very well informed. Below is a sample of a reply regarding a conversation on sound money. Can anyone here help me answer? Please don't direct me to videos or other websites unless the presentation is succinct enough to put into a reply. If you know about this stuff and can actually present what a system operated with commodity backed money would look like, or if you think anything in the below comment needs refuting, then please reply here. Thanks.

From the MessageBoard
"Sound money" is simply a currency that is managed so as to avoid excessive inflation. Now, if you want to argue that 1.5-3.5% annual inflation (as we've had the last decade) is excessive, then I'm willing to listen. But I think that targeting the Federal Reserve as a problem is misguided.

I'd start right there.....WHY do we even have a "FED" ? For over 100 years we had sound money and virtually NO inflation.....so WHY was the FED created.

Answer: So the member banks ( and the folks that own and control them ) could make a profit off the national money supply. That profit costs taxpayers in the form of taxes directly and inflation indirectly. Does it even MATTER to you that the FED is unconstitutional ? That Congress has the "power to coin money and regulate the value thereof".....NOT the power to transfer the power to some other entity !!!!! This fight started almost with the founding of the country. Andy Jackson tossed out the "National Bank" in his administration, and they came back in 1913 to sneak it in in the form of a "federal" agency that didn't need a charter from Congress. These guys have been around a LONG LONG TIME, and know how to work the system.



First, there are inflationary contributors to the economy that have nothing to do with money supply, and everything to do with the free market. Just look at fuel prices and the economic impact it has on the cost of goods and services. Goods such as food, housing costs (heating, electricity), and services such as healthcare, are everyday expenses that have the highest impact on the poor and middle class, but have little correlation to monetary policy, and more toward supply/demand volatility.

Ba-dadgum-loney. Prices ONLY increase for one of two reasons....either the product or service is in short supply, and market forces bid up the price ( you might make that case in oil ), OR the money that buys the product/service is too plentiful, and thus too much money is chasing too few goods.....the money is worth LESS, therefore, it takes MORE of it to buy the same goods.

To say that the increase in the price of this good, or this service is the CAUSE of inflation is generally wrong.....one is simply seeing the EFFECT of inflation as it ripples thru the economy. The root cause is TOO MUCH EASY CREDIT which the FED certainly DOES control, and that translates into money created when the borrowers get a loan....which is HOW the money ( either paper or electronic digit ) comes into creation.....it DID NOT EXIST before someone borrowed it.


Second, the Fed doesn't "create" money (print), the Treasury does.

Horse feathers again. Simply confusing the issue of who does the ACTUAL printing of a VERY VERY minor part of the "money" that is created. MOST "money" is created as electronic digits in a book keeping entry. But even the actual, physical cash that the US Treasury DOES print is sold to the FED for the cost of printing ( seems like it's a couple cents per note, no matter whether that is a ONE or a ONE HUNDRED ), then the FED lends that money BACK to the people AT INTEREST....which is EXACTLY WHY THE FED WAS CREATED, and WHY the money supply must constantly expand to provide a way to pay BACK the principle + the interest. Inflation is NO ACCIDENT....it is part of the design. The only accident is when it gets away from the nice, slow, savings eating 2-4% they like to have.


The Fed simply manages liquidity in the marketplace by altering reserve requirements and setting the Fed Funds rate for banks. Their objective is to stay within ranges of acceptable short term interest rates, which is their most efficient real time benchmark of inflationary pressures. They are also mandated to follow policies that encourage maximum employment and economic growth. I may not always agree with their decisions in fulfilling their mandate, and perhaps that's RP's complaint, but I don't disagree with their objectives. It's interesting, because most economists would tell you that the Fed is a lagging influence versus a leading influence. Other than short term interest rates, it takes months to assemble wide ranging economic data to make decisions on. Just look at the stock and bond speculation that goes on leading up to Board of Governors meetings.

Finally, the biggest pressure on our economy is the deficit spending of our federal government. The spending is so out of control and large that both Greenspan and Bernanke have continually warned Congress that it is creating economic influences that may exceed the ability of the Fed to effectively manage monetary policy according to it's mandated objectives.

Translation: You drunken spending sailors in Congress are FORCING us to create money at a faster rate than we like.


But the Fed doesn't create the debt, the US Treasury does. Blaming the Fed in this process is like blaming your stock broker for the performance of the Dow.

