Money vs Currency. Explaining Gold.

[Black Flag]

There's that obtuseness again, or my stupidity one.

You keep saying its "illegal" to use anything other FRBN to pay for things - but that is completely untrue.

The 'what' are the FRNs needed to pay the taxes.

Correct. The government accepts nothing else.
I won't accept your cow for payment either....

Since they aren't used for the barter, where do they come from?

They ARE used for barter!
You are trading an economic good for an economic good. Money is not a "different" economic good - it is an economic good.

They came from a printing press or electronic digit machine. Why does it matter? Does it matter where wheat comes from for you to use it?

How are you not required to 'create' FRNs in order to legally complete the transaction (pay your taxes)?

If you "create" your own FRBN, you go to jail.

You trade with others to get the FRBN.

...which is why it became money; everyone wants it (they need it), and everyone wants to trade with it (everyone else wants it).

Well then where do they come from?

The FED

Why am I forced, by government,

Government does not force you to do this whatsoever.

Government forces you to pay your taxes, it does not force you to use its FRBN.

to convert the transaction into units denominated by FRNs and then go out and find some in order to legally complete the transaction?

IF you come to me to trade your shoes for my computer, I say "no thankyou, I don't need shoes".

Instead, you trade your shoes to someone who needs them for their money, and then trade your money for my computer.

That's what legal tender laws are, laws that compel us to use a currency we otherwise would not.

This is wholly untrue.

Nothing at all compels you of this.

I can say "for my computer I will trade it for 200lbs of tea".

If you come up and throw down $X FRBN at my feet and take my tea, I will have you arrested, charged, and convicted of theft - because that is not the deal.

Without legal tender laws there would be no need to scrounge up FRNs every time we participated in any economic activity, like we are forced to do so now.

You aren't as amply demonstrated by reality.

 

[Steven Douglas]

Black Flag - for the record, are you opposed to H.R. 1098: Free Competition in Currency Act of 2011?

Specifically, if it was your call all the way - with a stroke of the pen, you make it law or send it forever away, never to be revisited, what would you do?

Even more specifically, a two-part question:

1. Are you opposed to a repeal of legal tender laws?
2. Are you opposed to removing barriers to entry for competing currencies?

 

[Black Flag]

FRN's are nothing more than an artificially forced necessity.

In a competition with any other "currency", FRBN would still probably remain as your money. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

If you do believe otherwise, then you do not have a coherent theory of money.

 

[Black Flag]

Even more specifically, a two-part question:

You are asking for my political opinion - which has not one wit to do with economics or the theory of money.

I tell you that doing "X" will create consequence "Y" - I am not telling you to do or not to do "X".

IF you want "Y", do "X"
If you do not want "Y", do not do "X".

 

[joshnorris14]

Josh, but yes they do. They put them into savings acct., earn interest, and then spend their money in the future.

This isn't really that true. People turn to other asset classes to maintain their wealth, they don't hold that much cash in their portfolio. If FRN's were a store of value, people wouldn't need to go to other asset classes to maintain their wealth

 

[WilliamC]

You keep saying its "illegal" to use anything other FRBN to pay for things - but that is completely untrue.

Well if you are engaged in black market economic activity then you are correct, we can just swap and barter and I won't tell if you don't, and I'm happy with that arrangement.

However, if I don't want to go to jail, then I have to include the government in all my economic transactions, and the government makes it illegal to deal with them in anything other than FRNs.

Since all taxes must be paid in FRNs all economic transactions must therefore be converted to FRNs to determine the amount of tax paid, i.e. I am forced to use FRNs for every economic transaction I make since I am forced to use FRNs to pay the government. If I barter labor for goods for instance, then I am forced to used FRNs to pay either income tax on what I charge for my labor, or capital gains tax if the value of the goods in terms of FRNs has increased since I purchased it, or sales tax for the exchange of the goods themselves.

The illegality comes from trying to avoid using FRNs for economic transactions in order to keep government out of our business.

Why you dispute this is unclear to me.

 

[Black Flag]

This isn't really that true. People turn to other asset classes to maintain their wealth, they don't hold that much cash in their portfolio. If FRN's were a store of value, people wouldn't need to go to other asset classes to maintain their wealth

So, you are saying that moving their money into other assets classes proves that money is not valuable to store

yet!

You do not make this claim equally upon any other specific asset class!

People sell gold to buy T-bills. To you, this does not refute for you that gold is not valuable to store - you claim it still is, just people have changing values.

Yet!
People selling money to buy T-bills, to you, proves money is not valuable to store - people are not changing their values, but abandoning money!

 

[Travlyr]

In a competition with any other "currency", FRBN would still probably remain as your money. There is no reason to believe otherwise.

If you do believe otherwise, then you do not have a coherent theory of money.

FRBN's are not my choice for money. They are forced onto me by law. Remove the law and I quit using them that afternoon.

BTW... That's not theory. That's a FACT!

