"National Divorce" - is it time to split up?

79% of Americans now agree the nation is "falling apart"

[...]

“Fourth-fifths of Americans — both Republicans and Democrats — say America is falling apart,” Axios said in an analysis of the poll, which was conducted Monday through Wednesday.

“Why it matters: The question, asked Tuesday and Wednesday, reflects the collision of crises besetting the country — the backdrop of a pandemic, recession, decoupling of red/blue America, and racial injustice and the immediacy of the Capitol insurrection, followed by Impeachment II,” the pollster said.

[...]

• 32% of U.S. adults “strongly agree that America is falling apart”; 41% of Republicans, 29% of independents and 29% of Democrats agree.
• 47% overall “somewhat agree” with the statement; 42% of Republicans, 48% of independents and 49% of Democrats agree.
• 16% overall “somewhat disagree” with the statement; 13% of Republicans, 18% of independents and 16% of Democrats agree.
• 4% overall “strongly disagree” with the statement; 3% of Republicans, 3% of independents and 7% of Democrats agree.

Source: An Axios/IPSOS poll of 1,019 U.S. adults conducted Jan. 11-13.
 
https://twitter.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1362548334766952448


SOURCE: American democracy at the start of the Biden presidency / Bright Line Watch January-February 2021 surveys

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Thanks for posting that, I had been meaning to find that clip for days now.

All that remains to be seen is if freedom folks will seize this once in a lifetime chance to make a bold difference, or do what we usually end up doing, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

The fact that many of the usual suspects have already chimed in to tut tut and poo pooh the idea, leads me to believe the latter, as usual.
 
Occam's Banana said:
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Occam's Banana said:
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We need to ignore their propaganda maps and concentrate on this map (and Alberta, Canada too).

Occam's Banana said:
I've composed a map of the states for which governors or attorneys general have declared opposition to or criticism of the Biden administration's federal vaccine mandate.

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Some of the declarations are pretty weak sauce, and it remains to be seen if even the fire-breathing ones are anything more than the bloviations of posturing gas-bags. Of course, the real test will come if the feds win the inevitable court challenges. If that happens, then we'll see who bends the knee, and the wheat (if any) will be separated from the chaff.

Here are the statements or expressions upon which the map is based:

Alabama (Governor): “Once again, President Biden has missed the mark. His outrageous, overreaching mandates will no doubt be challenged in the courts. Placing more burdens on both employers and employees during a pandemic with the rising inflation rates and lingering labor shortages is totally unacceptable. Alabamians have stepped up by rolling up their sleeves to get the covid-19 vaccine, increasing our doses administered significantly in recent weeks. We have done so without mandates from Washington D.C. or Montgomery. I’ve made it abundantly clear: I support the science and encourage folks taking the vaccine. However, I am absolutely against a government mandate on the vaccine, which is why I signed the vaccine passport ban into law here in Alabama. This is not the role of the government. I continue encouraging any Alabamian who can, to get the covid-19 vaccine. We have a safe and effective tool at our fingertips, so, let’s roll up our sleeves and get this thing beat.”

Alaska (Governor): https://twitter.com/GovDunleavy/status/1436138525355753488
 

Arkansas (Governor): “I fully support continued efforts to increase vaccination rates across our nation, but the federal government mandates on private businesses are not the right answer. I have been consistent in the freedom of businesses to require their employees to be vaccinated, and I have opposed the government from saying businesses cannot exercise that freedom. The same principle should protect private sector from government overreach that requires them to vaccinate all employees.”

Arizona (Governor): “This is exactly the kind of big government overreach we have tried so hard to prevent in Arizona — now the Biden-Harris administration is hammering down on private businesses and individual freedoms in an unprecedented and dangerous way. This will never stand up in court. This dictatorial approach is wrong, un-American and will do far more harm than good. How many workers will be displaced? How many kids kept out of classrooms? How many businesses fined? The vaccine is and should be a choice. We must and will push back.”

Florida (Governor): https://twitter.com/BernieSpofforth/status/1436623044080975874
 

Georgia (Governor): “I will pursue every legal option available to the state of Georgia to stop this blatantly unlawful overreach by the Biden administration.”

