Mitt's Magical Mormon Undies: Penn Jillette's Rant Redux

[Danke]

AK-15?

 

[James Madison]

the idea of the blank paged bible was to express the idea that there was no original bible, which threw out the idea that god came down from the clouds and handed the pope a book of his words for the people to worship.
now- we have to start to look at each scroll, find its origin and understand the culture, people and happenings of that time to make a context.
the class begins at the beginning... and let me tell you- when you start to realize the early writers had no concept of heaven and hell, and that the ideas come in later- you start to see a record of human conciousness captured in story.

How is that controversial? Sounds like a discussion of real, 1st Century Christianity. That is, Christianity before the Vatican took control.

 

[torchbearer]

AK-15?

i figured he was thinking ar-15.
if he was reading teleprompter- it may have been mispelled.

 

[Danke]

i figured he was thinking ar-15.
if he was reading teleprompter- it may have been mispelled.

Or he may be bat-shit crazy.

 

[torchbearer]

How is that controversial? Sounds like a discussion of real, 1st Century Christianity. That is, Christianity before the Vatican took control.

apparently a lot of protestant(first baptist) churches are led by ignorant preachers who teach a version of the bible that suits their purpose(my guess- financial donations in collection plate) and not one based on reality- as most of these kids had a totally different idea of the bible and jesus than the ones that are presented in the text and context.
the old testament is brutal. it is way out of touch with our american culture. and then, jesus not being a commercialized santa man of usury and earthly possessionism totally destroys their world view.

 

[torchbearer]

Or he may be bat-shit crazy.

I don't think he has completely ruled that out. I haven't ruled out that i'm not bat-shit crazy.
Everyone arounds me think we must vote romney because, well, you know, obama.
I think they are crazy, but i'm just a member of a few who think that to vote for either obombya or robomneycare is insane. either just the few of us are crazy or the vast majority of the other monkeys are delusional. which is more likely?

 

[Yieu]

It is not cool to attack someone's religion, not at all.

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[torchbearer]

let me give my endorsement of Louisiana College:
their theology classes were so awesome that an atheist or agnostic could take their religious program and enjoy it because they keep all doors open. in all discussions all points are available for debate, and the professors have enough self-esteem and confidence to allow for a very real stimulating debate on theology and divinity.
In such an environment, real knowledge is gained.
Some people calling it "attacking religion", some people call it competing ideas coming to a better conclusion.

 

[Yieu]

I don't think anyone has claimed you were attacking religion.

 

[torchbearer]

I don't think anyone has claimed you were attacking religion.

then let me add the context i left out- the things Penn was talking about were things that were asked and discussed in that class. no one could defend the nutty. by the end- the most ardent of the religious could only claim that the writings were done by people of limited understanding and what they saw was translated to written language in the simplest of ways. that was the best rationale for bat-shit crazy events in the bible.

 

[Sola_Fide]

the idea of the blank paged bible was to express the idea that there was no original bible, which threw out the idea that god came down from the clouds and handed the pope a book of his words for the people to worship.
now- we have to start to look at each scroll, find its origin and understand the culture, people and happenings of that time to make a context.
the class begins at the beginning... and let me tell you- when you start to realize the early writers had no concept of heaven and hell, and that the ideas come in later- you start to see a record of human conciousness captured in story.

Wow. That's a real interesting view. Hmmm....where to start...

Could you give an example of an early writer who had "no concept of heaven of hell", and example of the textual evidence that this idea came in later?

 

[torchbearer]

for instance- when it says someone is hundreds of years old in the bible- it was either at literary sign of respect of that the calender of the time was of a different type than ours. though the literary sign of respect is push harder than the latter.

 

[Sola_Fide]

for instance- when it says someone is hundreds of years old in the bible- it was either at literary sign of respect of that the calender of the time was of a different type than ours. though the literary sign of respect is push harder than the latter.

So, the Hebrews had a "different calender"? Interesting. Do you think the Jews thought that a year was really 5 years? Is that what you're saying?

 

[torchbearer]

Wow. That's a real interesting view. Hmmm....where to start...

