NAGR is the enemy of gun rights in North Carolina

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A connection to Mike Rothfield/Saber is about all I need to know about this organization. To simply shuffle the acronym for an existing gun rights lobby is about what I'd expect out of them. Thanks for the heads up Gunny. I'll pass the word around and double check who it is soliciting funds.
 
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From an old thread...

I see Mike Rothfield consults with Gun Owners of America. What is our position on Gun Owners of America?

Well, that makes sense. I'm sure he acquired a rather nice mailing list and decided to cash in on the liberty movement. Again.
 
You have to be able to raise money in order to be consistently effective.

You mean like the NRA?

They have been fleecing and screwing gun owners for years. and I expect the same thing here.

and they all support a police state..
and that is the bottom line.
 
What restrics? This bill makes no requirements for Concealed Carry except that you can legally possess a gun.
.

And that is an issue that no one will touch.

and it is key.

Possession of any tool of self defense should not be prohibited.. or even questioned.

There should never be any question of legal possession,, unless it is clearly a stolen weapon..(witnessed observation)
 
OK, I realize this thread is about NC. I don't know much about NC so I don't have anything to add on NC I'll defer to members from there like Gunny. I don't have anything to counter his claims about NCGR, sounds like they have screwed up.


That said, as far as NAGR in Texas goes I do have something to add. NAGR and their state affiliate here TXGR are the good guys. the leaders here are respectable grassroots liberty advocates. They are one of the few groups supporting our CC bill here. Their political PAC gets involved in primaries and contributes directly to candidates and sends out direct mail supporting a good candidate or attacking a bad one, and in every case I have seen they are contributing to the right side. Yes, their fundraising can be annoying, but I don't mind a few hundred emails in my spam box when good campaigns are getting $1,000 checks. I only wish they were writing even bigger checks, but hey its better than what most of us can do.

Now, they may be inefficient, I have no doubt there is some waste. And their claim to be the only no compromise group is suspect, bu to be fair there were few if any other active no compromise groups here before they came on the scene. And so far I have never seen them compromise.

They do lobby for good legislation like our Constitutional Carry bill at the capitol and call BS on the leadership when the legislature tries to give us watered down substitute bills instead.

There are few groups around here that have proven trustworthy in this state and so far they haven't been a disappointment. All I know is in this state they have been a force for good. I don't think you will find any informed liberty person in Texas who would claim that we would be better off without them here.
 
You mean like the NRA?

They have been fleecing and screwing gun owners for years. and I expect the same thing here.

and they all support a police state..
and that is the bottom line.
No, NAGR does not support a police state, and yes the NRA is a bad organization most of the time. NAGR's budget is less than $20 million, the NRA's is more than $100 million. The NRA has also given themselves monopoly status by writing themselves into many state laws for training and qualification.
 
If naming yourself by the acronym of an actually legitimate Gun Rights org who has been operating here for 20 years is how you are raising money, then you are crooked as hell. If you are trying to take away from a group who is in the General Assembly 3 days a week, every week, for the last 20 years when all your org does is send emails soliciting donations, you are not being effective. Unless your intend is to destroy gin rights organizations.
First off, they are not "taking away" from anyone. If they are better at fundraising than the other group, then it is a free market and they deserve to raise funds. It's not like the previous group "owns" donor's discretionary money :rolleyes:



Secondly, about the name, yeah that can create some confusion I don't disagree. However my guess is that they may not have known the other group existed before they set up shop.



Shutting down and discrediting NC's only pro-gun legislators? This is what they think they can accomplish?
If NAGR is attacking them, then they aren't really pro gun, or at least aren't pro-gun enough. They have very high standards.


Bullshit. You don't have the first clue what you are talking about. NC had been under liberal domination since the 1870's. In the five years since Republicans have taken back NC's government, we have made more gun right gains than any other State in the union.
Ask yourself this... why was NAGR able to pass ConCarry in WV the first year they gained Republican control? Why is it taking you +5 years?



Do you even know who Larry Pittman and Michael Speciale are whom you are accusing of being "Bad Legislators?" Because I know them personally, and I have for over a decade, and you are full of shit.
Are they willing to force a clean ConCarry bill to the floor of each chamber and demand a recorded vote?





