My liberal-conservative voting dilemma

[Spanish Guy]

Sorry if it isn't the appropiate place for this thread, because is of European politics, although I've put it here as I've seen a thread about the UKIP in the same forum.

As you may know, on Sunday there will be elections in the European Union, where we choose our 751 deputees in the European Parliament. However they're far from being a election where the elector thinks on a Pan-European level, few people know that Juncker is the EPP candidate, and Schultz the socialist one, and the votings and debates are usually focused on national topics, as the abortion law or the Catalan Referendum. As, furthermore, due to the different electoral system is easier for a minor party getting a MEP than a MP (congressman) in the Spanish Legislature, I won't do it differently than most Europeans, my vote will be determined mostly by national issues.

The Spanish political scene have changed a lot since 2011 when the PP (equivalent to American GOP) won the national elections. I recognise I didn't vote for them. The ruling leadership of the PP is clearly what you Americans would call RINO's, taxese are higher than ever, and the overwhelming bureaucracy have not been reduced. The tensions inside the PP, between people linked to former Prime Minister José María Aznar, or former Governor of Madrid Esperanza Aguirre (more pro free-market and Atlantist than the current party) are important, and which is more strange in a country of Spain where parties try to show themselves as homogenous blocs, notorious for the general public. Finally in December the PP suffered a split, when a new party, VOX, was created and who have been supported by members of the most conservative wing of the PP. The reasons given was what was considered a soft antiterrorist policy of the Spanish government, high taxes and bureaucracy.

I share some views with the new party. Bureaucracy in Spain is huge, with several Administrations with the same functions, and the economic policies of the current government are horrible and counterproductive, as they're not fighting for finishing with the power of the trusts or diminishing the regulations in certain sectors as the labour market, transport, education or communications. However I don't share their views in another issues. Socially is a conservative party, which I doubt it'd never support causes as legalization of weed, keeping homosexual marriage, secularism and separation between the Catholic Church and the Spanish State, and which probably would pursue and tougher antiterrorist policy. A friend of mine, which will vote for them on Sunday says me they're the real holders of the Aznar and Aguirre administrations (both of them are still in the PP but without any responsabilities), but really, as I'd have in his day problems for voting for Aznar or Aguirre, I'd have problems for voting for a party with so a socially conservative agenda. Although the possibility of pressing the government to follow a more pro-market economic policy by supporting a conservative split of them is always attractive.

So now I have a real dillemma which I think some of you'd have suffered in the past. As far as I will not vote for the current government, should I vote for that party, or for other one with a more "centrist" economic agenda but with a more "liberal" social agenda, defending, for example, the legalization of weed, prostitution, and secularism? Talking in American terms... Tea Party or New Democrats?

 

[Christian Liberty]

I don't fully understand the European political scene. Thinking in American terms, probably neither. If you don't feel comfortable with a party, just don't vote. Don't give an evil party your votes.

 

[Zippyjuan]

You have to decide what side of what issues are most important to you. Party affiliation is just a label- there are good people and bad people in all parties.

 

[helmuth_hubener]

I would go with the VOX, because the economic stuff is more important (you can always do the drugs, prostitution, etc., with very little risk if you're intelligent, if those things are really important to you, but you can't create a whole thriving economy on your own)... were it not for this: They oppose the autonomous regions system! And they don't like the Catalan and Basque secession movements! Decentralization is, to me, a huge issue, a much bigger issue long-term than whether the PP or the PSOE (Spanish Socialist Workers' Party) gets into power for the next couple years. Vox describes themselves as a centralist party, and I think they are.

If Catalonia could become completely independent, that would be a fantastic boon for liberty! And the people are for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2009_(Arenys_de_Munt) . The more countries the better.

So, a pox on VOX.

You could always try to help out the Individual Freedom Party: http://www.p-lib.es/ That's the only party in Spain that I personally would have a great love for. And in it you could probably find some fun like-minded people to talk, fiesta, and be amigos with!

 

[No1butPaul]

Are either of the parties anti-EU, or Euro skeptics as they call them?