Baloney again. No, the FED doesn't create debt....BUT WITHOUT IT, they would collapse. THIS is EXACTLY why Ben Bernake got the name "Helicoper Ben" when he said "we can create enough money to drop it out of helicopter doors if we have to to prevent DEFLATION".....their WORST FEAR....that consumers, and the government MIGHT actually STOP borrowing, and the whole house of cards collapse in reverse !!!!!!

This is what happened in the 30's when the money control got away from them, and it took WWII to get us out of it......and was ONE of the primary reasons FOR WWII !! ( you won't find that in your public education texts )


The answer to the problem at hand is well known to all, but the political courage to do what is necessary isn't there. Cutting government spending to a level required to not only reverse current trends, but to make a dent in the deficit we've accumulated requires tough decisions that don't always support electability. I actually believe Ron Paul believes in a policy of cutting spending significantly. I just think his method of approach, ala limiting money supply, is economically detrimental and unnecessary when simple good leadership and legislation will acheive the objective.

Actually, I don't believe either one will happen, or the system will implode sooner than later. JFK went down this road in 1962-63, issuing an EO to start the Treasury issuing United States Notes, ( they had a red border...you can still find them occasionally in a coin shop )and put into circulation at NO interest to the taxpayer rather than FED note. You might take note he got killed off shortly thereafter. Message: Don't SCREW WITH the money guys.

Ron Paul should fear for his life if it gets to the point he looks like a serious contender for the office. These folks will try the ignore method, then the discredit method, but make no mistake....they aren't above the kill 'em method.


Tnandy
 
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Second, the Fed doesn't "create" money (print), the Treasury does
For the most part, this is not true. Of course the treasury prints paper money and creates coins, but that represents a tiny percentage of our overall money supply. The Fed is the institution which grants the authority to banks to loan out new money (money that previously never existed). That in essence is how new money is primarily created, via loans, as debt.
 
Thanks for the good information. If something positive results I'll try to keep you informed. I'll try to look at the videos when I have more time (not middle of work day)
 
I would judge, based upon the conversation you provided, that most of them are NOT very intelligent and very "well-informed".

There has never been a fiat currency that did not fail. Ours will be no different. Some just take longer than others. And since we elbowed our way to becoming the world's "reserve currency", it has just taken longer for us to reach total financial meltdown. But it IS coming, you can make bank on it. The sheer MASSIVE, GIGANTIC, ENORMOUS, ONEROUS mountain of debt has all but assured us of it.

And failing to see how the Federal "Reserve" System has led us to the edge of the abyss only shows a tendency to walk through ones life with blinders on, believing the Federal Government "has everything under control, and would NEVER let anything bad happen to us".

Have these folks at the other "political/religious message board" read Romans Chapter 13 and Why Are Christians So Gullible and a host of other articles by Pastor Chuck Baldwin
 
a couple quick points - the dollar is still backed. no longer by gold, now by oil markets. ultimately, it is backed by weapons. we sell these to oil rich nations that play our game by keeping their oil markets on the dollar, only exclusively on the dollar. this is the petrodollar, the first part of dollar hegemony.

The second part is that fiat currency is highly subject to speculation, to the point where one nation might try to bankrupt another. To prevent these national level panics, central banks across the globe keep dollars as a reserve currency, because it can prevent speculative runs on national currencies. Translation = other fiat currencies are quasi-backed by us dollars, which are backed by oil, which is caused by arms sales, economic threats, and military action.

We see this happen in Venezuela, Iraq, and soon Iran. For the time being, Saudi Arabia is happy on the payroll.

So "liquidity" is paid for by war and terrorism.

I also challenge the 1.5 - 3.5% annual inflation. This is a government created statistic, that uses some dubious methods to calculate inflation. For example, moore's law is basically assumed to mean that there is 100% deflation on computer prices every 2 years, because performance doubles while price stands still. But try to buy a 5 year old desktop for under $100. It doesn't hold.

Inflation due to monetary supply increase can only be measured by comparing goods whose demand and supply don't really change. Food, oil, medical care, housing, energy, clothing, automobiles, furniture... these give a better estimation of inflation, yet they are particularly skewed in government produced statistics, especially since most of those industries are subsidized or heavily regulated.

When you cut the BS talk and really look at it, inflation is close to 10% annually, which keeps in line with how much money is cranked out by the FED and its member banks, be it cash or electronic. Money supply doubles about every decade...and so do prices.