You do understand that constantly accusing someone of drunkenness whenever you disagree with them is called "Libel" right? If we needed any evidence of your crooked and unprincipled nature, there it is.
Then perhaps you shouldn't write as if you are intoxicated.
 
First off, they are not "taking away" from anyone. If they are better at fundraising than the other group, then it is a free market and they deserve to raise funds. It's not like the previous group "owns" donor's discretionary money :rolleyes:

Secondly, about the name, yeah that can create some confusion I don't disagree. However my guess is that they may not have known the other group existed before they set up shop.

Considering that Grassroots NC has been active in NC for over 20 years and is familiar to every gun rights activist in the state, the fact that they may not have known about them is not exactly a recommendation.

If NAGR is attacking them, then they aren't really pro gun, or at least aren't pro-gun enough. They have very high standards.

Bullshit.

Ask yourself this... why was NAGR able to pass ConCarry in WV the first year they gained Republican control? Why is it taking you +5 years?

A couple years ago I might have considered that they had something to do with it. Now that I have seen their 'activism' up close and personal I am inclined to believe WV passed it in spite of NAGR.

Are they willing to force a clean ConCarry bill to the floor of each chamber and demand a recorded vote?

THEY are, like they were in 2015, 2013, 2011; but LEADERSHIP decides what is and is not heard in committee, and leadership is the residue of Thom Tillis. Discharge Petitions do not work. You can introduce a dozen perfect bills, but when the Speaker decides red light green light which bills are allowed to be heard in Committee, and they do not want a bill heard, then you get nothing at all done.

If Gun Rights NC had bothered to actually spend any effort at all to understand the environment here then they might have understood what is going on. This is the same reason Reilly fell apart with Brannon. The Saber orgs want to come into NC and think they can make things happen with ZERO understanding of NC politics. All politics is local. Trying to come at NC as though we were WV or LA does not work. It will not work.

Then perhaps you shouldn't write as if you are intoxicated.

Perhaps it takes a narcissistic blithering ignoramus to constantly assume anyone who doesn't worship you must be drunk, and a sociopath to not give a fuck about the real professional harm that can be done by such libelous accusations.
 
Considering that Grassroots NC has been active in NC for over 20 years and is familiar to every gun rights activist in the state, the fact that they may not have known about them is not exactly a recommendation.
How big is their list?



A couple years ago I might have considered that they had something to do with it. Now that I have seen their 'activism' up close and personal I am inclined to believe WV passed it in spite of NAGR.
Because you don't know what you are talking about. You never took the time to learn or understand their strategy therefor you can't comprehend what is going on behind the scenes. I was the guy who first passed in WV, and I assure you, it wouldn't have happened it it weren't for our action. The locals had been working for years to get it done and couldn't.



THEY are, like they were in 2015, 2013, 2011; but LEADERSHIP decides what is and is not heard in committee, and leadership is the residue of Thom Tillis. Discharge Petitions do not work. You can introduce a dozen perfect bills, but when the Speaker decides red light green light which bills are allowed to be heard in Committee, and they do not want a bill heard, then you get nothing at all done.
Have they ever tried to discharge a bill? If they haven't then that is why they are ineffective. In order to get something passed you MUST have a recorded floor vote. As you have observed, leadership doesn't want that, so you have to force the vote anyway. If the guys in there don't have enough of a spine to do that, then they really aren't helping. If they aren't willing to defy leadership, then they in fact going along with leadership.




Trying to come at NC as though we were WV or LA does not work. It will not work.
Actually as someone who has traveled the country and operated in many states, I can tell you that it does in fact work the same everywhere. Politics in the US is extremely formulaic.
 
I skimmed the bill so tell me if I'm wrong. This is for unlicensed conceal carry only, right?

Google tells me that open carry is already legal in NC. It's confusing to have it called constitutional carry when they only seem to reference concealed carry in the bill's description.
 
