My Dad's letter to the Government on Illegal Guns in Canada, Please Critique

ClayTrainor

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My Dad is asking for some input on a letter he will be sending to his representative on illegal guns in Canada.

I'm hoping some people in here can give me some good insight as to where my dad is right and where he is wrong on these issues, as you seem them :)

Hi Ms. Oda, again I wanted to thank you on your response to my questions a few months ago.

I would like to present to you some ideas that I have that I would hope give the Conservative Party a boost with the public opinions in my family at least (I hope).

We seem to have an illegal gun problem in Canada that needs to be resolved. The following notes are items that I have seen on the news /newspapers/word of mouth from other concerned Canadians including retired police officers.

# 1. Almost everyday shootings with illegal guns have caused a lot of pain for a lot of people (victims and offenders ) who don't deserve it .
# 2. The problem is that these people who use the guns to shoot people and it is NOT the guns by themselves that kill people.
# 3. Our laws are good but are not enforced enough because partially because of the bail system.
# 4. Sometimes Racial profiling prevents the police from enforcing our laws definitely not videoing them.
# 5. Repetitive arresting of illegal gun possession which brings the police to say why bother ??? ( even though they would not admit publicly but the feeling may be there!!!! )

We have a Gun Registry in Canada which I read and heard about and I am a registered gun owner , which it is a great system for the police to use as a tool to track gun crime in Canada .
This is as far as I am concerned, a big benefit for Canada that many countries do not have.

Awhile ago I heard that there maybe an automatic jail sentence of 5 years for possessing an illegal gun which I and many other Canadians thought that WOW , finally something is going right in our government .
I am not talking about a person who forgot to register their gun and absolutely has no criminal record but a known criminal (to the police) with a gun history.

I have watched the "Legal Briefs" show on the Court TV channel many times and the lawyers defense to Gun crime is that the courts are so backed up for more than the 3 weeks (I believe that an illegal possession gun crime can be held for in our system) then automatically the gun possession person is released on bail. They get released because they are not proven to be guilty until it is proven in a court of law. (possibly 2 years later)

This is very frustrating and I am sure that the police are for getting guns off the streets. This creates a problem why the police do not look close enough again and again to those same gun possession people because they may be out on bail again and in possession of a gun again and again and then is a waste of time to arrest them .

I do not admit to knowing the laws or people's rights in any part of this e-mail but I am just a concerned Canadian Citizen saying that we must do more to make our country more safe in these troubled times.

If a known suspect has an illegal gun (not registered) in their possession then I am sure that police forces all over Canada will be HAPPY to transport the suspect to a court (wherever) in Canada (no charge ) to make sure this suspect is off the streets for a maximum jail period of 5 years as long as they are processed in the 3 week period of detainment so no bail will be accepted . The police know who these illegal gun possession people are, but are frustrated with the system. They need help to make them do their job which the Canadian people expect them to do !!!! On the news reports I see almost every day is that this alleged person who fired some rounds is Known to the police and he /she is out on bail.!!!!!

This will take 1 or maybe 2 Special Judges in a designated area who are up to date with all of Canada's laws in each Province so the process is quick and accurate as can be !!!!! If they are not busy in this area of crime then they would help the rest of the criminal justice systems when they are required.

We need to Fastrack these illegal gun carriers so the rest of them will understand that we as Canadians mean business. It is not the guns coming in from the USA but the needs of the criminals that are requiring the guns.

I would much rather spend our tax money on bigger jails with guards employment than have more police officers on the streets with their hands tied !!!!!! Thank you very much for listening to my concerns and my family concerns on this problem !!!!!!

Thank you very much !!!! Terry Trainor
 
I realize that this is Canadian Law and you do not have Second Amendment protections, But wouldn't it be much simpler to make all guns legal.
No more illegal guns.
Think of the money saved in both court and jails, not to mention bureaucracy.

I assume that murder and theft are still crimes. Should someone break those laws there is still a consequence.
Just a thought from a close neighbor. :)
 
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I realize that this is Canadian Law and you do not have Second Amendment protections, But wouldn't it be much simpler to make all guns legal.
No more illegal guns.
Think of the money saved in both court and jails, not to mention bureaucracy.

I assume that murder and theft are still crimes. Should someone break those laws there is still a consequence.
Just a thought from a close neighbor. :)

Thanks for your opinion :)

What do you think of a gun registry, and my dad's opinions on that?

