Mossberg 500 Remmington 870 to be BANNED

[presence]

almost all pump-action and semi-automatic shotguns could be banned as they are all capable of accepting a magazine, box or tube capable of holding more than 5 rounds.
[]
the most dangerous interpretation of the 1968 Gun Control Act ever envisioned and will outlaw thousands of perfectly legitimate home defense shotguns

http://www.infowars.com/atf-to-accept-public-comments-prior-to-outlawing-shotguns/

I personally think they're targeting the Saiga 12 (a nice piece of semi-auto hardware) and not pump-actions like Alex warns. Almost a threat to take everything in order to "compromise" for only banning semi's. I suppose we'll see.

Check this forum comment:

I heard this about a month ago. And no, they aren't going for 870's, specifically they are after the Saiga 12g, Kalashnikov Style, Gas Piston Operated Semi-Automatic, Detachable Box Magazine Fed Shotgun.

The Saiga in question is chambered in 12g or .410, and is a variation of the AK-47.

The reason they are targeting this specific weapon system is that the Saiga company has already been forced into 'Modifying for sporting purposes' their rifles. The trigger group has been moved rearward to the location of the pistol grip mounting hole, and the the original trigger cutout welded over.

If you can pick one of the Saiga 12s up for under $650US do it. In close quarters 12g #00 Buck Steel Shot does wonders for defending your home against body armor wearing criminals

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1880721/pg1

You can pry my Saiga 12 from my cold dead hand.

also:

http://www.dailypaul.com/236260/atf-to-accept-public-comments-prior-to-outlawing-shotguns

presence

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

I've never really had an interest in getting a semi-auto shotgun, since I'm still unsure of their reliability. I'd rather have a pump at this point. But I'll almost definitely grab a semi if a ban starts to look imminent.

In close quarters 12g #00 Buck Steel Shot does wonders for defending your home against body armor wearing criminals

No, no, NO. Shotguns will not penetrate body armor. Not even soft body armor. The only exceptions are some sabot slugs and certain exotic or improvised slugs, which should at least go through soft armor.

Anyone who wants to defend against body-armored thugs with buckshot had better be aiming for pelvises or preferably faces.

 

[Icymudpuppy]

I've never really had an interest in getting a semi-auto shotgun, since I'm still unsure of their reliability. I'd rather have a pump at this point. But I'll almost definitely grab a semi if a ban starts to look imminent.

No, no, NO. Shotguns will not penetrate body armor. Not even soft body armor. The only exceptions are some sabot slugs and certain exotic or improvised slugs, which should at least go through soft armor.

Anyone who wants to defend against body-armored thugs with buckshot had better be aiming for pelvises or preferably faces.

Perhaps thats what was meant. Its easier to hit the face with buckshot than a single bullet. hard to armor the face.

 

[pcosmar]

No, no, NO. Shotguns will not penetrate body armor. Not even soft body armor. The only exceptions are some sabot slugs and certain exotic or improvised slugs, which should at least go through soft armor.

True enough, Though penetration is not everything.
I Guarantee you, A punkin'ball center mass on an armored target is going to put that man down and out of the fight.
Just from pure energy transfer. Blunt force trauma.

Though it may not kill, it will disable.

I personally have very little confidence in Body armor. Fine for shrapnel, but having my druthers,, I would prefer a clean through and through.

 

[Icymudpuppy]

True enough, Though penetration is not everything.
I Guarantee you, A punkin'ball center mass on an armored target is going to put that man down and out of the fight.
Just from pure energy transfer. Blunt force trauma.

Though it may not kill, it will disable.

I personally have very little confidence in Body armor. Fine for shrapnel, but having my druthers,, I would prefer a clean through and through.

The modern ballistic armor we wore in Iraq will stop any slug from any personal firearm carried by any world military force save a .50cal browning sniper rifle. The SAPI plate IV is worn to cover the center mass area of the chest front and back.

 

[pcosmar]

The modern ballistic armor we wore in Iraq will stop any slug from any personal firearm carried by any world military force save a .50cal browning sniper rifle. The SAPI plate IV is worn to cover the center mass area of the chest front and back.

And 1000 ft lbs of Whump will put you on your ass and knock the wind out of you.. very likely breaking some ribs as well.
Not dead,, but downed.

And here is some testing, Level IIIa

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

The modern ballistic armor we wore in Iraq will stop any slug from any personal firearm carried by any world military force save a .50cal browning sniper rifle. The SAPI plate IV is worn to cover the center mass area of the chest front and back.

Yeah, the latest plates (XSAPI) are said to stop up to M993, which is a .308 with a tungsten carbide core (a step above the older M61 .308 AP, which had a steel core). Something like a .338 Lapua AP would probably still get through, but American civilians can't get those unless they personally manufacture them on a lathe. I'd be interested to know if .338 Lapua with monolithic solid copper bullets would penetrate.

