myths about the federal reserve

Neithercorp

I never mentioned or seen Money Masters. I have no opinion on it and if it is in one of his articles I will check it out. I have read most of his articles but did not come across it.
Brandon Smith's articles are well written and include many posts from daily news reports from AP, Reuters and other main stream sources. It is his opinion of world events with evidence from sources from different news outlets around the world which he includes with links in his articles. He gives his opinion for people to survive these tough times ahead. You are dishonest to discredit someone when you barely read any of his work.
 
I never mentioned or seen Money Masters. I have no opinion on it and if it is in one of his articles I will check it out. I have read most of his articles but did not come across it.
Brandon Smith's articles are well written and include many posts from daily news reports from AP, Reuters and other main stream sources. It is his opinion of world events with evidence from sources from different news outlets around the world which he includes with links in his articles. He gives his opinion for people to survive these tough times ahead. You are dishonest to discredit someone when you barely read any of his work.

giordano bruno is another gloom and doom guy, people like him have an ulterior motive



when the time comes and their predictions don't occur, they always have an excuse
 
How would contracts be written and enforced in a deflationary environment? I have a hard time understanding how even a simple loan would work. Here’s an example: you agree to loan me $1000 at 2% interest for a year, under the current 2% inflationary system we agree that I’ll pay you back $1040. Under a 2% deflationary system, I would only have to pay you back $1000 to pay for the interest, at which point, you’d have no incentive to make the deal. A deflationary system would artificially raise the interest rate of borrowing money, destroying potential economic growth in the process.

Assuming that I’m missing something and that contracts could be written in a way to fully adjust for deflation, you would still have the problem of millions of present contracts which assume inflation and cannot be re-written without heavy government involvement. If you were to lock into a 25yr mortgage tomorrow and the Fed were to adopt a deflationary policy next year, you’d be screwed into making higher payments than you agreed to for 24 years or lose all your equity by foreclosing. This situation would be replicated for millions and homeowners and small businesses and its effects would have lasting destructive effects on the economy and would ultimately result in a substantial transfer of wealth from the middle class to the financial sector.

I agree that rewriting current contracts would be quite a problem, but this is always the case when you move from a public/socialized/government owned/controlled type system to a private one; there will always be issues, hiccups, and problems along the way; sure, the adjustment period would take a while, but that's just the way things are--I don't really see this as a barrier to not removing the Fed from society--it's just something that has to be done.

In any event, contracts would be no different under deflation as they would be under inflation; if you have a $1000 loan (for 1 year) with 2% annual inflation with a 2% interest rate, then the bank won't make any money on said loan---that said, under our current system, banks will take into account what the inflation rate is likely to be and factor that into the interest paid...likewise, with inflation, it would be the same way, only they'd be making an opposite assumption in terms of money's value.



If your point is about the specific actions of the Fed, and not the inherent disruptions of an inflationary system, then your argument is about reforming it, not abolishing it.

The only reform I'd ever advocate for the Fed is that it would merely be a computer that increases the money supply by 3% annually; no funds rate, no interest payed on Fed deposits, nothing--just a computer.

That said, I'd only support this in the near term; as it's still a form of price fixing and will inevitably still cause a boom-bust cycle
 
Made me laugh!

neimo

Okay I promise I am done wading in here, Glenn Beck lol. First you compare Neithercorps to: Economic terrorists, miscreants and Gold salesmen and then hit me with Money Masters which had nothing to do with it and now Glenn Beck and the dreaded doom and gloomers. I never watch Glenn Beck by the way because I do not watch Fox News. Which comes back to....you did not read much of anything from Neithercorps. You are too much my friend I will just say that we just do not agree on anything an leave it at that. You believe your information is the only truth, and from the links through out this thread that you posted I think that you are the one with the propaganda not me. Of course you will come back with the ulterior motive in the next post. You sure you do not work for the Federal Reserve?

Oh well stalemate bud.

Anyway good luck.