We have a Gun Registry in Canada which I read and heard about and I am a registered gun owner , which it is a great system for the police to use as a tool to track gun crime in Canada .
This is as far as I am concerned, a big benefit for Canada that many countries do not have.


Does it makes sense to force gun owners to register?
 
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Thanks for your opinion :)

What do you think of a gun registry, and my dad's opinions on that?




Does it makes sense to force gun owners to register?

Myself, I oppose registry, I am opposed to any government interference in free citizens choice of tools, whether defense or sport.
Registration is the first step in confiscation.
Look to Australia, and the UK as examples. Crime has gone up. Honest people are left defenseless.
Every government that has forbidden weapons to it's citizens has later abused them.
Registration is the first step. Resist it.
 
It seems to prove the theory.......

I realize that this is Canadian Law and you do not have Second Amendment protections, But wouldn't it be much simpler to make all guns legal.
No more illegal guns.
Think of the money saved in both court and jails, not to mention bureaucracy.

I assume that murder and theft are still crimes. Should someone break those laws there is still a consequence.
Just a thought from a close neighbor. :)


If guns are illegal only criminals will have guns.

It's a serious question.
 
QUOTE=ClayTrainor;2264010]My Dad is asking for some input on a letter he will be sending to his representative on illegal guns in Canada.

I'm hoping some people in here can give me some good insight as to where my dad is right and where he is wrong on these issues, as you seem them :)[/QUOTE]

Get hard statistics, a University study or something to back you up.. "it seems" doesn't cut it.

More specifics about the "bail system" and judiciary or sociological study to back it up.

I heard that there maybe an automatic jail sentence of 5 years for possessing an illegal gun which I and many other Canadians thought that WOW , finally something is going right in our government .

Is there or isn't there a manditory sentence. You have to know the facts and argue the facts if you want to infulence the government trolls.

I have watched the "Legal Briefs" show on the Court TV channel many times and the lawyers defense to Gun crime is that the courts are so backed up for more than the 3 weeks (I believe that an illegal possession gun crime can be held for in our system) then automatically the gun possession person is released on bail. They get released because they are not proven to be guilty until it is proven in a court of law. (possibly 2 years later)

This is very frustrating and I am sure that the police are for getting guns off the streets. This creates a problem why the police do not look close enough again and again to those same gun possession people because they may be out on bail again and in possession of a gun again and again and then is a waste of time to arrest them .

Okay.... then let's bail out the gun too, for a grand or two and take it out of ciruculation at least.


I have watched the "Legal Briefs" show on the Court TV channel many times and the lawyers defense to Gun crime is that the courts are so backed up for more than the 3 weeks (I believe that an illegal possession gun crime can be held for in our system) then automatically the gun possession person is released on bail. They get released because they are not proven to be guilty until it is proven in a court of law. (possibly 2 years later)

This is very frustrating and I am sure that the police are for getting guns off the streets. This creates a problem why the police do not look close enough again and again to those same gun possession people because they may be out on bail again and in possession of a gun again and again and then is a waste of time to arrest them .


What you have to do is make multiple posessions of a non registered fire arm a NON BAILABLE or HIGH BAIL offense. You have to change the laws.
 
Myself, I oppose registry, I am opposed to any government interference in free citizens choice of tools, whether defense or sport.
Registration is the first step in confiscation.
Look to Australia, and the UK as examples. Crime has gone up. Honest people are left defenseless.
Every government that has forbidden weapons to it's citizens has later abused them.
Registration is the first step. Resist it.

Easy and univeversal registry could also be a recognition of the right to bear arms. It would only be a negtive in the hands of a government that is adversarial to the right to bear arms.
 
Here's my response to him, so far.

Hey Dad, i think it's a very well written letter and expresses your concerns very nicely. I didn't know you were able to express your thoughts so clearly with written words. :-) I think your concerns are genuine and important, and clearly we all want violent crimes to be limited as much as possible, in order to have as peaceful society as possible.

That being said, I do have some fundamental disagreements with your positions on this issue, as i don't think harsher enforcement of gun laws will reduce or fix the the problem of gun violence in Canada.

I'm going to comment on each one of your point form points, separately, and tell you exactly where i agree and disagree with you. I understand you're looking for input for your letter, but unfortunately i do not think there is a government solution to this problem, allow me to explain...

