More "Free Trade" Fail.

Sorry, this is a decade of data, not one year.

And, if you take out the durable goods generated by the housing bubble, this graph would show a continual decline.

Bosso

It is the result of our domestic policy has nothing to do with who we put up tariffs to. You are not going to get people to come back here and start business if you still have regulation and devaluing currency. You are not going to achieve some fantasy of getting government to shrink if you try to do it in such a sneaky and dishonest manner. What do you think socialists are stupid? The first question they will ask you is how you planning to pay for their hand outs.
 
Did you Google it? It doesn't appear that you did
This is like the central dogma of what RP advocates. You got to be freaking kidding me. Why do you follow RP then?

How won't tariffs preserve production domestically? I don't follow your response on declaring war.
Because all they do is discourage buying from abroad. It's like suggesting that Zimbabwe should raise tariffs to 1000% and watch it's domestic production flourish. Domestic production will only be helped by domestic economic policy that eliminated regulation and protects the home currency.

How is providing supporting evidence a problem with my argument?
It is not supporting evidence it is a dishonest tactic. You want tariffs because you think they will preserve production. To also say it is the least intrusive taxation does nothing to help your original argument. It may get people like me on board simply for our desire to reduce taxes but it will not get the socialists on board. As such you are speaking to every group what they want to hear. It won't take people long to realize what you are doing. I already caught on I don't take socialists for being stupid.

No. Unless we turn into China, where there are no property rights, no due process, no civil rights, etc, then we cannot compete. If you want America to turn into dictatorial squalor, then we'll copy China's economic policies. Reducing regulation will work with tariffs, as it will encourage competition among the states like the Constitution envisioned. Even a RTW state with a low cost of living like Alabama cannot compete anywhere close with China.
China has its faults and its strengths. Stop pretending like everything about China's economic policy is evil or bad. Yes they practice economic central planning but so do we. To their credit the burden on their business is far lower then we put the burden on our own. This is why everyone wants to go there.

Chinese labor is highly competitive but it does not mean that America is affected to the degree you suggest. It is a common fallacy amongst those who do not understand elementary economics. Comparative advantage allows chine to profit off of US even if they are better at making everything. This means both countries will still trade and produce things together.


The federal government in the Constitution has limited powers, but those powers must be funded. How do you propose going about that?
Through progressive income tax! Shit I just told you I don't care how I am taxed, I am either taxed or not taxed. I prefer not being taxed. Again this has nothing to do with your argument for tariffs.


First, let's have a source on your "less then (sic) 1%" figure. Second, this goes back to the fact that we cannot compete with China unless we turn ourselves into China.
More like you believe in regulation which says enough.

1% was obviously an exaggeration. It is more like 0% since as people have so eloquently proved you wrong tariffs hurt us not help us.
 
I view economic interventionism the same way I view military interventionism.

And the elite view it the same way as well: as poison to their plans.



‘Imperial By Design’

Posted by Charles Burris on January 2, 2011 01:43 PM
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/74394.html

Political scientist John J. Mearsheimer has a very intriguing analysis of contemporary American foreign policy in the current edition of The National Interest. Entitled “Imperial By Design,” his thoughtful article carefully and decisively destroys the flawed rationales behind the post-Cold War grand strategy of “global dominance” — whether of the neoconservative or liberal imperialist varieties — which has fueled all presidential regimes for the past two decades. In its place Mearsheimer offers a counter strategic stance which he deems “offshore balancing.” One important caveat: The good professor wants his elite readership to clearly know that he is a communicant in good standing of the sanctified Church of America’s foreign policy Establishment. He quickly dismisses from serious policy considerations the heretical Paulian option of non-interventionism or strategic disengagement, with the straw man smear of “isolationism”:

“THE DOWNWARD spiral the United States has taken was anything but inevitable. Washington has always had a choice in how to approach grand strategy. One popular option among some libertarians is isolationism.This approach is based on the assumption that there is no region outside the Western Hemisphere that is strategically important enough to justify expending American blood and treasure. Isolationists believe that the United States is remarkably secure because it is separated from all of the world’s great powers by two giant moats—the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans—and on top of that it has had nuclear weapons—the ultimate deterrent—since 1945. But in truth, there is really no chance that Washington will adopt this policy, though the United States had strong isolationist tendencies until World War II. For since then, an internationalist activism, fostered by the likes of the Rockefeller Foundation, has thoroughly delegitimized this approach. American policy makers have come to believe the country should be militarily involved on the world stage. Yet though no mainstream politician would dare advocate isolationism at this point, the rationale for this grand strategy shows just how safe the United States is. This means, among other things, that it will always be a challenge to motivate the U.S. public to want to run the world and especially to fight wars of choice in distant places.”
 
It is the result of our domestic policy has nothing to do with who we put up tariffs to. You are not going to get people to come back here and start business if you still have regulation and devaluing currency. You are not going to achieve some fantasy of getting government to shrink if you try to do it in such a sneaky and dishonest manner. What do you think socialists are stupid? The first question they will ask you is how you planning to pay for their hand outs.

I honestly haven't a clue what you're trying to say here, but I'm equally certain it has nothing to do with the OT.

Bosso
 
Sorry, this is a decade of data, not one year.

And, if you take out the durable goods generated by the housing bubble, this graph would show a continual decline.

Bosso

Ah...I was looking at the right-hand side of the chart that said "First Half of '08 to First Half of '09".

So, what you're saying is that the decline in durable goods manufacturing is due to bad economic policies foisted upon us by the FedGov, rather than problems with trade, free or otherwise, right?
 
[
This is like the central dogma of what RP advocates. You got to be freaking kidding me. Why do you follow RP then?

No it's not.


Because all they do is discourage buying from abroad. It's like suggesting that Zimbabwe should raise tariffs to 1000% and watch it's domestic production flourish. Domestic production will only be helped by domestic economic policy that eliminated regulation and protects the home currency.

Small countries are a different story. I think it's is counterproductive to put heavy tariffs on products you can't manufacture domestically. Further, Mugabe turned that place into a shithole, and it had nothing to do with tariffs.


It is not supporting evidence it is a dishonest tactic. You want tariffs because you think they will preserve production. To also say it is the least intrusive taxation does nothing to help your original argument. It may get people like me on board simply for our desire to reduce taxes but it will not get the socialists on board. As such you are speaking to every group what they want to hear. It won't take people long to realize what you are doing. I already caught on I don't take socialists for being stupid.

What? You are aware Miller Lite can both taste great and be less filling, yes? The two points I made in my argument are not mutually exclusive.


China has its faults and its strengths. Stop pretending like everything about China's economic policy is evil or bad. Yes they practice economic central planning but so do we. To their credit the burden on their business is far lower then we put the burden on our own. This is why everyone wants to go there.

Did I say everything is evil or bad? And yes, we have central economic planning, but it is nowhere near the degree China is at. Yeah, burden on businesses. Like child labor laws. The buinsess burden between China and the US is not comparable to say, New York to Texas.


Chinese labor is highly competitive but it does not mean that America is affected to the degree you suggest. It is a common fallacy amongst those who do not understand elementary economics. Comparative advantage allows chine to profit off of US even if they are better at making everything. This means both countries will still trade and produce things together.

First, I understand 'elementary' economics. If you want to make a point, support your statements with evidence, not insults.



Through progressive income tax! Shit I just told you I don't care how I am taxed, I am either taxed or not taxed. I prefer not being taxed. Again this has nothing to do with your argument for tariffs.

Ok, you prefer an income tax. And you started your rant asking ME why I supported Ron Paul?


More like you believe in regulation which says enough.

And an income tax isn't regulation?

1% was obviously an exaggeration. It is more like 0% since as people have so eloquently proved you wrong tariffs hurt us not help us.

Instead of hyperbole, provide statistics.....and there you go with the insults again!
 
I honestly haven't a clue what you're trying to say here, but I'm equally certain it has nothing to do with the OT.

