N.Y. Gov. Cuomo Enacts $15 Hourly Fast Food Minimum Wage

[tod evans]

I don't think you get the affects minimum wage actually has.

If you could just give everyone a raise by passing a law requiring that they be paid more, and this would have no affects on the rate of employment, then all the neighboring states, and every other state for that matter, ought to just follow suit and pass laws requiring that everyone work for whatever arbitrarily high wage we want.

But that's not what happens. What these laws actually do is ban all the jobs that produce less value than the minimum wage. Any job that isn't worth that amount of pay just won't be allowed, and those people will not get raises, they'll be out of work.

Yup, doesn't matter if the employer can afford to pay more, it's all about whether or not it's worth it to the person writing the check.

Were it me standing under a mandate to pay $15.00hr for burger flippers I'd shut the doors and open elsewhere unless my bottom line also doubled...

 

[TheNewYorker]

McDoubles in NY used to be $1 each, now they jacked the price up last week to $1.89.

Used to be a quick, frugal albeit unhealthy way to feed kids and all their friends. 10 burgers for $10 was a steal. Or 50 for $50 when they had a lot of friends over.

I know I'm complaining over 89 cents but that's a huge increase in price %

 

[Ronin Truth]

I don't think you get the affects minimum wage actually has.

If you could just give everyone a raise by passing a law requiring that they be paid more, and this would have no affects on the rate of employment, then all the neighboring states, and every other state for that matter, ought to just follow suit and pass laws requiring that everyone work for whatever arbitrarily high wage we want.

But that's not what happens. What these laws actually do is ban all the jobs that produce less value than the minimum wage. Any job that isn't worth that amount of pay just won't be allowed, and those people will not get raises, they'll be out of work.

I "get it" just fine, and have for over 40 years now.

"Everyone" is not getting the raise. Just the fast food workers statewide. Will that market in the state be destroyed? Possibly.

"Everything government touches turns to crap." -- Ringo Starr

 

[erowe1]

"Everyone" is not getting the raise. Just the fast food workers statewide.

No. You still don't get it. The fast food workers statewide aren't getting raises. They're getting their jobs outlawed. Their pay will not get raised to $15/hr, but cut to $0/hr.

Meanwhile, the fast food restaurants in neighboring states will benefit from the loss experienced by NY's fast food restaurants, and their demand for employees will go up; most likely, so will their pay rates.

 

[parocks]

Yes. It's more government intervention. It affects more people and it affects them in greater degrees.

If, in an unregulated market there would be 100,000 people working for below $7.25/hr. and 1,000,000 people working for below $15/hr., then having a minimum wage of $7.25/hr. bans 100,000 jobs, and having a minimum wage of $15/hr. bans 1,000,000 jobs.

It's the same amount of government intervention.

We agree on the general idea that people will buy less of things that cost more.

 

[erowe1]

It's the same amount of government intervention.

I can't fathom what kind of twisted reasoning leads you to say this.

Is outlawing the sale of all milk the same amount of government intervention as outlawing the sale of only some milk?

 

[parocks]

On the other hand, any restaurants that don't meet whatever the legal criteria of "fast food" are, will benefit from this, since it hurts their fast-food competitors and not them. I expect that all the restaurants that are counted as "fast food" are now desperate for changes they can make that will allow them to say they aren't, so that they can get around this.

I believe that it's chains of 25 or more. But yup.

 

[erowe1]

I believe that it's chains of 25 or more. But yup.

So things like Ruby Tuesdays and Red Lobster would count as fast food?

 

[parocks]

Half is better than nothing, which is what they'll make staying in NY.

People will stop eating?

More money will be in the pockets of fast food workers in NY.

Upstate might have some problems depending on what the national minimum wage is in 2022. By 2022, the national minimum wage could be $15.

The minimum wage went from $.25 in 1938 to $3.35 in 1981 to $7.25 today. That's 10x in 43 years. 5x in 40 years is still a smaller rate of growth.

 

[parocks]

Yup, doesn't matter if the employer can afford to pay more, it's all about whether or not it's worth it to the person writing the check.

Were it me standing under a mandate to pay $15.00hr for burger flippers I'd shut the doors and open elsewhere unless my bottom line also doubled...

Labor costs are one of many costs. McDonalds is still going to keep the stores open, for the most part.

 

[parocks]

So things like Ruby Tuesdays and Red Lobster would count as fast food?

I don't know that. I just know that 25+ chains are part of it. Smaller chains, no. Don't know what exactly counts as fast food.

 

[parocks]

I can't fathom what kind of twisted reasoning leads you to say this.

Is outlawing the sale of all milk the same amount of government intervention as outlawing the sale of only some milk?

It's a law, it's a number. I'm talking in general about the minimum wage. The same amount of government intervention could have different effects as to the specifics.

$7.25 minimum wage or $15 minimum wage is the same amount of government intervention.

 

[parocks]

No. You still don't get it. The fast food workers statewide aren't getting raises. They're getting their jobs outlawed. Their pay will not get raised to $15/hr, but cut to $0/hr.

Meanwhile, the fast food restaurants in neighboring states will benefit from the loss experienced by NY's fast food restaurants, and their demand for employees will go up; most likely, so will their pay rates.

Their pay will be raised to $15/hr. In some cases, they'll lose their jobs.

But try to remember. Do we have minimum wages now? Are there no minimum wage jobs? Has the minimum wage been going up periodically for the last 70+ years?
Are there still jobs?