A good way to look at this is stamp prices. If anything, the internet has created less demand for paper mail. This should reduce the price, yet inflation in stamp prices keeps in line with what i said above.

And yes, spending is the biggest problem, but when people don't realize monetary supply is a hidden tax, they don't think about it. They don't realize borrowed money is a future tax. If we had to pay the real costs of "guns and butter" in direct, up-front taxation, all of congress would be voted out of office next cycle.

The real reason to transition off the FED is that when oil markets finally sway off the dollar and we can't finance our foreign wars, dollars will slowly only afford american goods (bc of legal tender law). This will create an influx of money and hyperinflation. While our economy will seemingly boom, a bust will come in after. The FED will have to lend out even more money to prevent that, but by that time, inflation will be so high it will cause political turmoil. This is why Ron thinks our policy is insane - we are heading towards economic collapse and violent revolt.
 
The "dollar" has lost 25% MORE of its "value" since GeeDubYa seized the throne.
 
Good thoughts bobbo,

One more issue that comes up repeatedly that I can't answer effectively is this: "okay say the Fed is a problem, what would our economy look like without it?"

Anyone care to offer a good explanation of how we could transition off of this dependency on the Federal Reserve as well as how an economy without the Fed would ultimately function? Please give fair answers - i.e. address legitimate concerns to weening ourselves off of the current system. What hardships might we endure to get back to being on the right track, and what does the right track look like in terms of future trade and economic policy? Thanks.
 
The problem of the Fed is a principal problem. You talk about the plusses and minuses of managing reserve requirement mandates and prime lending rates until you are blue in the face, but the facts remain:

1. The Fed is a private for-profit corporation that controls our money supply. It is the ultimate special interest favor accorded by government. Embedded private interests in the government always work for the benefit of the individuals in governent and the private interests at the expense of individual freedom. This is a conflict of interest, plain and simple.

2. The government is beholden to whoever controls the Fed because the Fed determines how much credit to grant the government and for what purpose. This puts those in charge of the Fed above the law because they control who writes the laws. In a fair and free society, no one is above the law. The system of checks and balances are there to ensure that no one exercises disproportionate power.

3. Those who control the Fed control the big corporations that control our industries and resources.

4. Those who control the Fed control our politicians and news media.

Arguably, it's not as though the top bankers are making plans for world domination with nefarious glee. They're planning ahead for what they believe are future developments in the marketplace and they want to position themselves accordingly to maintain their position. However, like all well-intentioned plans, there are unintended consequences and these guys are doing whatever they can to insulate themselves personally from them. Such pre-emption always comes at the expense of the common person.

The only peaceful antidote I see for this is for people to resort to bartering with alternative currencies. If enough people ignore fiat currencies, the powers behind their issuance will gradually diminish. They need to be forced back into trading in a free market. This, IMO, is what brought down the Soviet Union. There was such a significant black market economy that the fiat-backed economy could not sustain itself. I believe the same thing can happen in the so-called 'Capitalistic' realm.

As long as two people are willing to exchange what they have with each other, there will always be a free-market.
 
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Before you go any further, you need to make him back up his inflationary figure.

As long as the debat is being framed in a way that the current fed is handling inflation properly, you can't win the debate.

The truth is, in theory nothing is wrong with fiat currency.

The problem is with man. The ability to generate wealth is a power far too corruptible. The communist theory is fine as well - until you introduce the fallacy of man to the equation.
 
BThe truth is, in theory nothing is wrong with fiat currency.

The problem is with man.

Here's the definition of 'fiat' from dictionary.com

1. an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat.
2. a formula containing the word fiat, by which a person in authority gives sanction.
3. an arbitrary decree or pronouncement, esp. by a person or group of persons having absolute authority to enforce it: The king ruled by fiat.

By this definition, the problem is with fiat currency BECAUSE the problem is with man.

If you believe, as I do, that free markets are more desireable than the current economic system, then fiat currency is a problem.
 
Ron Paul would not end the Fed. He would remove the laws making them the only ones able to make the money. Then people who were in the business of hard money would enter the market and no one would want worthless federal reserve notes and they would go out of business.

We have no idea what form it would take. But once you allow competition to come in, then innovation takes over and people come up with fascinating ideas. If you didn't like the choices, you could always stick with a worthless piece of paper. It would be up to you.

There would be no hardships. He is not ending anything. He would be offering a choice. That's all.

That's the best explanation of RP's position I've read yet.
 
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