 

[Black Flag]

Well if you are engaged in black market economic activity then you are correct, we can just swap and barter and I won't tell if you don't, and I'm happy with that arrangement.

So you are telling me you have never traded goods without using FRBN???

PS: If you didn't know, the Black Market almost exclusively uses FRBN for trade.....ever wonder why "money laundering" became an issue for the government??

PSS: Now that raises an interesting point - if, indeed, FRBN is forced on you by government, and given Black Markets exist as a bypass to government, thus, they can use anything their hearts desire for "money" (blindly accepting your argument that the FRBN is forced on people by the government), why does the Black Market almost exclusively still use FRBN????

Steven? .. here is your answer to the 'what would happen if there was competition of currency?' ... Answer: FRBN still wins.

 

[pmbug]

Black Flag - for the record, are you opposed to H.R. 1098: Free Competition in Currency Act of 2011?
...

Oooohhh... My favorite question for paper bugs.

You are asking for my political opinion - blah blah blah...

Not surprising to see BF punted. Answering the question requires some self reflection and an honest justification for one's choice.

 

[WilliamC]

So you are telling me you have never traded goods without using FRBN???

PS: If you didn't know, the Black Market almost exclusively uses FRBN for trade.....ever wonder why "money laundering" became an issue for the government??

PSS: Now that raises an interesting point - if, indeed, FRBN is forced on you by government, and given Black Markets exist as a bypass to government, thus, they can use anything their hearts desire for "money" (blindly accepting your argument that the FRBN is forced on people by the government), why does the Black Market almost exclusively still use FRBN????

Steven? .. here is your answer to the 'what would happen if there was competition of currency?' ... Answer: FRBN still wins.

Your questions no longer reflect any significant understanding of the ongoing conversation.

Thanks for playing though.

 

[Black Flag]

The illegality comes from trying to avoid using FRNs for economic transactions in order to keep government out of our business.

Why you dispute this is unclear to me.

I think the concept you are missing is called fungiblity.

I sell this thing for $1000 in FRBN.
I sell that thing for EUR800.

I have to pay tax on "that thing"... I take the FRBN from the first sale and pay the tax on the second sale.

Where I get FRBN and how I pay tax has no relationship.

 

[Black Flag]

Your questions no longer reflect any significant understanding of the ongoing conversation.

Thanks for playing though.

Ah, as soon as your own understanding bites you in your butt, you abandon the dialogue.

Good job! At least you are as consistent as the common man.

 

[Black Flag]

Oooohhh... My favorite question for paper bugs.



Not surprising to see BF punted. Answering the question requires some self reflection and an honest justification for one's choice.

No reflection is necessary when dealing with a red herring - I understand that you do not understand the differences.

 

[Black Flag]

FRBN's are not my choice for money. They are forced onto me by law. Remove the law and I quit using them that afternoon.

BTW... That's not theory. That's a FACT!

Then quit using them this afternoon. There is no law forcing you.

PS: But be aware everyone else will probably still use them, and you may find it hard to trade your cow or gold coin for a glass of beer.

 

[Black Flag]

[*]Are you opposed to a repeal of legal tender laws?
[*]Are you opposed to removing barriers to entry for competing currencies?
[/LIST]

An economic answer to your politic question:

A government enforced monopoly always creates high costs and lower quality for any good or service under such a monopoly.

If your goal is to reward a small segment of the population with the profits of such monopoly, then this will accomplish that goal.
If your goal is to lower costs and improve quality, then this monopoly will not accomplish that goal.

PS: Understanding this allows you to glean why such a monopoly does, in fact, exist.

 

[Travlyr]

Then quit using them this afternoon. There is no law forcing you.

PS: But be aware everyone else will probably still use them, and you may find it hard to trade your cow or gold coin for a glass of beer.

I think I wait until more people understand the value of legal sound money money first. Thugs in black suits really don't care what you think.

 

[Black Flag]

I think I wait until more people understand the value of legal sound money money first. Thugs in black suits really don't care what you think.

Travlyr, you said "...legal sound money..."

But that is what you have. Legal, sound, money.

 

[WilliamC]

Ah, as soon as your own understanding bites you in your butt, you abandon the dialogue.

Good job! At least you are as consistent as the common man.

No, you just stopped responding to what I was saying.

I understand you want the State to have a legal monopoly on money, and I disagree.

You fail to convince me that I am not forced to use FRNs since I obviously am and you even admit that they must be used to interact with government and pay taxes.

So unless your argument is that I should always engage in illegal economic activity and never interact with government and never pay taxes then you really have nothing useful to contribute, since you contradict yourself.

And I don't want to live the life of an outlaw either.

 

[Black Flag]

I think I wait until more people understand the value of legal sound money money first. Thugs in black suits really don't care what you think.

You do know why he is going to jail, right?

It was not that he paid his people with gold coins - that is not the government's complaint at all, in fact, they couldn't have cared less.

He is going to jail because he evaded taxes and council his employees to evade taxes.

Be careful in your understanding - you may make such a serious mistake as he, and end up in the government's cage.