Under a somewhat socialist society (like ours,) money is taken by force from people in the form of taxes and then redistributed. The redistribution is rarely based on the amount of money paid in taxes - this is important. Because you receive largely the same benefits regardless of taxes paid, people who are here illegally and paying next to no taxes receive the same benefits as those paying taxes at the normal rate. What bugs me about many Democrats position is that they like high taxes on wealthy people, which means individual rich people pay vastly more in actual dollars for their use of roads, bridges, and the availability of welfare and public schooling (which they don't even use.) If you decide to redistribute money by force, why is citizenship a factor? It clearly isn't because non-citizens don't pay enough taxes, because the social programs don't take into account how much taxes you pay. A better solution is to simply have people pay their own way, with non-mandatory charity taking up the slack. This is the libertarian position as I see it, and there is no reason non-citizens can't participate.
Missing the point - immigration
- Thread starter Wasbeer
- Start date
There are other factors to consider than just the forced redistribution of wealth when it comes to immigration. This documentary explores some of these factors:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265
Many people who are in this country illegally do not pay income tax at all. Most of them have no health insurance. But they get health care free. It's federal law that hospitals can not turn them down. Drop by the ER at any hospital in a border state and see what the wait times are like, and then look at who's in there. You won't hear too much English being spoken.
The government is SUPPOSED to pay the hospitals back for the care they provide to illegals. Two problems with that. One, it doesn't always happen. And two, where did that money come from? You and me, the tax payers.
There are many problems tied to illegal immigration. Stopping the flood (yes it is a flood. Come down here to the AZ desert and you will see) of illegals will go a long way toward fixing a lot of economic problems. Don't think we'll have people to do "the jobs American's won't do"? Well we got a few million people on Welfare, lets tell them to take a job or the welfare check stops coming. I can go on and on with the problems and solutions to this. But what I mentioned just beings to scratch the surface. If you don't support Ron Paul's immigration policies then you really need to read up on the issue further because you simply don't understand the problems.
The government is SUPPOSED to pay the hospitals back for the care they provide to illegals. Two problems with that. One, it doesn't always happen. And two, where did that money come from? You and me, the tax payers.
There are many problems tied to illegal immigration. Stopping the flood (yes it is a flood. Come down here to the AZ desert and you will see) of illegals will go a long way toward fixing a lot of economic problems. Don't think we'll have people to do "the jobs American's won't do"? Well we got a few million people on Welfare, lets tell them to take a job or the welfare check stops coming. I can go on and on with the problems and solutions to this. But what I mentioned just beings to scratch the surface. If you don't support Ron Paul's immigration policies then you really need to read up on the issue further because you simply don't understand the problems.
weatherbill
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the welfare is busting local and state budgets as well!
This is the promotion of irresponsible economics.
This is the promotion of irresponsible economics.
Dieseler
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Benefits to Employers that Use illegal Labor
Employers such as contractors who hire them benefit from.............
1) They never put them on Workmans comp. Insurance which is a huge advantage over contractors who hire Americans.
2) Never have to worry about matching SSI tax at end of year which is a huge advantage over contractors who hire Americans, and creates a huge deficit in what should actually have been going to the SS pool.
3) If they are hurt on the job all they need do is drop them off at an emergency room and drive away. See example 1).
4) A House built under the conditions above sells no cheaper to an American citizen than one built by American Labor. Huge Profits from Illegal labor.
Myths about Illegal Labor........................
1) People have a misconception that they work really cheap. They usually draw a cash wage or check ( That Wal-Mart is happy to cash with whatever Id they have) that rivals or exceeds what employers are willing to pay Americans due to the Points above. I know guys who are happy to pay a mexican Illegal $12.00 an hour due to the lack of paper work involved vs. paying an American even $8.00 an hour.
2) Poor Immigrant families come here for a better life. Fact = It is mainly adult males who come Illegally to work construction jobs. Go to Wal-Mart after day working hours and see how many mexican males vs. mexican females are there. All you will see shopping and following your 12 year daughters around with bad intent are mexican males. try it, be honest. What do you see?
3) Americans will not do this work. Bullshit. Fact = This myth is propagated by the people that wish to hire Illegals due to the lack of paperwork and taxes they have to deal with in hiring Americans.
Disadvantages to American Citizens caused by Illegals....................
1) Illegals working in America effects the poor more than anyone else negatively and thats why the government doesn't care to fix the problem.
2) It may be that some Americans actually benefit from not working due to benefits received from welfare programs as opposed to competing with Illegals due to the disparity in wages caused by government red tape. American $8.00 an Hour compared to tax free Illegal $12.00 an hour. The benefits often outweigh the wage. The poor aren't stupid in feeling this way.
3) I hear that Illegals also qualify for welfare benefits to. So they are crippling the system on both sides of the argument above.
Feel free to to add to this list for me.
Employers such as contractors who hire them benefit from.............
1) They never put them on Workmans comp. Insurance which is a huge advantage over contractors who hire Americans.
2) Never have to worry about matching SSI tax at end of year which is a huge advantage over contractors who hire Americans, and creates a huge deficit in what should actually have been going to the SS pool.
