My relatives make 20k a year, and live better lifestyles than me making 100k

[onlyrp]

So what. Only people who are ignorant of economics, business practices, and most importantly entrepreneurship think that arbitrary time periods mean anything. How much money did you make yesterday? Should we determine income tax brackets on a daily basis? So if you make $500 one day you're considered "rich" even though you may make nothing for the next few months?

You're out of your league in this discussion. Goodbye.

Tax rates were not designed for people who make $200,000 or $200,000,000 one year, and nothing afterwards. They're designed for normal people who make income regularly year by year. It's also not meant to screw people over for making $500 a day or find a diamond ring in the trash can. So the fact you bring up bizarre example to make your point doesn't help you.

 

[onlyrp]

Of course the numbers aren't accurate. But there's a reality that's somewhere in between, or we wouldn't be talking about a bloated welfare state that rewards people for not working, not marrying, and having children. The more important issue is not whether these guys have all their details right, but rather just how bad is the picture they tried to describe?

In other words, how could they have best described it?

They don't have details right. They can't describe something for what it is not.
I grant you there are certain incentives for not being married, but you are never paid to have children. That's to say, you don't "gain" anything in net money by having children, assuming it your labor and time for caring for your child is free. Welfare state only awards people for not working if they are extremely frugal and are willing to live on minimal housing and minimal food. If you want the lifestyle of welfare recipients, check out where they live. You can move in their neighborhood and your expenses will be about $1000 a month, that means if you make just barely $1000 a month, you might be taxed below it. But if you make anywhere above $2000 a month, you can have the welfare state lifestyle and a lot more cash for entertainment.

The picture isn't bad at all, because the person who wrote the article doesn't know what he's talking about. He's never met a person on welfare, or making minimum wage. Or else he'd NEVER think they are better off by any means than a person making $60,000. I keep repeating this line, but if you are better off making a lower wage, voluntarily ask for a cut. Your boss saves money, you make money, everybody wins (except the taxpayer, but that's not your problem).

If a person making $60,000 or $100,000 is worse off than one making less than $20,000, he's made different and probably poor choices financially.

 

[tttppp]

And if you lived on your own, the actual difference in cost is rent + utilities?

Food would cost more because I would have to get all my food myself. Gas would cost more, and there would be car expenses.

 

[tttar]

They don't have details right. They can't describe something for what it is not.
I grant you there are certain incentives for not being married, but you are never paid to have children. That's to say, you don't "gain" anything in net money by having children, assuming it your labor and time for caring for your child is free. Welfare state only awards people for not working if they are extremely frugal and are willing to live on minimal housing and minimal food. If you want the lifestyle of welfare recipients, check out where they live. You can move in their neighborhood and your expenses will be about $1000 a month, that means if you make just barely $1000 a month, you might be taxed below it. But if you make anywhere above $2000 a month, you can have the welfare state lifestyle and a lot more cash for entertainment.

The picture isn't bad at all, because the person who wrote the article doesn't know what he's talking about. He's never met a person on welfare, or making minimum wage. Or else he'd NEVER think they are better off by any means than a person making $60,000. I keep repeating this line, but if you are better off making a lower wage, voluntarily ask for a cut. Your boss saves money, you make money, everybody wins (except the taxpayer, but that's not your problem).

If a person making $60,000 or $100,000 is worse off than one making less than $20,000, he's made different and probably poor choices financially.

Then there's the issue of not having to spend 60% of your waking hours working, going to work, thinking about work, etc. But we need a lot more detail on this. Everyone I've known who works around homeless people doesn't tell me that they're desperately trying to acquire job skills. They seem pretty comfortable that way.

I wouldn't want the lifestyle either, but if I woke up with amnesia and faced having to exert myself all over again to get to where I am, I'm not sure if I'd see much point to it, but in a healthy society there had better be this incentive!

 

[onlyrp]

Then there's the issue of not having to spend 60% of your waking hours working, going to work, thinking about work, etc. But we need a lot more detail on this. Everyone I've known who works around homeless people doesn't tell me that they're desperately trying to acquire job skills. They seem pretty comfortable that way.

