Move Beyond Capitalism

[BlackSand]

Do you believe that we will ever reach a point technologically, socially, culturally, whatever, where we move beyond capitalism? For instance the effect robots will have on the economy over the next 100 years is incalculable. Some economists have predicted mass unemployment because of this.

http://www.wfs.org/content/postemployment-economy

Now we here are smart enough to realize the bull crapness of those economists. But we should realize that it will have a massive effect. And beyond that, what about the remix culture and creative commons?

http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/06/09/rasmus-fleischer/the-future-of-copyright/

The effect the internet and massive information storage has on entertainment is unbelievable.

And then theres incentive. Theres been quite a few studies proving that the best incentive is not reward, but a job well done. Achieving just below the point of perfection.

And going back to these robots. Is the Resource Based economy as ridiculous as it sounds? Will eventually robots produce at such a rate that food is as cheap as air: free?


So back to my question. We all know that technology is going to have a massive impact on economic matters. But will it completely abolish capitalism?

 

[hugolp]

I dont think we will get to a point where there a no scare resources anymore in the next 10.000 years (or that the human race will survive that long for that matter), but assuming that in 200 years we get to that situation...

it will be the end of capitalism.... and of any other economic system. Without scare resources you dont need an economic system, you just take whatever you want because everything is plentiful.

The purpose of an economic system (capitalism, corporatism, communism, etc...) is allocating scare resources. No scare resources = no need for economic sysem.

The answer is obvious.

 

[Knighted]

For instance the effect robots will have on the economy over the next 100 years is incalculable. Some economists have predicted mass unemployment because of this.

There is a lot of fear that automation will destroy jobs and leave people terminally unemployed in the future. It's not a new fear either - it's existed ever since the Ludites in the 1700's set out to destroy equipment that helped automate many manufacturing processes. If you told someone decades ago that there would be jobs for almost a billion chinese today, they would have thought you were insane. But today China sits on an unemployment rate of only a few percent. History has shown that when jobs are needed in the economy, jobs are created in the economy. I have a theory on how this happens.

And here is why I believe the automation fear is unfounded. Job growth is largely driven by labor costs, and labor is a commodity like any other, where costs are subject to supply and demand. When labor costs drop in the short term due to an excess of unemployed workers from automation advances, lower labor costs lead to previously unprofitable ventures becoming worthy of pursuit with a less expensive work force. These new ventures create additional jobs, and the reduction of workers from the unemployment lines succeeds in raising the labor cost once more.

The net result is that replacement jobs are created for those lost to automation, and products become much cheaper for consumers to buy, since automation eliminates labor costs which contribute to a large percentage of the price of manufactured items. The guys who lost their jobs to the robots certainly won't like it, but the economy as a whole has benefited from this event.

 

[RedStripe]

Best analysis of "post-capitalist" modes of production (if you understand the word capitalism as actually used): http://mutualist.org/id116.html

and it's free, of course

 

[Sola_Fide]

So back to my question. We all know that technology is going to have a massive impact on economic matters. But will it completely abolish capitalism?

You can't destroy the market. Ever.



Robots may destroy some industries but they create new ones. There will never be a time when markets don't exist.

 

[forsmant]

Unless these robots are capable of intelligence there will be a need for humans and a market. But once they become intelligent than were all screwed. Ive seen the movies......

 

[Mini-Me]

There is a lot of fear that automation will destroy jobs and leave people terminally unemployed in the future. It's not a new fear either - it's existed ever since the Ludites in the 1700's set out to destroy equipment that helped automate many manufacturing processes. If you told someone decades ago that there would be jobs for almost a billion chinese today, they would have thought you were insane. But today China sits on an unemployment rate of only a few percent. History has shown that when jobs are needed in the economy, jobs are created in the economy. I have a theory on how this happens.

And here is why I believe the automation fear is unfounded. Job growth is largely driven by labor costs, and labor is a commodity like any other, where costs are subject to supply and demand. When labor costs drop in the short term due to an excess of unemployed workers from automation advances, lower labor costs lead to previously unprofitable ventures becoming worthy of pursuit with a less expensive work force. These new ventures create additional jobs, and the reduction of workers from the unemployment lines succeeds in raising the labor cost once more.

The net result is that replacement jobs are created for those lost to automation, and products become much cheaper for consumers to buy, since automation eliminates labor costs which contribute to a large percentage of the price of manufactured items. The guys who lost their jobs to the robots certainly won't like it, but the economy as a whole has benefited from this event.

This is a really insightful post, and I'm not sure I've ever read it laid out like this so concisely before. In case the point of your last sentence is unclear to anyone, I wanted to expand on it a bit: The reason the economy as a whole benefits is because the increased production and efficiency ultimately lead to increased consumer buying power. Especially after the job market recovers from the initial shock, automation enables more consumers to satisfy more of their needs and wants more cheaply. To expand on what hugolp said, the free market is an economic system that does more than simply allocate existing scarce resources as fairly as possible. In addition, and more importantly, it actually attacks the central problem of scarcity with increased abundance.