Done.
 
neimo

Okay I promise I am done wading in here, Glenn Beck lol. First you compare Neithercorps to: Economic terrorists, miscreants and Gold salesmen and then hit me with Money Masters which had nothing to do with it and now Glenn Beck and the dreaded doom and gloomers. I never watch Glenn Beck by the way because I do not watch Fox News. Which comes back to....you did not read much of anything from Neithercorps. You are too much my friend I will just say that we just do not agree on anything an leave it at that. You believe your information is the only truth, and from the links through out this thread that you posted I think that you are the one with the propaganda not me. Of course you will come back with the ulterior motive in the next post. You sure you do not work for the Federal Reserve?

Oh well stalemate bud.

Anyway good luck.

Done.

it's gerald celente and i read a fair number of the articles, but from your reply, it seems that you didn't watch any of the two and a half minute video
 
Isnt that a false assumption? (Edit) fixed number of dollars in the economy (/edit)

If you want to speculate about the dynamics of a deflationary monetary system, I'd say it would be a fair assumption to make. Do you have another scenario in mind ?

Watch what you ask for. When it does collapse and it will, no one will escape from it. I talked with a old guy about the depression and what it was like. One thing he said to me that sticks in my mind is: the people today would end up eating each other as they don't have the survival skills of those in the 1930's

When we do get the collapse we will see the same people who caused it come out with how they will solve it. Many people will be scared and maybe hungry and will see them as the only hope. Just like when we are at war our Liberties get taken and I think even more may be taken with a collapse..

Collapse will be no bed of roses don't fool yourself it will be hard times for everyone.

How and why would such a collapse occur? Did I miss a memo about a incoming asteroid or something ?

Btw, the quote in your sig is attributed the the wrong person. Gerald Ford was the first one to say it, not Jefferson.
 
I agree that rewriting current contracts would be quite a problem, but this is always the case when you move from a public/socialized/government owned/controlled type system to a private one; there will always be issues, hiccups, and problems along the way; sure, the adjustment period would take a while, but that's just the way things are--I don't really see this as a barrier to not removing the Fed from society--it's just something that has to be done.

How would you suggest the government handle the transition? Would you support forcefully adjusting the nominal value of all contracts by decree or would you rather let borrowers incur huge losses through no fault of their own? Also, how would you suggest the government deal with its foreign debt? It has issued billions of dollars’ worth of long-term Treasury bonds, and having to make larger than formerly agreed upon payments is going to exasperate our already dire debt problem.

I disagree that this transition has to be done if its high costs can’t be justified in a concise, quantifiable way. Throwing ourselves head first in a depression in order to trade the negative effects of stable inflation for the negative effects of stable deflation seems like an example of the cure being worse than the disease to me.

In any event, contracts would be no different under deflation as they would be under inflation; if you have a $1000 loan (for 1 year) with 2% annual inflation with a 2% interest rate, then the bank won't make any money on said loan---that said, under our current system, banks will take into account what the inflation rate is likely to be and factor that into the interest paid...likewise, with inflation, it would be the same way, only they'd be making an opposite assumption in terms of money's value.

The point of my example was to illustrate that a deflationary environment would artificially raise the costs of borrowing money and thus reduce investment and economic growth. In both scenarios, the lender gets the same amount of purchasing power back; however under the deflationary scenario, he can make the same gains by keeping his money in the bank and not have to take any risk. This essentially raises the price of borrowing money in absolute terms.

The only reform I'd ever advocate for the Fed is that it would merely be a computer that increases the money supply by 3% annually; no funds rate, no interest payed on Fed deposits, nothing--just a computer.

I find this to be an interesting idea; Milton Friedman had advocated for a similar system, although I believe that empirical work has shown that the proposal does have some problems. I’d prefer a New Zealand type system myself, but I find the computer idea to be much more sensible than most proposals around here.