 

[Spanish Guy]

No1butPaul: In Spain the only euroskeptics parties are the ones of the far-left, and some minor parties from the Catholic right which are not more than neo-franquist and socialist conservatives.

Helmut, things are a bit different in Spain. In United Stes you're used to see conservative forces defending state rights, whilst the leftists are against decentralization, in Spain is the oppossite. Left forces in Spain are sympathetic towards secessionism and regional nationalist, whilst the conservatives one are more unionist and Spanish nationalist. The tries to create parties defending conservativism and what you Americans would call State Rights, or leftist and centralist position, have ended with those parties disbanded or evolving to more centrist positions.

Currently, Spain is a extremely decentralized country, where each community (state) have their own educational and health system, highway networks, hidrographic policies or partial control over fiscal policies (essentially income, gas and "environmental" taxes). Moreover some communities have control over their own railway networks, their own police forces or, as Catalonia, their prision system. That decentralization happened in the 70s and 80s, and, according to many, have led to the creation of huge regional bureaucracies.

Public workers hired by the communities (red), local administration, (orange), Spanish State (green), Social Security (blue, since 2007 hired by the communities), and public enterprises (purple)

The current proposal of VOX is to give back some powers to the Spanish State, essentially, police, education and health system, whilst giving the rest of the regional competences to Municipalities and Diputaciones (counties). I like the devolution to Municipalities and Diputaciones but I don't like the proposal of giving back powers to the State. I understand the reasons given by VOX to ask for it, as they claim every children should study in the language their parents want, whilst some communities forces children to study in their own local languages (Galician, Catalan, etc.) in order to preserve the local language, but I think that legislation should be enforced by the communities and not by the State.

Finally, I don't think secessionism is supported by most of the Catalans, one thing is being popular ir rural areas and another thing is being a major force in Barcelona and his metro area. Moreover, the situation is different of Texas splitting from the USA. Texas is a conservative state in a nation whose political center is in a Progressive region as your Eastern Coast, and whose president is a Progressive like Obama. Catalonia is a leftist region in a nation whose political center is in Castilla, a very conservative region, with a conservative President, and whose capital, Madrid, is ruled by the most conservative-economic faction of the PP. An independent Catalonia would be a country governed by social-democrats, socialists, communists and ecologists, as have happened in the last decade with their regional government and the most important municipalities. With awful results for them IMHO.

 

[Ronin Truth]

"If voting ever really changed anything, it would be made illegal."

 

[No1butPaul]

I'll admit, this is a bit confusing and, so, going back to your original question, "Talking in American terms... Tea Party or New Democrats?" -- Tea Party, no question (although there is definitely not a consensus with that position in this forum). Keeping in mind though, the Tea Party is not a party, but a movement with the purpose really to protest financial irresponsibility, excessive regulation strangling liberty and the economy, and business as usual in Washington (voting for bills no one has read, for example). The tea party was always about promoting issue positions for financial responsibility.

Forgive me, but wasn't your current government (the one I believe you likened to the Tea Party) pro EU bank bailout?

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Helmut, things are a bit different in Spain. In United States you're used to see conservative forces defending state rights, whilst the leftists are against decentralization, in Spain is the opposite.

That's true. My brother is actually in Spain right now. Anyway, I just think that decentralization is extremely important. So in this case, the leftists have it right.

Currently, Spain is a extremely decentralized country, where each community (state) have their own educational and health system, highway networks, hidrographic policies or partial control over fiscal policies (essentially income, gas and "environmental" taxes). Moreover some communities have control over their own railway networks, their own police forces or, as Catalonia, their prision system. That decentralization happened in the 70s and 80s, and, according to many, have led to the creation of huge regional bureaucracies.