That said, as far as NAGR in Texas goes I do have something to add. NAGR and their state affiliate here TXGR are the good guys. the leaders here are respectable grassroots liberty advocates. They are one of the few groups supporting our CC bill here.
TXGR are one of a few groups who supported open carry from the start.

The NRA and TSRA jumped on the bandwagon at the last minute when it was obvious their members were getting annoyed at them dragging their feet. I remember Charles Cotton (Mr. NRA of Texas), after Open Carry passed, was lamenting on his own forum that getting open carry passed was a waste of gun rights energy. You'll notice that the NRA and TSRA are not at all supporting the Constitutional Carry bill for this legislature session. They (Charles Cotton) spend their time criticizing Jonathan Stickland and Don Huffines, who are the strongest 2nd Amendment supporters we have in Texas. They also love Speaker of the House Joe Straus; the guy who almost killed Open Carry and the guy who will make sure Constitutional Carry never sees a vote this session.

IMO groups like NAGR are great for forcing the NRA to actually support gun rights in these state fights. All the hand-wringing over OCT in Texas was just whiny babies scared to fight for our rights.
 
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No, NAGR does not support a police state,

You are as full of shit as the day is long.

There is NO gun organization that does not..
Every one supports Police.. and more police. and tools for police.. and Regulation of Guns..

Every Phucking One.

None call for less Police.
None insist on Leashes for the Dog.

All insist on keeping guns from some.
 
You are as full of shit as the day is long.

There is NO gun organization that does not..
Every one supports Police.. and more police. and tools for police.. and Regulation of Guns..

Every Phucking One.

None call for less Police.
None insist on Leashes for the Dog.

All insist on keeping guns from some.
Nope, you are wrong. NAGR routinely fights sheriff and police associations when trying to pass Constitutional Carry.
 
TXGR are one of a few groups who supported open carry from the start.

The NRA and TSRA jumped on the bandwagon at the last minute when it was obvious their members were getting annoyed at them dragging their feet. I remember Charles Cotton (Mr. NRA of Texas), after Open Carry passed, was lamenting on his own forum that getting open carry passed was a waste of gun rights energy. You'll notice that the NRA and TSRA are not at all supporting the Constitutional Carry bill for this legislature session. They (Charles Cotton) spend their time criticizing Jonathan Stickland and Don Huffines, who are the strongest 2nd Amendment supporters we have in Texas. They also love Speaker of the House Joe Straus; the guy who almost killed Open Carry and the guy who will make sure Constitutional Carry never sees a vote this session.

IMO groups like NAGR are great for forcing the NRA to actually support gun rights in these state fights. All the hand-wringing over OCT in Texas was just whiny babies scared to fight for our rights.
Yep it was disgusting what they did to Jonathan, who is one of the best legislators in the country. I watched this happen live and was about to come unglued:








As far as the NRA goes, they started actively lobbying for ConCarry in WV too once we got involved. Of course they sold out to the Sheriff's Association and compromised to exclude 18-21 year old adults from being able to carry without a permit.
 
Yep it was disgusting what they did to Jonathan, who is one of the best legislators in the country. I watched this happen live and was about to come unglued:



It's absolutely disgraceful - and shameful - that they would not allow a vote on his amendment, or even a vote on whether or not they should vote on it.

I expect much better voting from my representatives. I will write a letter to them, in the appropriate tone, diction, and style, that such a travesty would require.
 
From Paul Valone:

Dear Gun Rights Supporter:

Unfortunately, the operatives from the long-discredited “National Association for Gun Rights” (appropriately enough, “NAGR”) are at it again.

The culprits are Noel Fritsch and Reilly O’Neal, both “formerly” of NAGR (but likely still working on NAGR’s behalf). And their playbook -- straight from NAGR -- is not to actually pass legislation, but rather to tell lies about pro-gun legislators and organizations, branding them “not pro-gun enough.” Why? To raise money, of course.

Recently, North Carolina Gun Rights (“NCGR”, which is likely a deliberately misleading anagram of GRNC) and one of O’Neal’s other entities, “firstinfreedomdaily,” have obliquely referred to GRNC as a “fraudulent gun rights organization,” attempted to bill brand House Bill 69 for constitutional carry as “compromise carry,” and lied about veterans supposedly being denied their rights under the bill.