That said, I'd only support this in the near term; as it's still a form of price fixing and will inevitably still cause a boom-bust cycle

Unless you can solve the problems of such a transition, I’m afraid that sentiment is an example of the perfect being the enemy of the good.
 
If you want to speculate about the dynamics of a deflationary monetary system, I'd say it would be a fair assumption to make. Do you have another scenario in mind ?

Sorry I wasn't more clear the first time. The way you laid it out, with a fixed amount of money in circulation, then what you're saying is right.

What I meant is that whatever serves as money, be it metal coins, cigarettes or flower petals people are going to literally make money. They will find new sources of metal to coin, they will roll cigarettes, they will grow more flowers.

The point being that money is in the control of the people generally and not controlled by a cartel.
 
Sorry I wasn't more clear the first time. The way you laid it out, with a fixed amount of money in circulation, then what you're saying is right.

What I meant is that whatever serves as money, be it metal coins, cigarettes or flower petals people are going to literally make money. They will find new sources of metal to coin, they will roll cigarettes, they will grow more flowers.

The point being that money is in the control of the people generally and not controlled by a cartel.

First off, something like 97% of the world’s money is virtual, so short of a total collapse of the world financial system, we’re never going to go back to using physical gold coins or cigarettes to conduct transactions. There are two main options, using coupons or using fiat money. All major western economies used to operate under the gold standard a century ago and then progressively transitioned to fiat money. The main reason for this was monetary independence, the gold standard needlessly tied countries’ monetary policies together and what happened in a foreign country could trigger a depression at home. A good example of this is when France started hoarding gold in the late ‘20s; I’ll quote from Douglas Irwin’s paper on the subject:

The gold standard was a key factor behind the Great Depression, but why did it produce such an intense worldwide deflation and associated economic contraction? While the tightening of U.S. monetary policy in 1928 is often blamed for having initiated the downturn, France increased its share of world gold reserves from 7 percent to 27 percent between 1927 and 1932 and effectively sterilized most of this accumulation. This “gold hoarding” created an artificial shortage of reserves and put other countries under enormous deflationary pressure. Counterfactual simulations indicate that world prices would have increased slightly between 1929 and 1933, instead of declining calamitously, if the historical relationship between world gold reserves and world prices had continued. The results indicate that France was somewhat more to blame than the United States for the worldwide deflation of 1929-33. The deflation could have been avoided if central banks had simply maintained their 1928 cover ratios.

For those interested, the entire paper can be found here. (PDF warning)


Under fiat money, the value of a country’s currency is under its full control; which means that as long as the central bank remains independent and the people running it are competent, we shouldn’t worry about wild fluctuations in the rate of inflation. The central bank’s ability to stabilize the value of the currency is essential to promote economic growth. If you want to lend or borrow money for a period of 5 or 10 years, you don’t want to take the risk of the currency unexpectedly appreciating or depreciating.

Now that we’ve gotten all that out of the way, I can finally address your point. Why wouldn’t having separate private corporations issuing separate coupons for exchange be a good thing? Well, for a few reasons:

It would be hard to control counterfeit and fraud. There’s enough counterfeiting going on as it is right now with the full force of the law tracking those who do it, imagine how easy it would be to make fake bills in a word where there are 5 or 10 types of currencies and no central authority to verify their authenticity. You also have to account in the incentives the currency issuers have to cheat, instead of having our money being issued by a frequently audited governmental body who is appointed by our democratically elected government, we’d have our money being issued by corporations with no oversight. So unless you want an intrusive government regulatory system to control the currency issuers (which you probably don’t if you want this system), you always run the risk of a CEO printing a trillion Walmart dollars for his own salary.

There would be a major coordination problem between multiple currencies as most people don’t want to have multiple types of dollars and tens of credit cards in their wallets and retailers won’t want to have to use multiple prices, scanners and cash registers, etc. Having one currency has huge benefits due to economies of scale.