Right, exactly! The Autonomous Region system is terrific! It's far more federalist (decentralized) than what we have in the supposedly federalist USA. Yes, all these autonomous regions are socialist, but guess what? That's what you get when you have a country filled with socialists! I mean, there's really no magic way around that. If the people are socialist... that's a problem. And it can't be solved just by shuffling a few chairs around in the Cortes Generales. Things are going to be socialist. And the growth of gov't is just built into the logic of the Bismarkian system; we have the same problem everywhere in the world. So I wouldn't blame the Autonomous Region system for that. America has the same problem. The local governments are growing rapidly, even though their scope of authority most certainly has not grown, but is shrinking.

The current proposal of VOX is to give back some powers to the Spanish State, essentially, police, education and health system, whilst giving the rest of the regional competences to Municipalities and Diputaciones (counties). I like the devolution to Municipalities and Diputaciones but I don't like the proposal of giving back powers to the State. I understand the reasons given by VOX to ask for it, as they claim every children should study in the language their parents want, whilst some communities forces children to study in their own local languages (Galician, Catalan, etc.) in order to preserve the local language, but I think that legislation should be enforced by the communities and not by the State.

Oh, that's more complex than I had known. Well, I agree with everything you're saying here. The devolution to Municipalities and Diputaciones would be good. Maybe go with Vox after all.

Finally, I don't think secessionism is supported by most of the Catalans, one thing is being popular in rural areas and another thing is being a major force in Barcelona and his metro area.

So Barcelonians are not as much in favor of secession? That's too bad.

Moreover, the situation is different of Texas splitting from the USA. Texas is a conservative state in a nation whose political center is in a Progressive region as your Eastern Coast, and whose president is a Progressive like Obama. Catalonia is a leftist region in a nation whose political center is in Castilla, a very conservative region, with a conservative President, and whose capital, Madrid, is ruled by the most conservative-economic faction of the PP. An independent Catalonia would be a country governed by social-democrats, socialists, communists and ecologists, as have happened in the last decade with their regional government and the most important municipalities. With awful results for them IMHO.

Yes, it would probably be kind of like Hawaii (a very social-democrat/socialist/communist/ecologist place) seceding from the USA. But still.... the more countries the better. 300 countries in Europe is better than 30.

Maybe vote for VOX, but join the P-Lib-I as well. They are the party truly in favor of freedom, liberty, and the kind of ideals Ron Paul stands for.

 

[William Tell]

"If voting ever really changed anything, it would be made illegal."

"If whining on the on the internet ever really changed anything, it would be made illegal"

 

[Spanish Guy]

I'll admit, this is a bit confusing and, so, going back to your original question, "Talking in American terms... Tea Party or New Democrats?" -- Tea Party, no question (although there is definitely not a consensus with that position in this forum). Keeping in mind though, the Tea Party is not a party, but a movement with the purpose really to protest financial irresponsibility, excessive regulation strangling liberty and the economy, and business as usual in Washington (voting for bills no one has read, for example). The tea party was always about promoting issue positions for financial responsibility.

Forgive me, but wasn't your current government (the one I believe you likened to the Tea Party) pro EU bank bailout?

Yes they were. The fact is the political spectrum in Europe is different and more leftist than the American one. What I would call Spanish Tea Party is obviously more leftist than the American Tea Party. Moreover the economy of Spain has much more regulations than the American one, and the culture of people is also more leftist. You must note, for example, that these elections the parties supporting the "Venezuelan model" for Spain, are getting around 20% of votes.

So although we had a President who looked up to Hayek as Aznar, obviously their policies were much leftist than the Austrian economist thinking. Each country is different, and implementing drastically the Ron Paul agenda could be very complicated in Spain without causing violence or something worse, and any party supporting Ron Paul agenda, as the P-LIB won't get more than 0.01% of the votes. Is a bit similar to what happened with the Venezuelan politcian María Corina Machado a supporter of people's capitalism, Hayek and Mises but who has supported the candidate Capriles in the Presidential election, with an agenda which could be considered similar to the leftist wing of Dems in America.

So my question is about voting a party which in our political spectrum is in the same position as the New Dems there, or our Tea Party, although their agendas would be mainstream Dems and RINOS (Vox is in fact supported by Rudy Giuliani) respectively.