You said: "# 1. Almost everyday shootings with illegal guns have caused a lot of pain for a lot of people (victims and offenders ) who don't deserve it ."
My comment: Nobody deserves to be a victim of a violent crime. Is a violent crime committed with a weapon the government deems as legal, any more or less moral than that of a violent crime committed with a weapon that the government deems as illegal? If i steal your Winchester gun, and use it, is it an illegal gun or a legal gun? Obviously it's a legal gun, but my use of it is illegal. Knowing this, Can we agree that it's the crimes themselves that are bad, not the legal status of the weapons in use? Murder and violence is just as wrong whether it's done with a legal gun, an illegal gun, a kitchen knife, or a hit and run with a car. The crimes against individual rights are the problem, not the legal status of the tools used to do so.

You said: "# 2. The problem is that these people who use the guns to shoot people and it is NOT the guns by themselves that kill people."
My comment: I 100% agree with this point. The problem is the people and often enough, it's the black market economic incentives that motivate them to perform illegal acts, not the guns themselves.

You said: "# 3. Our laws are good but are not enforced enough because partially because of the bail system."
My comment: I strongly disagree that the problems we face with violent gun crimes, are from lack of enforcement, with or without the flawed bail system.

I think you're addressing symptoms of the cancer, not the cancer itself. The violence problem comes from too many immoral laws being enforced, that create dangerous black markets with very lucrative profit incentives. For example, the economic incentives provided by the War on Drugs is responsible for providing black market profits to the most violent criminals, which gives them the incentive to protect their illegal assets with illegal weapons, since the cops will not protect them. As long as drugs are illegal, you will get violent thugs with guns committing violent acts. You can lock away as many of them as you want, but they'll just be replaced by someone as bad or worse because, it's the black market economic incentive that ultimately drives the criminality, not the guns or the lack of enforcement. It's the same principle that gave Al Capone and his cronies so much power. Sure everything they did was illegal, and cops tried very hard to enforce the many laws they had and create new ones, but that doesn't matter. The violent criminals are motivated by black market profits, not the fear of the law. If you truly want a real solution to help reduce Gun violence, you need to seriously consider fighting for the legalization of drugs, prostitution, etc. and destroy the black markets, that encourage violence.

You said: "# 4. Sometimes Racial profiling prevents the police from enforcing our laws definitely not videoing them."
My comment: I agree that race irrelevant. It's the crimes that are wrong, and it doesn't matter who commits them or what color their skin is. The law needs to be based on individual rights, not the rights of collective groups. I don't believe in women's rights, black rights, muslim rights, white rights or any of that collectivist crap. I simply believe in the right of the individual to pursue his own interests, so long as he does not infringe upon the basic individual rights of others. You might think you agree with this, but you don't if you want to use the guns of the government to restrict certain individuals from owning guns. If someone commits a crime so serious as to lose his right to carry a gun, maybe he should be executed. I'm talking about a violent crime, not a foolish government made law like drug possession. If they did the time for the crime then why are they being punished after the fact?

You said: "# 5. Repetitive arresting of illegal gun possession which brings the police to say why bother ??? ( even though they would not admit publicly but the feeling may be there!!!! ) "
My comment: Exactly my point! There are already laws in place, that try to prevent this sort of thing and it doesn't work. You're arguing that the laws aren't harsh enough, and i'm arguing that there are already too many laws. One could argue that these gun laws today, are far harsher than they were 50 years ago, when gun crime was WAY lower. Do you really think that some harsher laws will help? To me, it's pretty obvious that they won't. For example, every time the government makes harsher laws for drinking and driving, it doesn't seem to do anything at all to fix, or even reduce the problem.

You said: "Awhile ago I heard that there maybe an automatic jail sentence of 5 years for possessing an illegal gun which I and many other Canadians thought that WOW , finally something is going right in our government ."
My Comment: I have the opposite feeling when i hear something like this. I think it's immoral and wrong, and i guarantee you some good non-violent innocent people will be falsely accused under such a progressive government action. You're going to imprison people who haven't committed a crime against any individuals? Why? Just because the gun they own is deemed illegal, doesn't make it any more or less safe.

You said: We have a Gun Registry in Canada which I read and heard about and I am a registered gun owner , which it is a great system for the police to use as a tool to track gun crime in Canada .
This is as far as I am concerned, a big benefit for Canada that many countries do not have.