I wouldn't want the lifestyle either, but if I woke up with amnesia and faced having to exert myself all over again to get to where I am, I'm not sure if I'd see much point to it, but in a healthy society there had better be this incentive!

they probably are comfortable that way, or learned to not hate it. If you don't want their lifestyle, THAT is your incentive, because NOT having work and money WILL give you their lifestyle, or worse. Nobody owes you incentives, you make your own choices. I don't think "in a nice healthy society", this is life, there are different countries, but there are not different times you can travel to, so learn to deal with it.

 

[tttar]

they probably are comfortable that way, or learned to not hate it. If you don't want their lifestyle, THAT is your incentive, because NOT having work and money WILL give you their lifestyle, or worse. Nobody owes you incentives, you make your own choices. I don't think "in a nice healthy society", this is life, there are different countries, but there are not different times you can travel to, so learn to deal with it.

The point is that other people's incentives are also our problem, in a society that holds us financially liable for them.

 

[LBennett76]

I work 45 hours a week to make $20k. I don't even live in the ghetto. I live on a nice quiet street in a nice little house I bought from an 80 year old woman. Deals are out there if you look for them. I had a decent enough credit score that I brought up after digging myself out of debt. Where I live 400k houses are where the doctors and lawyers live.
I just wonder what kind of degrees you get where you owe 6 figures in loans for them, but the jobs you got from those degrees only net you 85-100k combined? That seems insane.

 

[tttppp]

I work 45 hours a week to make $20k. I don't even live in the ghetto. I live on a nice quiet street in a nice little house I bought from an 80 year old woman. Deals are out there if you look for them. I had a decent enough credit score that I brought up after digging myself out of debt. Where I live 400k houses are where the doctors and lawyers live.
I just wonder what kind of degrees you get where you owe 6 figures in loans for them, but the jobs you got from those degrees only net you 85-100k combined? That seems insane.

Most degrees are not really necessary. The professions set these bs educational requirements just for the purpose of discouraging people from entering the profession.

 

[Zippyjuan]

Getting a degree shows 1) that you can learn things and are probably smart and 2) you probably have knowledge about that field that a person without a degree does not have. If you were an employer- which would you be more likely to hire- the person with a degree or the one without? A degree does not guarantee any job but it does increase the opportunities to find a decent job. Even manufacturing is less and less for the uneducated to step into- modern factories use computer assisted equipment you need to know how to run. But Burger King and McDonalds has pictures on the buttons so it is harder to hit the wrong one. You can do those jobs without a degree.

 

[Gaddafi Duck]

This country sucks. I get so frustrated at times that I find myself wishing for a collapse in hopes that the welfare freebies go away. I just did my taxes, and had conversations--in one case, a heated argument--with family who did taxes too. Here is modern Amerika for you.

My wife and I are pulling in 85k - 100k a year. Because we "make so much," we do not qualify for government handouts. Between federal, state and local taxes, 30%+ of our income goes to government right off the bat. Then over 20% goes to student loans. We live in a nice two-bedroom apartment and can afford to eat healthy food (Whole Foods, organics, etc). But we are not rich--we have not been on vacation in almost four years; my wife has wanted/needed a new Macbook for a year but we can't afford one; we buy most of our clothes from the thrift store; we have only been out to eat two times since September; we never pay money for entertainment such as concerts, football games, movie theaters, etc.

Two different sets of relatives of mine make around 20k a year. In both families the wife does not work, only the husband. One of them makes like $10 an hour at a big-box store, the other probably makes $12ish at a hospital. One family is expecting a third child, the other the second. This means that both families get enough tax credits so that they get way more money than they pay in--one is getting almost $10k "back" this April. Whereas I have to pay my own medical bills, these guys get Medicaid; and for all I know are on food stamps and who knows what else. Both families seem to eat out as much as they want, pay for entertainment, and in the last 6 months have gone on vacation.

In short, because our government is playing Robbin Hood, we have relatives and families in my church who make a fraction of what we make, but live better lifestyles than we do.

Wow, you make ~$85,000-$100,000 pretax and you're struggling?? 20% goes to student loans? Whose fault is that?

I've put together my total expenditures for EVERYTHING, food, gas, rent, new clothes, Christmas gifts, etc. For 2011, I spent less than $24,000 in total expenditures with my girlfriend and me COMBINED. I live in a city of 250,000 people. I just bought a 46 inch LED TV a few months ago. How in the HELL are you not affording to live with $60,000 after taxes??

Life is pretty simple, people. I know inflation is out there, and it sucks, but if you HAVE to go to thrift stores (nothing wrong with them, but if you are being forced out of necessity to go there) then you're seriously doing something wrong with your money management. Absolutely no excuse.