Could you give an example of an early writer who had "no concept of heaven of hell", and example of the textual evidence that this idea came in later?

i'm not going to dig through boxes at my parent's house to find a notebook i may have of notes from that class, but i can give you what i remember from a decade ago-
read the early books, especially ecclesiastes and job, you will see that people only speak of reward and punishment from god in this life. there is never a mention of a hell or a heaven, or a reward or punishment after death. the only after death thought was that of hades or just a neutral world of dead(the closest reference of life after death prior to the Macabians. This is where the catholics get their idea of purgatory

Maccabees 12:46:

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.​

before then- you were just dead. and your were dead until the day the messiah came and your were resurrected here on earth to live in his kingdom. que the prophecy of Daniel.
this is where controversy begins:
Is Jesus the messiah that Daniel told us about?
are the dead resurrected?
or did he mean they would be alive in an alter plane of "heaven or hell"?
was Revelations written as a Daniel rewrite for a messiah rewrite?

can you guess how deep that class got?

 

[torchbearer]

So, the Hebrews had a "different calender"? Interesting. Do you think the Jews thought that a year was really 5 years? Is that what you're saying?

I'm not advocating that position because i never saw any proof of it. i was just putting out different things that came up in the class.
i'd pay to take another one. i really enjoyed them. maybe that is why i come off as assholish in most religious threads. i'm used to open, pointed discussion with true honesty. if something sounds queer to me- i should say so.

 

[James Madison]

Wow. That's a real interesting view. Hmmm....where to start...

Could you give an example of an early writer who had "no concept of heaven of hell", and example of the textual evidence that this idea came in later?

Heaven most likely exists, albeit in an abstract manner. Possibly a separate diminsion with completely different laws of physics.

The modern concept of Hell is a combination of Egyptian, Greco-Roman, and Babylonian mythology. It simply isn't real. Those who do not accept Christ are simply destroyed; they are not tortured for eternity.

 

[Sola_Fide]

i'm not going to dig through boxes at my parent's house to find a notebook i may have of notes from that class, but i can give you what i remember from a decade ago-
read the early books, especially ecclesiastes and job, you will see that people only speak of reward and punishment from god in this life. there is never a mention of a hell or a heaven, or a reward or punishment after death. the only after death thought was that of hades or just a neutral world of dead(the closest reference of life after death prior to the Macabians. This is where the catholics get their idea of purgatory


before then- you were just dead. and your were dead until the day the messiah came and your were resurrected here on earth to live in his kingdom. que the prophecy of Daniel.
this is where controversy begins:
Is Jesus the messiah that Daniel told us about?
are the dead resurrected?
or did he mean they would be alive in an alter plane of "heaven or hell"?
was Revelations written as a Daniel rewrite for a messiah rewrite?

can you guess how deep that class got?

So the book of Ecclesiastes does not speak about heaven?

Ecclesiastes 5:2 NIV

Do not be quick with your mouth,
do not be hasty in your heart
to utter anything before God.
God is in heaven
and you are on earth,
so let your words be few.

 

[torchbearer]

So the book of Ecclesiastes does not speak about heaven?

it was stating that god was in the sky and you were on the ground.

Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the
presence of God. For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let
your words be few.

we go back to the greek and hebrew.
it did not dictate that man goes to heaven.
god is in heaven. you are on earth.
you are beneath Him.
not once does it say you will go up to him.
(doesn't it sound like the author is telling you to stop bothering god with your minor problems?)

 

[fr33]

People that say it's unacceptable to criticize a person's religion should try being an atheist living in the bible belt.

I try not to criticize it but it's not like they can leave me alone....

 

[torchbearer]

I must say this too: though the professors never said so- to me, they seemed to be a different kind of religious person(kinda christian). they still beleived in a god- but they saw the bible as a prism by which the words are written by the limits of the knowledge of each author. they don't think it is the actual words of god. but they believe that the advancement of the the tribe of humans is guided by this god and that the growth of this child is seen throughout the bible. as we grow as a people so does our understanding of our creator.