The value of a commodity backed currency can never be as stable as the value of centrally-managed fiat money because of potential external shocks. If I borrow $1000 worth of money for one year in gold-backed coupons and something like a terrorist attack or a mine collapse occurs, I might be forced to pay more back than I agreed to and as such will be less eager to make the deal. The biggest weakness of paper value is also its greatest strength; it has no intrinsic value, so we can always control its price.

You might also want to look at Jordan’s amusing post for another good reason why competing currencies would be a silly idea.

So to finally answer your question, I assumed a fixed number of dollars in the economy because I wanted to isolate the issue to deflation and not have to deal with intricacies of decentralized money creation.
 
...All major western economies used to operate under the gold standard a century ago and then progressively transitioned to fiat money. The main reason for this was monetary independence, the gold standard needlessly tied countries’ monetary policies together and what happened in a foreign country could trigger a depression at home...

How is this substantially different than what we have now? What prevents a nation from hoarding dollars instead of gold? Any fiat based nation can print tons of their currency and purchase dollars. In my mind having fiat currency does not sufficiently protect us from another nation wrecking havoc. Nor does it sufficiently isolate one nation's economy from another. I'd much rather take my chances with competing currencies than with ANY kind of central planning. If one nation decides they want to hoard gold a free society may choose another currency for a time. I'm okay with that. I'm definitely not an expert here. I appreciate your thoughtful responses in this thread. As long as dujac and his doppelganger neumoljiv are not posting replies, I'm learning something.
 
How is this substantially different than what we have now? What prevents a nation from hoarding dollars instead of gold? Any fiat based nation can print tons of their currency and purchase dollars. In my mind having fiat currency does not sufficiently protect us from another nation wrecking havoc. Nor does it sufficiently isolate one nation's economy from another. I'd much rather take my chances with competing currencies than with ANY kind of central planning. If one nation decides they want to hoard gold a free society may choose another currency for a time. I'm okay with that. I'm definitely not an expert here. I appreciate your thoughtful responses in this thread. As long as dujac and his doppelganger neumoljiv are not posting replies, I'm learning something.

Well, not really because the exchange rate between currencies is flexible. If the Fed were to print a trillion dollars to buy Euros, then the Euro would appreciate against the dollar. The early 20th century gold standard lacked this balancing mechanism.
 
Well, not really because the exchange rate between currencies is flexible. If the Fed were to print a trillion dollars to buy Euros, then the Euro would appreciate against the dollar. The early 20th century gold standard lacked this balancing mechanism.

I'm sure you're right but my main point was that central banks still have the power to wreck havoc on an economy. A fiat standard does not seem any safer than non-fiat. What prevents a central planner from making huge mistakes with fiat? Apparently nothing. I think history shows us more often than not centralizing power is a threat to liberty. When flawed humans are in charge of where the money flows, it will eventually flow to the flawed humans in charge.
 
I'm sure you're right but my main point was that central banks still have the power to wreck havoc on an economy. A fiat standard does not seem any safer than non-fiat. What prevents a central planner from making huge mistakes with fiat? Apparently nothing. I think history shows us more often than not centralizing power is a threat to liberty. When flawed humans are in charge of where the money flows, it will eventually flow to the flawed humans in charge.

Of course they do, but that’s a risk you have to take with all forms of central power. The military has also been frequently misused throughout history, but I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to disband national defense.

The choice you have to make is whether you’d rather take the risks of the bad leadership and insufficient oversight of central planners or accept the high coordination costs of emergent currencies.

Since the Fed has done a reasonably good job of keeping inflation stable over the past 30 years and the inherent problems of decentralized currencies haven’t been solved yet, I’m inclined to believe that a radical change away from the dollar won’t accomplish a positive result.

Of course I might be wrong and anyone who disagrees with me is free to try to refute the objections I raised against competing currencies in this previous post.
 
Of course they do, but that’s a risk you have to take with all forms of central power. The military has also been frequently misused throughout history, but I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to disband national defense.

Legal tender laws violate freedom of contract. Thus, they shouldn't exist. Period.
 