Idaho (Governor): https://twitter.com/kxly4news/status/1436389067248254977
 

Indiana (Governor): https://twitter.com/DWilliamsTV/status/1436351350389059584
 

Iowa (Governor): “President Biden is taking dangerous and unprecedented steps to insert the federal government even further into our lives while dismissing the ability of Iowans and Americans to make healthcare decisions for themselves. Biden’s plan will only worsen our workforce shortage and further limit our economic recovery. As I’ve said all along, I believe and trust in Iowans to make the best health decisions for themselves and their families. It’s time for President Biden to do the same. Enough.”

Kansas (Attorney General): “No president has the legal authority to decree a national vaccine mandate or to punish private businesses that refuse to discriminate against employees based on their health status. President Biden yesterday scolded ‘this is not about freedom,’ but the rule of law most certainly is. If the president's overreaching rhetoric becomes federal action, then rest assured we will vigorously challenge it." [source: https://ag.ks.gov/media-center/news...statement-on-proposed-federal-vaccine-mandate]

Kentucky (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/kyoag/status/1436412473553399819
 

Mississippi (Governor): “The President has no authority to require that Americans inject themselves because of their employment at a private business. The vaccine itself is life-saving, but this unconstitutional move is terrifying. This is still America, and we still believe in freedom from tyrants.”

Louisiana (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/thecentersquare/status/1437528269667119111
 

Missouri (Governor): “The Biden Administration’s recent announcement seeking to dictate personal freedom and private business decisions is an insult to our American principles of individual liberty and free enterprise. This heavy-handed action by the federal government is unwelcome in our state and has potentially dangerous consequences for working families. Vaccination protects us from serious illness, but the decision to get vaccinated is a private health care decision that should remain as such. My administration will always fight back against federal power grabs and government overreach that threatens to limit our freedoms.”Montana (Governor): “President Biden’s vaccination mandate is unlawful and un-American. We are committed to protecting Montanans’ freedoms and liberties against this gross federal overreach.”

Nebraska (Governor): https://twitter.com/SKMorefield/status/1436153861681647616
 

New Hampshire (Governor): https://twitter.com/KlandriganUL/status/1437509335156932609
 

North Dakota (Governor): https://twitter.com/jeremyjturley/status/1436371151283003396
 

Ohio (Governor): https://twitter.com/KDKA/status/1436449471064387589
 

Oklahoma (Governor): “It is not the government’s role to dictate to private businesses what to do. Once again President Biden is demonstrating his complete disregard for individual freedoms and states’ rights. As long as I am governor, there will be no government vaccine mandates in Oklahoma. My administration will continue to defend Oklahoma values and fight back against the Biden administration’s federal overreach.”

South Carolina (Governor): “The American Dream has turned into a nightmare under President Biden and the radical Democrats. They have declared war against capitalism, thumbed their noses at the Constitution, and empowered our enemies abroad. Rest assured, we will fight them to the gates of hell to protect the liberty and livelihood of every South Carolinian.”

South Dakota (Governor): “My legal team is standing by ready to file our lawsuit the minute @Joebiden files his unconstitutional rule. This gross example of federal intrusion will not stand.”

Tennessee (Governor): https://twitter.com/FOXNashville/status/1436148671490502660
 

Texas (Governor): “Biden’s vaccine mandate is an assault on private businesses. I issued an Executive Order protecting Texans’ right to choose whether they get the COVID vaccine & added it to the special session agenda. Texas is already working to halt this power grab.”

Utah (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/abc4utah/status/1436146611965542403
 

West Virginia (Attorney General): https://twitter.com/MorriseyWV/status/1436144571570872322
 

Wyoming (Governor): https://twitter.com/NorthPlattePost/status/1436414309534355457
 


Sources (if not given above):
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People like to make out parts of the south are some sort of bastion of freedom. I assuming because they vote for Republican, but when you think about it really Republican Neocons and authoritarians. Some of these places the police are pretty prolific and militarized.

I am all for separation but I think people my be disappointed in what may result in these regions. I know some people have completely given up on trying to reach people but if you don't try to reach people you are going to be sorely disappointed come separation day.
 
kahless said:
People like to make out parts of the south are some sort of bastion of freedom. I assuming because they vote for Republican, but when you think about it really Republican Neocons and authoritarians. Some of these places the police are pretty prolific and militarized.

I am all for separation but I think people my be disappointed in what may result in these regions. I know some people have completely given up on trying to reach people but if you don't try to reach people you are going to be sorely disappointed come separation day.
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You realize that right now we have all of that fun plus a rising... I don't actually know what to call it... a rising techno-quasi-socialist-authoritarian-fascist-adjacent... regime emergent within the United States, one nation, indivisible, right? (I get that's a brutal sentence to work thru, but do try, it actually makes sense...).