Even with ~$10,000 in tax credits they get back, they're still making less than you and they have kids, and they're making it. How the fuck does that work? It's not the "system" because after you've gone through the "system", you still have more money than them.

It's probably because you're drinking $6 organic milk. I could easily make $40,000 and have a very nice lifestyle. After taxes and expenditures, I'd have about $10,000 per year left over at that income level. I wouldn't even need a working spouse.

Sorry, but families who struggle with two working spouses when they make nearly six-figures, I have no sympathy for. Like I said, I could support myself and my girlfriend at $30,000/year after taxes and have plenty of money (~$6,000) to go on vacation to anywhere in the world at least once a year. I don't make $30,000, but I know I could easily make it just looking at my expenditures and a $30,000 after tax income.

Remember, I spend $24k a year and I'm buying steaks, filling up a 20 mpg car, purchasing the newest electronics, and living in some of the more expensive apartments in my city. $85,000 minimum pretax?? I could retire in 15 years making that much. That'd be around $30,000-$35,000 in excess cash by my living standards...take that times 15 years and it's half a million dollars. Take that times capital appreciation and dividend income, and I wouldn't have to work.

Again, how can you possibly be struggling with that kind of income?

 

[tttar]

The guy's not looking for "sympathy." He resents studying, borrowing, and working his butt off so that others can loaf. I'm surprised we're so divided here. I don't think the welfare state has much to fear, with people bickering about so many peripheral issues.

 

[silverhandorder]

I agree with OP. Bad finances aside there is no reason why he should be paying 30k a year in taxes so that others can have foodstamps and Medicare.

 

[Gaddafi Duck]

The guy's not looking for "sympathy." He resents studying, borrowing, and working his butt off so that others can loaf. I'm surprised we're so divided here. I don't think the welfare state has much to fear, with people bickering about so many peripheral issues.

Look, the guy makes $60,000 per year AFTER taxes, and he can't afford to buy a nice $10 dollar T-shirt on clearance somewhere? REALLY?

Again, life ISN'T that hard. I see it all the time, but I'm always left wondering...how can people who have high income households ($85-100k per year is pretty damn high) struggle so much when they have more disposable income than the $20k/year folk EVEN WITH tax credits/hikes included?

I grew up with two parents that were high school teachers. We did MORE than fine. Christmases were ALWAYS incredible. My parents could not have been making more than $50,000/year, but they were supporting four kids plus themselves. Even with the tax breaks, trust me, $3,700 in a tax credit for a kid is hardly enough to offset the price of the kid.

Again, the guy makes $60,000 AFTER taxes and says he can't afford to shop anywhere but a thrift store, has 20% of his income going to student loans, and eats organic food?? Does that not seem like one of the most fucked up spending habits? Huge amount of debt mixed with a dash of thriftiness that's completely gobbled up by BS "value-added" food. That's the most random assortment of buying I've heard of. People who can afford organic food but are forced to shop at Goodwill and are drowning in debt don't have the system to blame---they're making far beyond what someone who ACTUALLY struggles does.

The guy is pretty much eating at a restaurant every meal and he wonders why he can't afford to shop at Kohl's. Go fuckin' figure. That's what happens when you use leverage and debt. I bet he wasn't struggling in college when he was borrowing all that money to piss around his refund check each semester.

 

[tttar]

Look, the guy makes $60,000 per year AFTER taxes, and he can't afford to buy a nice $10 dollar T-shirt on clearance somewhere? REALLY?

Again, life ISN'T that hard. I see it all the time, but I'm always left wondering...how can people who have high income households ($85-100k per year is pretty damn high) struggle so much when they have more disposable income than the $20k/year folk EVEN WITH tax credits/hikes included?

I grew up with two parents that were high school teachers. We did MORE than fine. Christmases were ALWAYS incredible. My parents could not have been making more than $50,000/year, but they were supporting four kids plus themselves. Even with the tax breaks, trust me, $3,700 in a tax credit for a kid is hardly enough to offset the price of the kid.

Again, the guy makes $60,000 AFTER taxes and says he can't afford to shop anywhere but a thrift store, has 20% of his income going to student loans, and eats organic food?? Does that not seem like one of the most fucked up spending habits? Huge amount of debt mixed with a dash of thriftiness that's completely gobbled up by BS "value-added" food. That's the most random assortment of buying I've heard of. People who can afford organic food but are forced to shop at Goodwill and are drowning in debt.

