Money vs Currency. Explaining Gold.

[Black Flag]

The barrier for entry for gold and silver to compete with FRNs as currencies are legal tender laws and capital gains taxes.

Is Warden Norton being purposely obtuse? He be trolling.

Is anyone stopping you from using gold and silver as your means of transactions? No.

Whereas it is true that FRBN, needed for taxes, makes FRBN highly marketable, hence, becomes the money - not because of government making FRBN money, but by the marketability generated by the people using FRBN.

 

[Black Flag]

The barrier of entry is not the money.

It is the banking.

The people chose their own money.
The people cannot chose their banking system.

 

[KMX]

What is a good price for a roll of mercury dimes? Thanks

 

[Seraphim]

Bern is oustandingly correct.

The very usage of gold/silver in transaction is taxable as per the IRS through barter laws (I'm not saying it's morally right, I'm saying it's the laws on the book - and they have the powerful guns).

The barrier IS the taxation and legal tender laws. Enact the legal competition of currencies and remove legal tender laws and people/the market would be ABLE to choose the forms of banking they so choose, UNCOERSED.

Is anyone stopping you from using gold and silver as your means of transactions? No.

Whereas it is true that FRBN, needed for taxes, makes FRBN highly marketable, hence, becomes the money - not because of government making FRBN money, but by the marketability generated by the people using FRBN.

 

[Steven Douglas]

The barrier of entry is not the money.

It is the banking.

The people chose their own money.
The people cannot chose their banking system.

Wow, you don't even know what an economic barrier to entry (not barrier "of" entry) is. You're making up how you think it ought to be defined in order to fit your specious arguments.

A barrier to entry does not mean that entry is physically impossible. Barriers to entry are nothing more than artificial obstacles that make one option artificially less competitive in the market place than others - in other words, a market manipulation. Sometimes they are outright prohibitions (e.g., drug laws). Regulations can also serve as barriers to entry. Mostly they are whatever artificial barriers are imposed that make it economically unfeasible for something to freely compete in the marketplace.

Tariffs are a classic barrier to entry. If a country places a $1,000 per lb. tariff on foreign butter, that would be a barrier to entry. However, I could make your absolutely obtuse and poop-stupid argument that there is no barrier to entry to butter in such a case, because people can still get that foreign butter. All they have to do is pay $1,004.49 per lb. - and it's theirs! See? No barrier to entry!

Legal tender laws are a barrier to entry, as are capital gains taxes on hard specie. State bank notes were literally taxed out of existence in 1863 - that was a barrier to entry for something that already existed, but the artificial taxation barrier served its purpose and drove all such notes completely out of circulation. The fact that people could still "freely" trade in them, so long as they paid the extortion fee levied by government does not mean that there was no barrier to entry.

You listed a bunch of paper currencies from other countries around the world. That was mind-numblingly stupid, because they all have barriers to both entry and exit for currency both within and without various borders (another barrier you overlook) in one form or another.

I'm pretty sure you knew all this, which makes me also pretty sure that you are not interested in honest debate, but are only trolling.

 

[JacobSzumniak]

20 pages and no Rep + peeps?!? lol

 

[WilliamC]

Is anyone stopping you from using gold and silver as your means of transactions? No.

Whereas it is true that FRBN, needed for taxes, makes FRBN highly marketable, hence, becomes the money - not because of government making FRBN money, but by the marketability generated by the people using FRBN.

Magic eight ball says..

 

[Black Flag]

Wow, you don't even know what an economic barrier to entry (not barrier "of" entry) is. You're making up how you think it ought to be defined in order to fit your specious arguments.

Well, of course I do - and your spew here notwithstanding.

A barrier to entry does not mean that entry is physically impossible. Barriers to entry are nothing more than artificial obstacles that make one option artificially less competitive in the market place than others

There is nothing artificial in the choice of money.

The people chose their money, not government.

The fact that people could still "freely" trade in them, so long as they paid the extortion fee levied by government does not mean that there was no barrier to entry.

No such tax exists today to so to interfere with your choice. Your argument here is specious!

You listed a bunch of paper currencies from other countries around the world. That was mind-numblingly stupid, because they all have barriers to both entry and exit for currency both within and without various borders (another barrier you overlook) in one form or another.

Another specious argument.

They do NOT all have such barriers - some do, called currency controls - but those are a vast minority and nothing worth pinning your argument upon.


The people chose their money - this is another fundamental and riveting point Mises made, for it explains perfectly well why money becomes "not money".

 

[WilliamC]

Well, of course I do - and your spew here notwithstanding.

There is nothing artificial in the choice of money.

The people chose their money, not government.

No such tax exists today to so to interfere with your choice. Your argument here is specious!

Another specious argument.

They do NOT all have such barriers - some do, called currency controls - but those are a vast minority and nothing worth pinning your argument upon.

The people chose their money - this is another fundamental and riveting point Mises made, for it explains perfectly well why money becomes "not money".

Magic eight ball says...

 

[Travlyr]

Black Flag, it's been fun reading your garbage. What do you think of gun bans?

 

[William R]

bump

 

[WilliamC]

bump

magic eight ball says...

 

[Black Flag]

Black Flag, it's been fun reading your garbage. What do you think of gun bans?

