Mitt's Magical Mormon Undies: Penn Jillette's Rant Redux

[Sola_Fide]

it is objective, i'm not supposing anything, or appealing to emotion. i did make a statement with general facts. you are now welcomed to open up your bible and read whatever you want out of it.
if you are curious about my claims, reread the entire thing with the ideas i've expressed in mind. see where they fail and why.

Your mind is sinful. It is not objective. Your mind is at enmity with God. You show this by rejecting the Biblical view of inspiration: which is that all of God's Word is breathed out by God.

Not objective...at all. The mere fact that you think you can be objective on this issue is the sign that you are hopelessly biased.

 

[jmdrake]

i'm not going to dig through boxes at my parent's house to find a notebook i may have of notes from that class, but i can give you what i remember from a decade ago-
read the early books, especially ecclesiastes and job, you will see that people only speak of reward and punishment from god in this life. there is never a mention of a hell or a heaven, or a reward or punishment after death. the only after death thought was that of hades or just a neutral world of dead(the closest reference of life after death prior to the Macabians. This is where the catholics get their idea of purgatory


before then- you were just dead. and your were dead until the day the messiah came and your were resurrected here on earth to live in his kingdom. que the prophecy of Daniel.
this is where controversy begins:
Is Jesus the messiah that Daniel told us about?
are the dead resurrected?
or did he mean they would be alive in an alter plane of "heaven or hell"?
was Revelations written as a Daniel rewrite for a messiah rewrite?
.
can you guess how deep that class got?

There's a difference between saying there is "no concept of heaven or hell" in the old testament, and that there is "no concept of heaven or hell preached as preached by most Christians". Revelation, which tracks Daniel, talks about the "new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven". Isaiah also talks about there being a "new heaven and a new earth". And Daniel mentions that in the resurrection some will be "raised to everlasting life" and others "to everlasting contempt". The idea of hell being a place that people go to before the resurrection is a rather new one. The only Biblical reference to that is the parable of the rich man and Lazurus. It's interesting that while every other parable in the Bible is interpreted symbolically, some chose to interpret that one literally.

 

[torchbearer]

There's a difference between saying there is "no concept of heaven or hell" in the old testament, and that there is "no concept of heaven or hell preached as preached by most Christians". Revelation, which tracks Daniel, talks about the "new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven". Isaiah also talks about there being a "new heaven and a new earth". And Daniel mentions that in the resurrection some will be "raised to everlasting life" and others "to everlasting contempt". The idea of hell being a place that people go to before the resurrection is a rather new one. The only Biblical reference to that is the parable of the rich man and Lazurus. It's interesting that while every other parable in the Bible is interpreted symbolically, some chose to interpret that one literally.

i was speaking about the modern day idea of a metaphysical place your metaphysical spirit goes... resurrection for us means, a spirit going somewhere.
that is a newer concept. the idea had to adapt to advancements in human understanding.

in early writings, heaven literally was in the sky. that is where the prophets took their flaming chariots. que alien conspiracy on history channel.

 

[jmdrake]

i was speaking about the modern day idea of a metaphysical place your metaphysical spirit goes... resurrection for us means, a spirit going somewhere.
that is a newer concept. the idea had to adapt to advancements in human understanding.

Except not all Christians believe the "metaphysical place your metaphysical spirit" goes. Some Christians believe that nobody receives the promise of heaven until the first resurrection or the punishment of hell until the second.

in early writings, heaven literally was in the sky. that is where the prophets took their flaming chariots. que alien conspiracy on history channel.

The early writings distinguished between at least two heavens (the sky and the cosmos). Also the New Jerusalem "coming down out of heaven" is not incompatible with the "flaming chariot" argument you are making. Some modern Christians see heaven that way.

 

[libertariantexas]

Before this gets moved to Religion, I'll put it there myself.



I personally believe that this topic is a HIGHLY relevant discussion for a politics thread, but I'll save the mod's effort from moving it to religion.

Good stuff, thanks.

 

[TonySutton]

Maybe Romney should wear a fundoshi

 

[Mr. Perfidy]

So I can break the code for mr jillette.

The blank is actually:


"My parents and authority figures told me it was literal, so despite not actually experiencing anything from that perspective, and despite never once seeing any evidence that any of that is possible, I found a way to make it true symbolically, and after years of psychological torment trying to twist the reality of my senses into something that conforms to mommy's gratitude, I can successfully invoke these ideas when I need approval. And I don't want to think about being lied to by people that love me."

 

[jmdrake]

Of course Mr. Jillette says in the same video that he believes the virgin birth to be just as crazy, only "more modern". And since Ron Paul is a confirmed Christian........

Really folks. Is there anyone here who, if Ron Paul was a Mormon, would quit supporting him for that reason alone? Because I wouldn't. And yes if Ron Paul was an atheist, but otherwise supported all of the same positions I would vote for him as well.

 

[torchbearer]

Of course Mr. Jillette says in the same video that he believes the virgin birth to be just as crazy, only "more modern". And since Ron Paul is a confirmed Christian........

Really folks. Is there anyone here who, if Ron Paul was a Mormon, would quit supporting him for that reason alone? Because I wouldn't. And yes if Ron Paul was an atheist, but otherwise supported all of the same positions I would vote for him as well.

Ron and I are not clones of each other, but i support him 100%.
I'm ok with his Jesus, not ok with the Jesus sold at the local JesusRacket Vendor.

 

[torchbearer]

In my view- The Jesus Ron knows is a person of tolerance.
The Jesus the Religious Right/Neocons peddle is intolerant and xenophobic.

 

[jmdrake]

In my view- The Jesus Ron knows is a person of tolerance.
The Jesus the Religious Right/Neocons peddle is intolerant and xenophobic.

In my view Ron's Jesus is consistent. He doesn't say the murder of unborn children in the U.S. is wrong, but the murder of children in Iraq and other places either through bombs or crippling economic sanctions is okay. Nor does he say "Let's protect all of the babies in all the world as long as they make it out of their mother's womb, but let's not even consider protecting the babies who are unborn." Ron's Jesus would say to sinners "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more". Thus He would neither condone sin nor condemn the sinner. I think Ron's Jesus would allow for competing currencies. Under His system you'd only be taxed if you accepted the government currency. After all, He specifically pointed out Caesar's inscription on a Roman coin when He said "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars."

 

[RonRules]

Here's where I would draw the line:

If Ron was a Mormon, I'd vote for him.
If Ron was a Scientologist, I would not.

Scientology is a criminal enterprise masquerading as a religion, that's why. (Although some people would say that about Mormonism)

 

[torchbearer]

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars."

to me, it always seemed like Jesus was not much concerned with earthly matters. the focus was on the Kingdom. the one that is to come.
which is probably why most Jews didn't view jesus as the messiah. the prophet daniel had them expecting the new jeruselum to come with the messiah.
i've been tempted to do character profiles of people in the gospels.

 

[RonRules]

Richard Dawkins & Lawrence Krauss - Mitt Romney's Mormonism



Dawkins: "Do you want to vote for a president who believes such palpably foolish things?