As for me, I'll stick with .50 BMG AP as my "just in case" weapon. The rifles chambered for it are getting lighter all the time, and muzzle brakes can bring the recoil down to tolerable levels. Anzio Ironworks makes a .50 BMG that weighs 13.5 lbs. Micor Defense has a semi-auto .50 BMG bullpup in the works that weighs only 17 lbs.

And 1000 ft lbs of Whump will put you on your ass and knock the wind out of you.. very likely breaking some ribs as well.
Not dead,, but downed.

A .50 BMG can kill through blunt trauma alone, even when it hits massive ceramic armor that can stop it. This has actually been studied with anesthetized pigs. When struck by the bullet, the armor flexes inward enough to break ribs and cause them to protrude deeply into the chest cavity. Other heavy slugs can probably do the same, at least at close range.

Still, I don't like the idea of relying on blunt trauma to the chest as a fight-stopper. Even penetrating bullet wounds don't always stop an enemy. Probably best to shoot around the armor, if possible. Of course that's easier said than done under stress and at close range, but it might be the only option, depending on what weapon is being used.

If I had to rely on blunt trauma, I'd want it to be blunt trauma to the head with a massive slug (like a Brenneke Black Magic Magnum).

As a footnote relevant to the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, blast overpressure from high explosives can kill regardless of what armor someone is wearing. No fragments necessary. This usually happens due to lung damage. In fact, body armor can amplify the effects of a blast. Being indoors also makes the blast 2-9 times more lethal.

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

Perhaps thats what was meant. Its easier to hit the face with buckshot than a single bullet. hard to armor the face.

I overlooked this post for a moment. Yeah, that might be what was meant. Buckshot is definitely good for shooting smallish moving targets. There is face armor out there, but it doesn't seem to be used very often.

 

[pcosmar]

I agree with the head shot plan..
I guess I am trying to make the another point.

A tanks greatest advantage is Psychological. Once you defeat that inherent fear,,tanks are easy to kill. Several ways.
Body Armor makes the wearer "feel" safe. Again Psychological.
I am unimpressed with Body armor. And as an old tank hunter I look for it's weakness and exploit that.

I would prefer the advantage of mobility to the minimal protection of all that weight.
But that's me. I would rather not even be seen till it is too late.

Oh,,and I have no intention of ever meeting soldiers on their own terms.

 

[twisted]

your "guarantee" SUCKS, dude. Second chance has testimonials from guys wearing soft armor who were NOT stopped by shotgun slugs to the chest. Quit spreading ignorance, ok" Newton's 3rd law says that the shot CAN'T hit the "hittee" ANY harder than it hits the shooter, so the impact is like that of the recoil, altho spread over less of an area on the chest. The body armor spreads that impact. You might get a broken rib, but a kick once broke 2 of my ribs in 2 places. I body slammed the kicker, but then I was done. Adrenalin can only do just so much in the way of pain-killing. the ft lbs of energy aren't what matter on an armored target. the only issue is the momentum, and a heavy rifle has the same momentum as a 12 ga slug. simply multiply the velocity in fps x the bullet wt in grs, and drop the meaningless zeros. 400 grs at 1400 fps is the EXACT same momentum as 200 grs at 2800 fps, or 100 grs at 5600 fps, or 300 grs at 1750 fps.

 

[twisted]

what we intend and what actually HAPPENS in combat are normally FAR from being the same thing.

 

[Pericles]

Body armor in action:



Real time of the incident:

 

[keh10]

There's no way in hell that this would ever apply to the Mossberg 500 and Remmington 870. Those are probably the two most popular waterfowl hunting rifles in America.

 

[muzzled dogg]

Google Tromi saiga

Get that while you can

Already banned in like a down states

 

[twisted]

why bother? No shotgun is worth a hoot for combat, anyway. Just because somebody COLLAPSES in surprise is NOT the same thing as being knocked down. Many people collapse frolm being shot, but they are NOT knocked down. Some have collapsed from being MISSED, or from being shot at with blanks.

 

[brushfire]

This is devastating. I've watched almost every ballistics test he's done, and never has the media jumped from the table. That's a 50lb block.



Respect the shotgun...

 

[twisted]

so what, dude? if a .22 hits you in the eye FIRST, you will never even FIRE that 12 ga. The idea is to hit FIRST, with ENOUGH, not to handicap yourself with limited use items, and that's what a shotgun is. For combat, you want either a pocket pistol, for normal times, so that you will HAVE it when needed ( you wont have the longarm, that is almost certain) or a sound suppressed, semiauto ,in 223, that is concealable, lw, compact, and uses GI mags and parts, ie, an M4, that also features a .22lr conversion unit, for cheap practice before shtf, and quiet foraging and sentry-braining after shtf.

 

[twisted]

Put up a row of 5 10 " steel plates sometime, at the shotguns IDEAL range of 15 yds, put those heavy magnum loads in a pump gun, and SEE if you can match my sub 3.0 second time (on electronic shooting timer, now, not bs stopwatch "timing") to react to the starting "beep", and hit all the plates. 1 yd between each plate, edge to edge. Even in a setup that FAVORS the shotgun, few can handle it as fast as a trained autorifle user. I can do this without ear protection, can you? There are NO effective flashhiders or sound suppressors for the shotgun and there never will be, either. the hole in the bore is too large, it lets out too much noisy and flashy hot gas. Simple as that.