Anyway, the point is, I'll take my chances with local police who want to play operator vs. the entire USG apparatus crawling up our asses, thank you very much.
 
A Son of Liberty said:
You realize that right now we have all of that fun plus a rising... I don't actually know what to call it... a rising techno-quasi-socialist-authoritarian-fascist-adjacent... regime emergent within the United States, one nation, indivisible, right? (I get that's a brutal sentence to work thru, but do try, it actually makes sense...).

Anyway, the point is, I'll take my chances with local police who want to play operator vs. the entire USG apparatus crawling up our asses, thank you very much.
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They would just have more power to hassle you without having to worry about things like the Feds interfering, the Constitution-Bill of Rights.

I bet if you questioned the people that wanted to separate in those polls, their kind of freedom is nothing like imagined. Like I said, I am all for and prefer separation but without some movement saying what it is going to be like you may end up with more of the same or worse depending where you are.

For those that think they will be allowed to go off on their own and not be hassled, that is not going to happen when you are outnumbered by people that believe otherwise. People are easily led, it does not have to be this way. If the liberty movement was rebuilt like it was during Ron's 2008 campaign and pushed a list of separation values those people can be led away from authoritarianism.

Right now you have an entire generation of young people that love of government and it's authority is all they know.
 
Occam's Banana said:
https://twitter.com/michaelmalice/status/1446673203556933633
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Rich Lowry said:
It would burn down America to save America, or at least those parts of it considered salvageable.
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Yes. Precisely.

A disaggregated United States would be instantly less powerful.
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Gasp! Oh noez. Our ability to send our young men and women to die in pointless wars will be less likely!? Perish the thought, Rich. Fucking idiot...

The economic consequences could be severe. The United States of America is a continentwide free-trade zone, creating a vast domestic market that makes us all better off. Exchanging that for a market Balkanized by state or region would be a major loss.
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Yes, history proves that the only way to have free trade zones is if states are ruled by a central authority. (Do I need to provide the /sarc tag here, or is it obvious enough?)

So far, I'm basically annoyed that the twit has a national platform while I toil away my days earning a fair living.

Finally, the United States foundering on its domestic divisions would be a significant blow to the prestige of liberal democracy.
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Well, first... no. If the US balkanized, it would prove that "liberal democracy" actually works, in that "the people" would have spoken, and their will would have been done. Second, you chimpanzee, you do not understand the actual founding of These united States. And neither did Lincoln.

If there were to be sovereign pure-red and blue places, this wouldn’t look like the relatively neat split of the United States into two in the 1860s, but more like post–Peace of Westphalia Europe, with hundreds of different entities.
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I'm sorry, what's the problem here? The Treaty of Westphalia resulted in a dynamic Europe, and contrary to popular opinion did not result in the world wars of the 20th century - those were precipitated by the consolidation of power, not the dissolution of it.

Some proponents of national divorce say not to worry — it can all be worked out amicably. But if we are going to split up because we can’t even agree on bathroom policies or pronouns, how are we going to agree to divvy up our territory and resources?
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In 99% of the territory, these aren't even questions. Get out and move around the country a little bit, Rich. It would be a problem in NY and CA, but fuck them. I don't care.

On the other hand, Texas isn’t quite as ruby-red as it used to be. It could secede and still find itself governed by the very Democrats it hoped to leave behind.
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And this is the difference between state and national politics... and since you only think of FedGov, you don't understand that.

Besides, would the rest of the country really be willing to watch a state of 29 million people that represents the ninth-largest economy in the world go its own way?
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Multiple responses to this, so I'll go with molon labe. Option number 2 would be, "huh?"

The real impetus for the talk of a breakup is despair. It constitutes giving up on convincing our fellow Americans, giving up on our common national project, giving up on our birthright.
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Our birthright is the Declaration of Independence, as far as political documents go. Nothing else. Not the constitution, not the lower 48. Not the original 13 colonies. Not any of that. It is the right of self-ownership - the right to life, liberty and property, which is self-evident, and provable. I don't give a DAMN if I'm the only one left on the planet who believes that. I'll assert that right to my death.

I can't believe this simpleton has a national platform, and here I am pointlessly fussing on an internet backwater website, preaching to the choir. Sigh.
 
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