Meet the scammers

To give you the flavor of the two operatives involved, O’Neal, formerly a campaign manager for Greg Brannon’s US Senate bid, and also formerly a Ron Paul campaign staffer (in conjunction with NAGR, whose principals consulted for Paul), has reportedly been disavowed by Brannon.

In addition to other dubious fundraising organizations on a variety of issues here in North Carolina, O’Neal was the subject of ethics complaints for his “Defense of Liberty PAC” (“DOLPAC”) in Maine and has been caught doing predatory fundraising in Louisiana.

Then we have Mr. Fritsch. Considered by some as responsible for sinking the US Senate bid by pro-gun Mississippi state Sen. Chris McDaniel, for whom he served as communications director, Fritsch was reportedly a subject of a grand jury investigation into whether he or others paid someone to lie about vote buying by McDaniel’s opponent. Indeed, Fritsch was so “popular” in Mississippi during the debate over constitutional carry there that his own bill sponsor threatened to call capitol police on him.

To give you a feel for Fritsch’s stability, one Mississippi reporter called Fritsch’s propensity to yell at and then hang up on reporters -- later calling them back as if they were old friends -- “Sybil-like.”

But a Mississippi legislator said it best: “I think this is just a fundraising group — a shield, a sham, a ruse," Gipson said…They're doing what they've done in other states, going after the most conservative, pro-gun rights people…”

The scam in question

The most recent (among many) fundraising letter from “The Boys From NAGR” makes a number of assertions about HB 69 which range from selectively misleading to downright false.

Scam #1: “…H.B. 69 includes numerous statutes that strip law-abiding North Carolina citizens of their God-given right to keep and bear arms guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.”

Truth: HB 69 does not create any new restrictions. In order to be narrowly crafted (and more likely passed into law), the new Section 54C mirrors language in our existing concealed handgun statute, differing only in that people would no longer need permits. Meanwhile, GRNC has drafted language and recruited sponsors to remove many restrictions in OTHER legislation.

Scam #2: “…under H.B. 69, a veteran who gets a divorce or is found guilty of committing adultery could be DENIED their right to carry in North Carolina…”

Truth: Nice try, fellas, but wrong again. Under NC’s original concealed handgun statute, flawed language bars applicants who were discharged from the military under “other than honorable” conditions. GRNC has been the ONLY organization involved in trying to get that language changed as recently as the last session of the legislature, and will do so again this year. However, HB 69 does NOT MIRROR THIS LANGUAGE, instead applying only to people who were DISHONORABLY discharged, a category which does not include adultery or other minor offenses, but instead only serious crimes subject to courts martial.

Scam #3: The Boys from NAGR intimate that a new, better constitutional carry bill will be introduced by Rep. Chris Millis at their behest.

Truth: As Hertz commercials put it, “Not exactly.” While Rep. Millis (R-Onslow, Pender, GRNC ****) does plan to introduce legislation (which, presuming it is well crafted, GRNC will support), according to Millis, “The Boys from NAGR” had nothing to do with it. If Millis introduces a good bill, what will likely happen is that bits and pieces of both bills will be melded into a committee substitute which is acceptable to enough parties to secure passage. (Expect to hear lots of Fritsch-like wailing when that happens.)

The scammers are spammers: Don’t sign petition!

Straight out of the NAGR playbook (and following what they’ve done in Mississippi and elsewhere), the single and only thing The Boys from NAGR are doing is to push a “petition” for which they claim a ridiculously inflated number of signatures.

But here is their dirty little secret: While we may disagree on the effectiveness of petitions as political weapons (many argue they are too easily ignored), a petition makes an excellent ruse for predatory fundraising.

You see, the scammers are also spammers. If you sign their petition, you will receive endless spam dunning you for money. And if The Boys from NAGR are anything like the folks who trained them, the “thanks” you receive for signing or contributing will likely be to have your email sold to other spammers.