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

your "guarantee" SUCKS, dude. Second chance has testimonials from guys wearing soft armor who were NOT stopped by shotgun slugs to the chest. Quit spreading ignorance, ok" Newton's 3rd law says that the shot CAN'T hit the "hittee" ANY harder than it hits the shooter, so the impact is like that of the recoil, altho spread over less of an area on the chest. The body armor spreads that impact. You might get a broken rib, but a kick once broke 2 of my ribs in 2 places. I body slammed the kicker, but then I was done. Adrenalin can only do just so much in the way of pain-killing. the ft lbs of energy aren't what matter on an armored target. the only issue is the momentum, and a heavy rifle has the same momentum as a 12 ga slug. simply multiply the velocity in fps x the bullet wt in grs, and drop the meaningless zeros. 400 grs at 1400 fps is the EXACT same momentum as 200 grs at 2800 fps, or 100 grs at 5600 fps, or 300 grs at 1750 fps.

Although I would never trust blunt trauma to stop an attacker unless it was massive blunt trauma to the head (as I said above), you're mistaken about the point I put in bold above. The force of a bullet strike is MUCH higher than force from the recoil of the gun used to fire the bullet.

Yes, the momentum of the bullet (plus that of all the other crap flying out of the muzzle, like the unburned powder) is the same as the recoil momentum of the rifle. You're right about that. But the energy of the bullet is much higher than the recoil energy of the gun. For example, the recoil energy of a .45-70 load might be 20 to 30 ft-lbs or so, depending on the load, but the bullet will fly out of the muzzle with an energy of well over 2000 ft-lbs. That's the same kinetic energy a 1-lb rock would hit the earth with if it fell from a height of 2000 feet, assuming no air resistance. All that energy is what will later be expended in the target by a variety of processes -- bullet deformation, deformation and/or penetration of armor and/or tissue, heat, etc. (The less deformable the bullet, the more energy is expended in penetration rather than bullet deformation. This is why AP rounds are always non-expanding.)

Also remember that the force of an impact isn't simply equal to the momentum; it's equal to the momentum times the acceleration (or deceleration) of the projectile (F=ma). Although it's not easy to tell just by watching, the momentum of a gun after it's fired is spread over a much longer time than the time it takes for a fast-flying bullet to act on a target. Thus, the force imparted on a target by a bullet is much higher than the force imparted by a rifle on a person's shoulder.

Even so, you're right that people have survived 12 gauge slugs to the chest while wearing body armor -- even soft body armor. Blunt trauma to the chest just isn't a reliable means of incapacitation unless the bullet being fired is truly massive and as non-deformable as possible (like a .458 Lott dangerous game solid or a .50 BMG AP).

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

why bother? No shotgun is worth a hoot for combat, anyway.

That's not true. They're great for offensive use against lightly-armored or unarmored targets (or against anyone with an unprotected head/face) at short range. It's easier to hit a small, moving target with a shotgun than with any other weapon.

They do suck for armor penetration, though. If I'm up against armor and don't have any heavy weapons, I'll take a 5.56 NATO with M855 every time. It will go through stuff that will stop 12 gauge slugs and even lead-core .308 cold (namely, the lightweight polyethylene armor that's being used to make new rifle-resistant helmets and face masks). For example, here's what happened when a police agency had one kind of polyethylene armor tested:

3 shots M193 successfully stopped by the plate
3 shots of M855 fully perforated the plate and underlying soft armor
3 shots of LeMas successfully stopped by the plate
3 shots of M43 successfully stopped by the plate
3 shots of M67 successfully stopped by the plate
3 shots of M80 successfully stopped by the plate
1 shot of 12 ga slug successfully stopped by the plate

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=32839

If one can get AP ammo in one of those other calibers (like 7.62x51 M61 or .30-06 M2 AP), then so much the better.

Just because somebody COLLAPSES in surprise is NOT the same thing as being knocked down. Many people collapse frolm being shot, but they are NOT knocked down. Some have collapsed from being MISSED, or from being shot at with blanks.

They're not knocked down, but it isn't because the bullet doesn't have the energy to knock them down. Believe me, 1000 ft-lbs or more energy will knock you flat on your ass IF all that energy is used for that purpose (by definition, 1000 ft-lbs of energy can lift 200 lbs to a height of 5 ft off the ground). But when a bullet hits someone, its energy is used to punch a hole in them while deforming/fragmenting the bullet. The energy isn't used to lift the person off the ground or move his entire body.

Think of it this way. If you shoot a paper target at the range, it doesn't move much, either. Is that because the bullet doesn't have enough energy to move it? Obviously not. Paper doesn't weigh very much. The bullet's energy simply doesn't get used for that purpose, since the paper doesn't pose any resistance to its flight.