The military has also been frequently misused throughout history, but I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to disband national defense.

Yes it is. In fact the centralization of military affairs today is a fine example of why it shouldn't exist in its current form.

Since the Fed has done a reasonably good job of keeping inflation stable over the past 30 years...


LoLoLoLoL
 
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Of course they do, but that’s a risk you have to take with all forms of central power. The military has also been frequently misused throughout history, but I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to disband national defense.
But it might be a good enough reason to restructure the military.

The choice you have to make is whether you’d rather take the risks of the bad leadership and insufficient oversight of central planners or accept the high coordination costs of emergent currencies.
I would choose the latter. However I'm afraid the choice will be made for us if the whole fiat system collapses.

Since the Fed has done a reasonably good job of keeping inflation stable over the past 30 years and the inherent problems of decentralized currencies haven’t been solved yet...
The Fed has done a good job of keeping a stable supply of money flowing away from the producers/savers into the pockets of spenders/bankers. If that's the kind of stability you want then you've got it.

I’m inclined to believe that a radical change away from the dollar won’t accomplish a positive result.
I agree, moving the USA off of the Federal Reserve Note will cause deep hurting. No easy way out now. Again, we might not have a choice at some point if things continue going the way they are. Meth addicts have similar dilemmas.

...I might be wrong and anyone who disagrees with me is free to try to refute the objections I raised against competing currencies in this previous post.

And I may be as well. I still need to do some reading on pros/cons of competing currencies. I know this topic has been discussed in much detail here on the RP forums. That's probably the only reason you haven't been answered point for point already.
 
Legal tender laws violate freedom of contract. Thus, they shouldn't exist. Period.

If you’re going to make ideological arguments to address utilitarian concerns, you might as well say that the state shouldn’t exist because all taxation is theft.

Yes it is. In fact the centralization of military affairs today is a fine example of why it shouldn't exist in its current form.




LoLoLoLoL

us20cpi20inflation20197.jpg


But it might be a good enough reason to restructure the military.


I would choose the latter. However I'm afraid the choice will be made for us if the whole fiat system collapses.


The Fed has done a good job of keeping a stable supply of money flowing away from the producers/savers into the pockets of spenders/bankers. If that's the kind of stability you want then you've got it.


I agree, moving the USA off of the Federal Reserve Note will cause deep hurting. No easy way out now. Again, we might not have a choice at some point if things continue going the way they are. Meth addicts have similar dilemmas.



And I may be as well. I still need to do some reading on pros/cons of competing currencies. I know this topic has been discussed in much detail here on the RP forums. That's probably the only reason you haven't been answered point for point already.

Your post seems to rely on the assumption that we're on the verge of a financial abyss. What do you base this on ?
 
If you’re going to make ideological arguments to address utilitarian concerns, you might as well say that the state shouldn’t exist because all taxation is theft.

You want to use the guns and violence of the state to interfere between two people making a contract. I oppose to that and you call it "an ideological argument". You're an authoritarian. If any nut uses guns to attempt against your life of liberty, you have no bases for criticizing him, as he is just doing the same thing you defend.
 
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snip~
Since the Fed has done a reasonably good job of keeping inflation stable over the past 30 years and the inherent problems of decentralized currencies haven’t been solved yet, I’m inclined to believe that a radical change away from the dollar won’t accomplish a positive result.
~snip
DollarsRequiredtoEqualone1913Dollar.gif

Source: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

If you mean stable as in steadily rising, I guess you are correct.
 
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DollarsRequiredtoEqualone1913Dollar.gif

Source: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl

If you mean stable as in steadily rising, I guess you are correct.

From a previous post:

c52c2800pxushistoricali.png


For all intents and purposes, the value of a currency over 50 or 100 years doesn't matter, no one keeps their money in their mattresses anymore and prices and interest rates adjust to the inflation rate. What really matters is the stability of its short-term value, and the data show that the Fed has done a good job of stabilizing it.
 
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