What you can do to pass constitutional carry

Our problem is that HB 69 is currently assigned to the NC House Judiciary I Committee, chaired by Rep. Ted Davis (R-New Hanover, GRNC *), who will likely deny it a hearing, killing it. Accordingly, we need to move the bill to the Judiciary II Committee, chaired by Rep. John Blust (R-Guilford, ***) who, thanks to your input in response to GRNC’s alert last weekend, has promised to give the bill a hearing.

To get HB 69 moved to J-2, please contact Speaker Tim Moore (R-Cleveland, ****) and Rules Chair David Lewis (R-Harnett, ***) and tell them to re-assign the bill.

GRNC: Kicking butt since 1994!

• Since 1994, only one truly “no-compromise” North Carolina gun rights organization has defended your rights;

• One organization has been primarily responsible for passing concealed carry, concealed handgun reciprocity, the purchase permit bypass, Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground, expansion of concealed carry into parks, restaurants, public assemblies and elsewhere;

• One organization has killed scores of proposed anti-gun bills;

• One organization sued Winston-Salem and forced dozens of municipalities to repeal illegal anti-gun ordinances and remove posting signs from parks and elsewhere;

• One organization forced hundreds of stores and restaurants to remove “no firearms signs”

• One NC organization has sued to overturn NC’s “state of emergency” gun ban, reinforcing your right to self protection during riots and natural disasters ...

...and only one organization can get constitutional carry passed in North Carolina.

That organization is Grass Roots North Carolina.

And unlike the poseurs, GRNC vows to put your money to use more efficiently and effectively than any other organization in defending your rights.

Armatissimi e liberissimi,


F. Paul Valone
President, Grass Roots North Carolina
Executive Director, Rights Watch International
 
These are the people whom NAGR is attacking, and whom Matt Collins is here attacking as "not pro gun enough:"

Michael Speciale
8 hrs ·
I submitted four bills today to allow the voters to clean up some NC Constitutional issues. If passed by both houses, they will be on the ballot in Nov 2018 for you to decide.
1. Remove the literacy test required to vote in Article VI section 4. This is no longer done and was put in the constitution by democrats during the jim crow era to keep blacks from voting. It needs to be removed.
2. Remove the reconstruction era mandate forever prohibiting secession in Article I section 4. This is not a bill to secede.
3. Remove the authority of the General Assembly to regulate concealed carry at the end of Article I section 30. This is necessary for constitutional carry in NC.
4. Remove the words '...and government...' from Article I section 5. It currently reads "Every citizen of this state owes paramount allegiance to the Constitution and government of the United States...". We DO NOT owe the government our allegiance, we owe our country and constitution our allegiance. This needs to be corrected.

http://ncleg.net/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2017&BillID=H145

A BILL TO BE ENTITLED
AN ACT TO REPEAL THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION ALLOWING THE REGULATION OF CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON.

The General Assembly of North Carolina enacts:

SECTION 1. Section 30 of Article I of the North Carolina Constitution reads as rewritten:

"Sec. 30. Militia and the right to bear arms.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice."

SECTION 2. The amendment set out in Section 1 of this act shall be submitted to the qualified voters of the State at a statewide election to be conducted in November of 2018, which election shall be conducted under the laws then governing elections in the State. The question to be used in the voting systems and ballots shall be:

"[ ] FOR [ ] AGAINST
A constitutional amendment to repeal the provision which provides that the General Assembly may prohibit the practice of carrying concealed weapons."

SECTION 3. If a majority of votes cast on the question are in favor of the amendment set out in Section 1 of this act, the State Board of Elections shall certify the amendment to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State shall enroll the amendment so certified among the permanent records of that office. The amendment set out in Section 1 of this act becomes effective upon certification.

SECTION 4. This act is effective when it becomes law.
 
A BILL TO BE ENTITLED
AN ACT TO REPEAL THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION ALLOWING THE REGULATION OF CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON.

I like that idea.
Several states had prohibition to concealed carry written n their State Constitution.
While Open Carry was common and acceptable,,, concealing a weapon was considered dishonest. and was prohibited.

I am personally in favor of open carry. (were I allowed) but it should be wholly up to the individual..

and NONE of the "states" business.
 
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