Why should some people be prevented to have weapons to protect themselves while others -just because they have funny hats- are allowed to have weapons to protect themselves?

 

[WilliamC]

Why should some people be prevented to have weapons to protect themselves while others -just because they have funny hats- are allowed to have weapons to protect themselves?

Magic eight ball says...

 

[airborne373]

Interesting thread until it turned into a petty argument .... thanks black flag. (sarcasm)

Seems to me with such uncertainty about the world political, social & financial environment, owning top commodities like gold and silver is a wise move. Picked up a few ounces from apmex during this recent fall in prices.

 

[Steven Douglas]

A barrier to entry does not mean that entry is physically impossible. Barriers to entry are nothing more than artificial obstacles that make one option artificially less competitive in the market place than others

There is nothing artificial in the choice of money.

The people chose their money, not government.

Nice try at a weak non-sequitur, troll.

I talked about artificial obstacles as barriers to entry as it applies to "other" forms of currency, and you respond with a side-tracking, FRN-centric non-sequitur, arguing from the baseless premise of your worthless theory that the reason FRN's are the dominant currency is that people "chose" it as their form of "money". Forget that it was a reasonably sound, prior-existing currency in a completely different form, one that everyone was dependent on, which got later FULLY hijacked. No, in your mind, people actually "chose" FRN's. They preferred them doncha know. Right from the git-go. And why did they prefer them, according to your noodle-brained theory? Well, because they "wanted" something to pay their taxes with, that's why!

No such tax exists today to so to interfere with your choice. Your argument here is specious!

Stop licking windows and pay attention. If you try to use hard specie (e.g., U.S. minted gold and silver coins) as money, the US Treasury that minted those very coins will not see them as currency, but only commodities. You're not "converting" one currency to another, you're "buying and selling" commodities that are subject to various taxes, capital gains being one of them. Likewise, various states will see those same coins, not as money, but also as taxable commodities, subject to sales tax. Those are barriers to entry.

You're not that daft, that obtuse. You're trolling. I'm pretty sure you knew that already, but I could be wrong. If I'm right, you're just dishonest, that's all. If I'm wrong, and you really didn't know that about capital gains and sales taxes be, then you're incredibly stupid, having missed that to go along with the rest of the knowledge you appear to have.

The people chose their money - this is another fundamental and riveting point Mises made, for it explains perfectly well why money becomes "not money".

How does your argument square with a currency that went from fully redeemable at times for gold and/or silver, to only sometimes redeemable, to not redeemable at all. Was that also a market choice, each step of the way, made by individuals? When a government "chooses" to demonetize a given metal as currency, is that also the "choice" of the people (aka - individuals in the market)?

 

[WilliamC]

Interesting thread until it turned into a petty argument .... thanks black flag. (sarcasm)

Seems to me with such uncertainty about the world political, social & financial environment, owning top commodities like gold and silver is a wise move. Picked up a few ounces from apmex during this recent fall in prices.

magic eight ball says...

 

[Black Flag]

Interesting thread until it turned into a petty argument .... thanks black flag. (sarcasm)

Seems to me with such uncertainty about the world political, social & financial environment, owning top commodities like gold and silver is a wise move. Picked up a few ounces from apmex during this recent fall in prices.

It is what the rich and the central bankers do - however, if you are not rich nor a central banker, it would be more effective to stock on goods that you would need during political, social or financial distress.

 

[Black Flag]

Nice try at a weak non-sequitur, troll.

Hahahhaha

Riiighhht!

I talked about artificial obstacles as barriers to entry as it applies to "other" forms of currency, and you respond with a side-tracking, FRN-centric non-sequitur, arguing from the baseless premise of your worthless theory that the reason FRN's are the dominant currency is that people "chose" it as their form of "money".

There is no such barrier.

You can import whatever currency you want and use it with no restrictions - you can price your goods in terms of that currency, and insist on trade with it.

What is stopping you?

Nothing.

. No, in your mind, people actually "chose" FRN's.

In fact they did, as they are using exactly that.

Now, you can argue against Mises - however, I have found that he rarely loses...

If you try to use hard specie (e.g., U.S. minted gold and silver coins) as money, the US Treasury that minted those very coins will not see them as currency, but only commodities.

What the US Treasury sees is of no concern to me or anyone else.
If they decided to use blueberries wouldn't change a thing either - unless, they demand blueberries as payment for taxes - then, eventually, blueberries would become money - not because the government said it was money, but because people needed to pay their taxes would trade in blueberries, and by that marketability, blueberries would become money.

 

[Black Flag]

How does your argument square with a currency that went from fully redeemable at times for gold and/or silver, to only sometimes redeemable, to not redeemable at all. Was that also a market choice, each step of the way, made by individuals? When a government "chooses" to demonetize a given metal as currency, is that also the "choice" of the people (aka - individuals in the market)?

Precisely.

The actual economic good changed, as did the money.

Money is merely the most marketable good - and yes, the US removed gold making it illegal. The people picked up the most marketable - FRBN - as a replacement.

I don't judge whether the choice made by Americans is right or wrong - but they accepted it. They could have revolted against it, but they didn't - they accepted the FRBN and here we are.