3) If they are hurt on the job all they need do is drop them off at an emergency room and drive away. See example 1).
4) A House built under the conditions above sells no cheaper to an American citizen than one built by American Labor. Huge Profits from Illegal labor.
Myths about Illegal Labor........................
1) People have a misconception that they work really cheap. They usually draw a cash wage or check ( That Wal-Mart is happy to cash with whatever Id they have) that rivals or exceeds what employers are willing to pay Americans due to the Points above. I know guys who are happy to pay a mexican Illegal $12.00 an hour due to the lack of paper work involved vs. paying an American even $8.00 an hour.
2) Poor Immigrant families come here for a better life. Fact = It is mainly adult males who come Illegally to work construction jobs. Go to Wal-Mart after day working hours and see how many mexican males vs. mexican females are there. All you will see shopping and following your 12 year daughters around with bad intent are mexican males. try it, be honest. What do you see?
3) Americans will not do this work. Bullshit. Fact = This myth is propagated by the people that wish to hire Illegals due to the lack of paperwork and taxes they have to deal with in hiring Americans.
Disadvantages to American Citizens caused by Illegals....................
1) Illegals working in America effects the poor more than anyone else negatively and thats why the government doesn't care to fix the problem.
2) It may be that some Americans actually benefit from not working due to benefits received from welfare programs as opposed to competing with Illegals due to the disparity in wages caused by government red tape. American $8.00 an Hour compared to tax free Illegal $12.00 an hour. The benefits often outweigh the wage. The poor aren't stupid in feeling this way.
3) I hear that Illegals also qualify for welfare benefits to. So they are crippling the system on both sides of the argument above.
Feel free to to add to this list for me.
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At this point I think I've heard most of the arguments against immigration, and they're all utilitarian arguments (I'm not a utilitarian) with sprinkles of xenophobia. The way to deal with the issue, it seems to me, is to deny benefits to immigrants (legal or otherwise), unless they're user fee based. That should take care of the utilitarian arguments. As a libertarian, I can't support closed borders, and unlike my friend Walter Block, I don't see it as a gray area for libertarians.
BTW, anyone interested in this discussion is welcome to check out a thead I started in Mises.com:
http://mises.com/forums/t/854.aspx
Be sure though to read the entire thing...lots of twists and turns.
BTW, anyone interested in this discussion is welcome to check out a thead I started in Mises.com:
http://mises.com/forums/t/854.aspx
Be sure though to read the entire thing...lots of twists and turns.
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Minuteman2008
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Anyone dealing in the real world rather than some theoretical bubble should realize that completely open borders would result in the election of a socialist government within a generation. The planet adds a net of 80 million people per year, mostly in the third world. We can't make a dent in that number through immigration. All we can manage to do is wreck everything this nation has built up in our history if we keep the floodgates wide open.
It is depressing that Democrats, libertarians, and neoconservatives all want defacto open borders. I don't expect the government to shape American culture, language and traditions. But I do expect them not to purposely destroy traditional America by deliberately altering the composition of the nation in order to pave the way for some form of world government by watering down any resistance to it.
It is depressing that Democrats, libertarians, and neoconservatives all want defacto open borders. I don't expect the government to shape American culture, language and traditions. But I do expect them not to purposely destroy traditional America by deliberately altering the composition of the nation in order to pave the way for some form of world government by watering down any resistance to it.
0zzy
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Wait, why? Ron Paul is against welfare in general.
I continually argue about immigration with Ron Paul supporters and always give the same answer. IMO, you're blaming the wrong people and coming up with a solution that punishes people who've done nothing wrong. RP says he believes in the libertarian non-aggression principle, that people should be free to do what they wish so long as they are not aggressing against others. Immigrants are not aggressing against anyone.
If you think "illegals" are taking advantage of the welfare state, deny them access to it. Problem solved. But you're problem isn't with the immigrants but the welfare state and those who enforce it. Unless you're problem really is the immigrants themselves, that they pose a threat in some other, unspoken, way. Given the recent TNR story, it certainly makes me wonder what is really going on here.
If you think "illegals" are taking advantage of the welfare state, deny them access to it. Problem solved. But you're problem isn't with the immigrants but the welfare state and those who enforce it. Unless you're problem really is the immigrants themselves, that they pose a threat in some other, unspoken, way. Given the recent TNR story, it certainly makes me wonder what is really going on here.
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Dieseler
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Oh hell, these immigrants really aren't so bad,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDUIxJJbP00&feature=related
What ya think about that?
it's not about illegal immigrants. its impossible to tell an illegal immigrant from a legal one without a national id card. illegal immigrants come from all continents. people just don't want mexican looking people hanging around in their neighborhoods.
I'd agree that the problem is welfare, not immigration itself.
As a true libertarian, I support open borders.
If we had open borders and migrants come here and voted, their vote is protected by free speech. To deny immigration because of the speech or expression of these people is tantamount to censorship.