 

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Unless we can build those replicators from Star Trek there will always be some form of Capitalism.

 

[forsmant]

there was still some form of capitalism on star trek...

 

[Fox McCloud]

even if all resources for all goods that we currently have become limitless, there's still a bit of a problem; there are certain goods that will always be scarce goods; for example, land--even if our resources are infinite, land will still be limited; we can make more efficient use of land and build taller buildings and ones that are deeper, but you're still limited in total area you can build in; I'm sure this applies to other areas, but this is the first one that I could think of.

Robotics is still pretty clunky; I really don't think we'll ever get true "AI" as put forth in numerous movies; robots that can replace workers at McDonalds, deliver packages, fly planes, drives cars, and other similar things? Sure, but not true intelligence, IMHO, at least, never on a human scale.

 

[Anti Federalist]

there was still some form of capitalism on star trek...

YouTube - The Trouble With Tribbles

 

[hugolp]

even if all resources for all goods that we currently have become limitless, there's still a bit of a problem; there are certain goods that will always be scarce goods; for example, land--even if our resources are infinite, land will still be limited; we can make more efficient use of land and build taller buildings and ones that are deeper, but you're still limited in total area you can build in; I'm sure this applies to other areas, but this is the first one that I could think of.

Robotics is still pretty clunky; I really don't think we'll ever get true "AI" as put forth in numerous movies; robots that can replace workers at McDonalds, deliver packages, fly planes, drives cars, and other similar things? Sure, but not true intelligence, IMHO, at least, never on a human scale.

Other planets. If we get to that point I am sure we can travel to other planets.

 

[Fox McCloud]

Other planets. If we get to that point I am sure we can travel to other planets.

sure, but you're still limited by the planet you're on; land is still a scarce good.

That said, I'm a bit skeptical if we'll ever make it to another planet or really have an intense need to; its predicted (by the UN shockingly) that World Population will peak in around 2100 and decline from there on out to a lower number (I forget the number, but I think it's around 6 billion); this is without any interference or calamities.

*shrug* I just see really big problems with space travel that would require insane advancements in the field of science to be practical; I'm not concerned so much about propulsion as much as I am protecting a craft (and its occupants) that's traveling at such high speeds.

 

[hugolp]

sure, but you're still limited by the planet you're on; land is still a scarce good.

That said, I'm a bit skeptical if we'll ever make it to another planet or really have an intense need to; its predicted (by the UN shockingly) that World Population will peak in around 2100 and decline from there on out to a lower number (I forget the number, but I think it's around 6 billion); this is without any interference or calamities.

*shrug* I just see really big problems with space travel that would require insane advancements in the field of science to be practical; I'm not concerned so much about propulsion as much as I am protecting a craft (and its occupants) that's traveling at such high speeds.

I dont believe a word that comes out of the UN. But even if a more trustworthy institution made such a forecast I would not believe it. I dont think such a thing can be forecasted. Past trends do not guarantee future developments.

And its obvious that to get to other planets and live there we will need a lot of technological advances that we can not even imagine, but remember we are supposing we live in a world where the technology is so evolved that basically we can get what we want.

 

[noxagol]

As long as people want something, there will be someone else to provide it for a price (if allowed). Just because robots will be making everything doesn't mean you can't have jobs.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

What's after Capitalism (Laissez-Faire Markets)? Paradise

Seriously though, there is nothing after. Scarcity is a fact of life. We can only hope we can advance to a point where we work 5 hours a week or something absurd like that.

 

[Gaius1981]

No matter how much value robots create, that value will likely be used to expand businesses, creating an ever increasing number of jobs for humans. By the time Earth is fully automated (which I severaly doubt will happen), we'll likely be in the process of sending humans to colonize space, creating an endless demand for humans there. Hopefully that will be a new era of individualism, with great frontiersman, settlers and pioneers. I expect many planetary wars of independence, the establishment of a Galactic Reserve, and legitimate conspiracies of interplanetary government.

 

[noxagol]

Free-market capitalism end limit is what communism's goal is, everyone is equal and filthy rich. Eventually, the capabilities of man will compound upon themselves such that anyone can get anything material at the push of a button, literally. Then, people will compete in the realm of ideas and art, things that only people can create. Things will be in such abundance of goods and ability to create that scarcity will be infinitesimal. The only limit then will be in people's imaginations of what to create. However, it will be a while before we are able to get there, even more so since government impede progress every moment it exists.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Free-market capitalism end limit is what communism's goal is, everyone is equal and filthy rich. Eventually, the capabilities of man will compound upon themselves such that anyone can get anything material at the push of a button, literally. Then, people will compete in the realm of ideas and art, things that only people can create. Things will be in such abundance of goods and ability to create that scarcity will be infinitesimal. The only limit then will be in people's imaginations of what to create. However, it will be a while before we are able to get there, even more so since government impede progress every moment it exists.

Governments have tried for centuries to destroy the market. You can't destroy the market. You can make markets ILLEGAL, in which case they become black markets....but you can't destroy the market.

 

[teacherone]

somebody's been drinking the venus project koolaid.