 

[Spanish Guy]

IMHO secessionism in Spain is not caused by any desire of personal freedom but because the politicians have found it a good way to justify their awful gestion. So what if Catalonia have 25% of unemployment? They blame Spanish government, although we're spending tons of millions in bailing out Catalonia. And now they ask for independence, inside the EU but outta Spain. But not for diminishing the taxes (which in Catalonia are among the highest in the world) but for having a welfare state similar to the French one.

Secessionism in Catalonia was minoritary until 2012. Then, after 10 years of a coalition government between the socialdemocrats, the indepentist socialdemocrats, the commies and the ecologists, the right-winged Catalan nationalist party (who have never been secessionist) won the elections, but needed the support of indepentist socialdemocrats to govern. So they've taken a more secessionist policy, while blaming for every problem in Catalonia to Spanish gvt.

Barcelonians are not as much in favor of secession as Spanish-speaking people tend to support the union, and the Catalan-speaking the secessionism. Spanish speaking people lives in the big cities, specially Barcelona and metropolitan area and Tarragona, whilst the Catalan-speaking population is found in rural areas. The same happens in the Basque Country, where the pro-Union parties get good results in the cities, whilst Bildu, a socialist-commie-independentist coalition got 80 or 90% of votes in rural areas where everybody is Basque-speaker.

 

[Demigod]

If Catalonia could become completely independent, that would be a fantastic boon for liberty!

Secession does not mean automatic increase in freedom,most of the times it is the opposite.During Yugoslavia there was one central government and everyone complained why all the money is going to Belgrade while most of the republics were fighting for the scraps.Then everyone seceded.Today there are 6 governments ( 7 if you count Kosovo ) and every single problem that existed before the split still exists + many new ones.The only difference today is that instead of having a 24 million market and a country large enough to have some influence ,5 bankrupt banana republics exist + 2 criminal strongholds.It was never the complete fault of the central government politicians that things were as they were,the local politicians were mostly to blame and it only took 100+ thousand people to learn the lesson.The sad thing is most did not even learn it.

 

[Ronin Truth]

"If whining on the on the internet ever really changed anything, it would be made illegal"

I suppose that your Internet whining observation must also apply to voters and voting.

 

[William Tell]

I suppose that your Internet whining observation must also apply to voters and voting

Naw, I was just picking on that overrated quip internet people use to justify being non politically involved, like most of the sheeple are. People ignoring the government is how tyrants come to power.

 

[William Tell]

Back to the original thread, vote for a right wing party.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Naw, I was just picking on that overrated quip internet people use to justify being non politically involved, like most of the sheeple are. People ignoring the government is how tyrants come to power.

Sorry, I just haven't noticed too many tyrants prevented by people involved in politics, so far. By and large they are usually just tyrant enablers. How about you?

 

[William Tell]

Sorry, I just haven't noticed too many tyrants prevented by people involved in politics, so far. By and large they are usually just tyrant enablers. How about you?

I think Switzerland has done pretty good overall. We are better off having guys like Ron Paul in office, than John McCain. Hate to break the news to you, but Liberty advocates are being elected all across the nation, no thanks to the Debbie Downers.

 

[Ronin Truth]

I think Switzerland has done pretty good overall. We are better off having guys like Ron Paul in office, than John McCain. Hate to break the news to you, but Liberty advocates are being elected all across the nation, no thanks to the Debbie Downers.

Please be sure to let me know how all that successful electoral Liberty advocacy turns out in making any significant changes the status quo.

Statement of Purpose: Voluntaryists are advocates of non-political, non-violent strategies to achieve a free society. We reject electoral politics, in theory and in practice, as incompatible with libertarian principles. Governments must cloak their actions in an aura of moral legitimacy in order to sustain their power, and political methods invariably strengthen that legitimacy. Voluntaryists seek instead to delegitimize the State through education, and we advocate withdrawal of the cooperation and tacit consent on which State power ultimately depends.

http://voluntaryist.com/

 

[No1butPaul]

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