It will be interesting to see what happens on the ground. But neither one of us can guess with any certainly what will happen at the small town McDonalds in Elmira, NY in 2022. I'd assume that the prices would go up a little. Just like the prices of everything go up all the time, for many different reasons.

 

[erowe1]

Their pay will be raised to $15/hr. In some cases, they'll lose their jobs.

But try to remember. Do we have minimum wages now? Are there no minimum wage jobs? Has the minimum wage been going up periodically for the last 70+ years?
Are there still jobs?

It will be interesting to see what happens on the ground. But neither one of us can guess with any certainly what will happen at the small town McDonalds in Elmira, NY in 2022. I'd assume that the prices would go up a little. Just like the prices of everything go up all the time, for many different reasons.

Those whose pay will go up to $15/hr. would have been able to get that pay rate without this law. Those whose productivity does not warrant paying them this much will lose their jobs.

Prices for some things will go up. Prices for other things will go down. The net effect of this on all prices will be zero, since it will not change the money supply.

The most important effect will be that employment will be lower than it would be without the minimum wage increase.

Yes. There is a minimum wage now, it's lower than $15/hr. The higher it gets the greater its negative impact, the lower it gets the less its negative impact.

 

[erowe1]

It's a law, it's a number. I'm talking in general about the minimum wage. The same amount of government intervention could have different effects as to the specifics.

$7.25 minimum wage or $15 minimum wage is the same amount of government intervention.

No. A $15/hr. minimum wage is more government intervention than a $7.25/hr. minimum wage. The higher the minimum wage is, the greater the government intervention is.

Banning a million peoples' jobs is more government intervention than banning a thousand peoples' jobs.

 

[parocks]

No. A $15/hr. minimum wage is more government intervention than a $7.25/hr. minimum wage. The higher the minimum wage is, the greater the government intervention is.

Banning a million peoples' jobs is more government intervention than banning a thousand peoples' jobs.

No. Same intervention, different effect.

 

[erowe1]

No. Same intervention, different effect.

You just keep repeating this, but it's obviously not true. The reason the effect is different is because the intervention is different. You might as well say that all governments that have ever existed have intervened the same amount and only differed in their effects.

 

[parocks]

Those whose pay will go up to $15/hr. would have been able to get that pay rate without this law. Those whose productivity does not warrant paying them this much will lose their jobs.

Prices for some things will go up. Prices for other things will go down. The net effect of this on all prices will be zero, since it will not change the money supply.

The most important effect will be that employment will be lower than it would be without the minimum wage increase.

Yes. There is a minimum wage now, it's lower than $15/hr. The higher it gets the greater its negative impact, the lower it gets the less its negative impact.

We don't live in a free market and we (us, you and me) never have.

You can't use free market rules and apply them to oligopolies.

This - "Those whose pay will go up to $15/hr. would have been able to get that pay rate without this law." is wrong.

You have to know that it's wrong.

You have to know that McDonalds is still here. There have been many, many minimum wage hikes, and yet, McDonalds is still there.

McDonalds will pay the minimum wage, unless there's a shortage of labor. And there typically isn't. If you miss the first day of Econ 101 where they tell you that the rules that they're going to be using for the next 4 years haven't applied to the real world in at least 100 years, you'll end up saying things that you really should know aren't true.

What you're saying might be solid economics, but it isn't true today. These aren't the days of Adam Smith and John Marshall and free markets. McDonalds charges whatever it wants, not what it costs to make. In classical economics, the price of a good is the cost to make the good. And we all know that's not true in the real world of 2015, and it's never been true in our lifetimes. It might be true for wheat farmers, but it really isn't true for anyone else.

I'll agree that a hike in the minimum wage will tend to decrease employment. I don't agree that more money in the hands of the fast food workers is a negative impact.

We live in a fkd up world right now. What appears as total garbage is somehow modified in ways to make things worse. The government takes 1/3d of the money. That completely destroys any invisible hand that would be working. People don't have money to give to other people. Government took it. If everybody gets to keep their money, the invisible hand works, people pass the money around, and everything works out ok. When government takes so much, all the locals don't have the money to make that system work. So, the government steps in with minimum wage and welfare.

 

[parocks]

You just keep repeating this, but it's obviously not true. The reason the effect is different is because the intervention is different. You might as well say that all governments that have ever existed have intervened the same amount and only differed in their effects.

You keep on repeating what you keep repeating, too.

One law, different numbers.

New law on new topic, additional intervention.

Different words. Intervention vs effect or impact.

I'll grant effect and impact, but not intervention. It is not additional governmental intervention. Since 1938, the Fed Government has had a minimum wage.

What you want to do, wrongly, is argue that a raise in the minimum wage is additional government intervention, because of your ideology. It isn't additional government intervention. It's the same governmental intervention.

 

[erowe1]

You keep on repeating what you keep repeating, too.

One law, different numbers.

New law on new topic, additional intervention.

Different words. Intervention vs effect or impact.

I'll grant effect and impact, but not intervention. It is not additional governmental intervention. Since 1938, the Fed Government has had a minimum wage.

What you want to do, wrongly, is argue that a raise in the minimum wage is additional government intervention, because of your ideology. It isn't additional government intervention. It's the same governmental intervention.

Those different numbers are literally the different amounts of intervention. That is the whole point in their being different. Raising the minimum wage from $7.25/hr. to $15/hr. is increasing the amount of intervention just like raising it from $0/hr. to $7.25/hr. would.

Hiking tax rates increases government intervention.

Raising the drinking age increases government intervention.

All these numbers aren't just abstractions. They're measurements of real-world government intervention.