The guy is pretty much eating at a restaurant every meal and he wonders why he can't afford to shop at Kohl's. Go fuckin' figure. That's what happens when you use leverage and debt. I bet he wasn't struggling in college when he was borrowing all that money to piss around his refund check each semester.

I didn't get it all either (btw, he did say he does *not* eat out) , but that wasn't his main point. I will stand corrected when he comes back and emphasizes that he only came here to cry about himself.

I'd like to see the welfare goodies and incentives accurately quantified in some way. That's what this should be about.

 

[Gaddafi Duck]

I didn't get it all either (btw, he did say he does *not* eat out) , but that wasn't his main point. I will stand corrected when he comes back and emphasizes that he only came here to cry about himself.

I'd like to see the welfare goodies and incentives accurately quantified in some way. That's what this should be about.

I said "the guy is pretty much eating at a restaurant every meal". He affords the whole foods/organics, which beg a premium. $6/gallon organic milk? Yeah, that's restaurant-price shit.

It's much less about the welfare state. The guy makes a shit ton more than the average family and he can barely make ends meet. Yes, people with kids DO get tax breaks, but who was the last kid that ate $3,700 in food, entertainment, and clothes each year? That's how much you get a "break" for.

Whether he came here for sympathy or not is irrelevant. The guy makes a lot more money than most people--yet he's struggling. Again, it's due to incompetence. I proved I could live off of $30,000 per year supporting my girlfriend and I and still take a vacation to Europe once a year. The fact he's making $60k after taxes and can't buy his wife a $1000 laptop--the debate should stop right there. He makes plenty and can't manage his money. That's his problem, not the fuckin' welfare state. Government is a problem for many things, but not for your inability to think.

Inflation/taxes are a problem, but $60,000 after taxes in America, or anywhere, in the world in 2012 is a pretty damn nice income even in the world of $3.60 gasoline and $1.50 soda pop and $20 t-shirts.

 

[onlyrp]

I agree with OP. Bad finances aside there is no reason why he should be paying 30k a year in taxes so that others can have foodstamps and Medicare.

a lot is his own fault, such as not itemizing his deductions.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Sitting in a lecture hall listening to some stinky old prof with no real world experience lecture on about irrelevant stuff is archaic. It's a throwback to Roman times when you had "grammar schools" that taught Roman grammar and then "public schools" that indoctrinated the few select plebs into the Roman administrative system.

You'll learn more browsing RPF for a day or two than you will in a semester's worth of university government classes. The same can be said of things like engineering and science. The internet has changed everything and the education system hasn't caught up. It should cost 1/100 what it currently costs, but administrators, lecturers, profs, and bureaucrat's jobs are on the line, so it doesn't change.

I have to disagree. Maybe it's that bad in public schools. I wouldn't know, but I have to say the quality of education in the private college I went to was very good. It was costly, but luckily I was recruited as an athlete and got pretty much a free ride. In fact, in the last year I was there, they were paying ME.

I don't think it's fair to say it's archaic either, though. I learned a lot. I also don't get why you think the prof is "stinky" or why they wouldn't have any real world experience? I had many profs who would contradict both of those claims.

 

[Steven Douglas]

I agree with OP. Bad finances aside there is no reason why he should be paying 30k a year in taxes so that others can have foodstamps and Medicare.

The OP has basically been conscripted into involuntary servitude to nameless/faceless others from January through the middle of April. It's starting to make sense to me now why the IRS has a mid-April filing deadline.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

To me, the only "organic" food is that which is picked out of my farm garden... Anything else, I don't trust.

That's a good strategy... but what about the chemtrails??

I keed, I keed.

 

[onlyrp]

I have to disagree. Maybe it's that bad in public schools. I wouldn't know, but I have to say the quality of education in the private college I went to was very good. It was costly, but luckily I was recruited as an athlete and got pretty much a free ride. In fact, in the last year I was there, they were paying ME.

I don't think it's fair to say it's archaic either, though. I learned a lot. I also don't get why you think the prof is "stinky" or why they wouldn't have any real world experience? I had many profs who would contradict both of those claims.

exactly.

Thanks. I agree we can improve, but archaic is not a fair description.