My Comment: Gun Registries only help the government track and limit the law-abiding citizens, not the criminals. Gun registries do absolutely nothing to help reduce violent gun crime, as some of America's most violent states have strict gun registration laws. Liberals are the ones who tend to tell us that registration and waiting periods will reduce crime, i'm kind of shocked to hear you using this argument. Studies have consistently shown that over ninety percent of violent crimes are committed without a gun. Of those committed with a Gun, over 80 percent of the guns used were obtained through unlawful means. Registration and waiting periods are of little value in deterring criminals. If you intend to commit a crime, you'll use whatever tools necessary in order to do so, and you're certainly not going to register them.

It's also just as easy to commit a violent crime with a registered weapon as it is with an unregistered one.

You said: "The police know who these illegal gun possession people are, but are frustrated with the system."
My Comment: I highly doubt that the police know who and where all of the people that own illegal guns are. They might know of some of them, but i bet it's less than 10%. Most illegal gun owners are VERY discrete about it.

You said: "We need to Fastrack these illegal gun carriers so the rest of them will understand that we as Canadians mean business."
My Comment: Every time you arrest a drug dealer and pass a harsher drug law, does the black market incentives to sell those drugs go away? Every time the law gets harsher for drinking and driving, does it help stop the problem? You could say "Canada means business" on both of the previous issues but, it doesn't matter. the black-market for drugs is more profitable and illegal than ever, and drinking and driving is still rampant even though it's more illegal than ever before.

Fast track as many "illegal" gun owners as you want. Illegal gun trades will just become more profitable, and the criminals will be empowered even further. You're addressing the symptoms of the cancer, not the cancer itself. Its' going to take more individual freedoms to solve this, not more laws.

You Said: "It is not the guns coming in from the USA but the needs of the criminals that are requiring the guns."
My Comment: EXACTLY my point. What types of jobs and income streams, do the large majority of these criminals tend to have, dad? You have to admit that the black market incentives are the problem, not guns, not the legal status of guns and not the lack of enforcement.

It's illegal for mexicans to immigrate to America but, they sneak in because they end up getting free medicare, and other benefits from the government. Making harsher laws, does not address or solve the real cancer of these problems! INCENTIVES are where you have to look! In terms of gun violence, most of that comes from Black-markets (illegal trades)

You said: "I would much rather spend our tax money on bigger jails with guards employment than have more police officers on the streets with their hands tied !!!!!! Thank you very much for listening to my concerns and my family concerns on this problem !!!!!!"
My Comment: How about neither? why is that not an option? Jails are a huge tax burden, and they are already overpopulated. If you want to lock every single unregistered firearm owner, than you better get ready for a 20% hike in your taxes, and the problem still wont be solved, the criminal population will just increase. Jails should be reserved for violent criminals only. We should not lock someone up just for owning an unregistered firearm, if they did not use it in a crime against another individual.


The only letter i would personally consider writing to a politician about Gun laws, is the fact that guns would be far less of a problem if they were legal. Eliminate the concept of illegal guns. Firstly, Think of the money that would be saved in both court and jails, not to mention bureaucracy. Murder and theft, and violation of property, etc. are still crimes. Should someone break those laws there should be the harshest of consequences, but simply owning something is not reason enough stick a government gun in their face and screw them with the long arm of the law. Violence needs to be punished, not possession! In the same respect, We shouldn't use government violence to punish those who have committed no violence.

Good luck with the letter, i wish you the best in your efforts. Let me know if you hear a response. I do not accept your solutions as helpful ones, but i respect you for wanting to take an active role in trying to make your community safer. My goal with this response is to try to express the my understanding that political action tends to complicate things and make them worse, and rarely addresses the true cancers of the problems that we face.

The real solution lies withing destroying the criminal profits in the black markets, and you can only do that with legalization.

Let's embrace freedom, and stop trying to force our will on others. Jails should be for violent criminals only.

Love,

Clay Trainor
 
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Very Nice Clay. well worded and to the point. Perhaps you should aim for that PM job. :)
 
We have a Gun Registry in Canada which I read and heard about and I am a registered gun owner , which it is a great system for the police to use as a tool to track gun crime in Canada .
This is as far as I am concerned, a big benefit for Canada that many countries do not have.

I'd be very surprised if this system actually helps track the illegal guns that are claimed to be the problem.... if someone possesses a gun illegally, why in the hell would they register into this tracking system?
 
I spent several years hunting in northern Canada, and can assure you most guns were never registered. People registered one, and nothing else they owned. Registration is all about control of the population. The criminals could care less. The courts are weak on this as your Dad stated. It seems most countries want to make things tough on the good guys, and not the criminals.
 
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