Bosso

I am saying regulation of business and devaluation of currency is the reason the business is leaving and not the fact that China is using slave labor.

If you put in tariffs that does not grantee you that the business will return.

Lastly you are focusing on things that can be seen and ignoring the things that can not be seen. If we do put the tariffs back in we will be forced to produce goods we were importing. However we can't magically divert resources to something and not sacrifice productive capacity in other areas. So w/e manufacturing that is left in the country will be retooling and wasting their time to make things less efficiently back home.

Do we need manufacturing back home? Absolutely. Tariffs will not bring it back.
 
[

No it's not.

Sorry I lost track of what we were talking about and assumed something I shouldn't have.

On that topic I don't know what makes car manufacturers make things here. If it is a mandate that says something along the lines "only cars made in America can be sold here" then that is a bad and intrusive law.

Sure there is no alternative but to make cars here but the price of the cars will reflect the increased cost and crowd out some of the poor consumers.

Small countries are a different story. I think it's is counterproductive to put heavy tariffs on products you can't manufacture domestically. Further, Mugabe turned that place into a shithole, and it had nothing to do with tariffs.

For that same reason it is counter productive to put tariffs on anything else. You are making us produce thing that we produce less efficiently. For every good we produce less efficiently there is a good not made that we could produce more efficiently.

What? You are aware Miller Lite can both taste great and be less filling, yes? The two points I made in my argument are not mutually exclusive.

That will not convince a capitalist who disagrees with your tastes or a socialist that wants something more filling. You lost two customers.

I can support tariffs to fund government if and only if we already eliminated big government. Your strategy will not yield that outcome. If people like me rally behind your tariff we will end up with an extra tax and not cut backs. Because the other people who would rally behind you the labor unions will not support cuts in government and will fight to keep other taxes.

Did I say everything is evil or bad? And yes, we have central economic planning, but it is nowhere near the degree China is at. Yeah, burden on businesses. Like child labor laws. The buinsess burden between China and the US is not comparable to say, New York to Texas.

If our central planing is nowhere as bad then how come business is leaving? I don't see Chinese business leaving for other countries.

Sure you can beat the child labor laws drum but you must remember there is a big an-cap part of the movement that would rather not see child labor laws in the first place.
First, I understand 'elementary' economics. If you want to make a point, support your statements with evidence, not insults.

If you understand elementary economics how can you look past a simple economic concept of comparative advantage when you are discussing US?

Ok, you prefer an income tax. And you started your rant asking ME why I supported Ron Paul?

What some one prefers is irrelevant when you are trying to sell tariffs as something that will return business to US.


And an income tax isn't regulation?

Technically regulation and tax are two different things but both are bad. I rather see neither.

Instead of hyperbole, provide statistics.....and there you go with the insults again!

I am not interested in providing statistics when I simple language is enough.

Do you believe Rand and Ron when they say w/e government spends it must first take from the private sector? The concept is the same for tariffs. If we are producing things less efficiently then we are not producing things we could produce more efficiently.

I am all for bringing jobs back to US. Tariffs will not bring back those jobs. They will not limit government.
 
I wanted to point this out: http://www.census.gov/manufacturing/m3/adv/pdf/table1a.pdf

We had $193 billion in new orders in Nov of 2010; around $11 billion of that was defense. In Nov of 2000, the numbers were $210 billion and $8.5 billion respectively. In 2005, it was $223 billion and $9 billion. I point this out because someone posted a fundamentally dishonest chart, for the purposes of this argument. The line graph makes it appear that military or defense durable goods manufacturing outweighed nondefense durable goods manufacturing. As someone pointed out in correcting me, the data of the chart covers 10 years; it shows the relative percentages of defense and non-defense durable goods shipments--not the actual amounts of goods shipped. The right hand side of the chart--the bar graphs--only covers one year, and it shows military and non-military shipments and orders (rather than just the shipments). What the purpose of showing only shipments on the line graph, and shipments and orders on the bar graph I don't know.
 
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