Under a libertarian system there's nothing they can do. Looking Mexican is protected by freedom of expression.
jkm1864
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My uncle used to live in a decent middle class neighborhood. I went to his house for christmas the other day and the area he lived in looked like little mexico. You know the cop cars everywhere and run down business or no business what soever in the neighborhood. His neighbors were illegals that came here had a anchor baby and now stay here living on the system. These illegals are living in a hud home for free with electricity and all bills paid for. This house is a nice middle class home which would cost me about 1600 a month to maintain with mortage and bills. These people were telling him they were going to have 7 kids because they make more money per kid. This here is the problem with this damn country and the government is actually rewarding illegal and stupid behavior while taxing me 3.5k a month and I can barely afford to live. The government needs to reevaluate wealth because as far as I am concerned that person is alot more wealthy than me. I define being rich as the time that You can actually not work ever again and never have to worry about paying You're bills ever again. This is pathetic because the middle class has to worry about lay offs and medical disasters every year while these As&holes don't have to worry about crap. All I can say is if the economy crashes and one of these people not getting a check again try to break into my house I will have no problems putting them down. I should feel sorry for saying that but I do not feel sorry and I really feel its my moral right to do that because I have been oppressed by this evil taxation and welfare system. Kinda funny what the bible says because the book of revelations is starting to become a reality and the people that deny it must be the most ignorant people on earth.
Lord Xar
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You can't wax poetic all you like, but the proof is in the pudding. Your ideals, which MANY libertarians do not bulge on, are like armchair generals. Never practical, only theoretical.
You create circular arguments. Nobody denies that the government and its policies are to blame, but you cannot relinquish ALL responsibility from those who come here illegally. See, you are basing your theories off of your beliefts - that nobody is really illegal. That is where things run amock. Theoretical vs. practical. They are illegal, they are breaking the law. SO, as an american citizen I do have a right to be upset. I do have a right that somene knowingly steals from the mouths and resources from my fellow countrymen. BECAUSE, the government is corrupt and MY countrymen are not represented, therefore I can put some blame on the illegals.
I cannot wave away any responsibility from a thief because someone leaves their windows open, and the police are slow to respond.
If I had my druthers, round them all up and ship them the phuk out. Sorry. Just how I feel. Lets do it LEGALLY and by the book. You know, the rules.
Carl Corey
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This is basically the argument of the past 70 years of egalitarians against genetic determinists.
Egalitarians believe that illegal immigrants are poorly educated and willing to break the law because they're poor and have no opportunities back home. They're of the opinion that public education and a job will likely turn the children of these criminals into model citizens.
Genetic determinists believe that illegal immigrants are poorly educated because they lack the ability, and willing to break the law for mutual reasons. They're of the opinion that the children of these criminals are unlikely to become model citizens no matter the opportunities given to them because they lack the ability to compete in a free society.
I'm not sure what the utilitarian argument has to do with the immigration question. You might very well be advocating negative utilitarianism.
JeNNiF00F00
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They need to be sending them to Iraq.
I believe the libertarian argument for open borders is flawed. Sure, government handouts and freebies are also problems but it runs deeper than that.
Imagine for example that the we have made the united States into a libertarian utopia in the future. Government is extremely limited, taxes are so low they are hardly noticeable, and militarily we aren't involved in other countries' wars. Now lets assume we had closed borders until we achieved this utopia, but we decide to open the borders completely. Anyone from any country can come here and is immediately granted citizenship and the ability to vote.
It would probably take less than a year for our utopia to be destroyed. Millions, maybe a billion + people would descend into the country, many from countries that have never known the least bit of freedom.
We have to realize that most of the world is happy to live in tyranny. Most of the history of the world has been a picture of a man with his boot on the throat of another man. People do NOT cherish liberty! More often than not people are very willing to live under the domination of some despot or dictator, or at least a 'republic' so corrupt its not distinguishable from a dictatorship. Just look at our own United States and see how few percentage of the populace support Ron Paul. People will put up with anything.
With open borders China could send 500 million people here for political conquest. And who could stop them? They'd have a right to vote and be citizens. More than likely they would tear down everything we worked so hard to build.
In an ideal world-if men actually yearned to be free, sure we could have open borders. But the truth is that men have no problem with their own slavery, and we need to be discerning of who we allow to be citizens in this country. What we don't need are more statists, socialists and looters. But unfortunately, that's most of the rest of the world. Hell, we have enough of them in our own country.
Imagine for example that the we have made the united States into a libertarian utopia in the future. Government is extremely limited, taxes are so low they are hardly noticeable, and militarily we aren't involved in other countries' wars. Now lets assume we had closed borders until we achieved this utopia, but we decide to open the borders completely. Anyone from any country can come here and is immediately granted citizenship and the ability to vote.
It would probably take less than a year for our utopia to be destroyed. Millions, maybe a billion + people would descend into the country, many from countries that have never known the least bit of freedom.
We have to realize that most of the world is happy to live in tyranny. Most of the history of the world has been a picture of a man with his boot on the throat of another man. People do NOT cherish liberty! More often than not people are very willing to live under the domination of some despot or dictator, or at least a 'republic' so corrupt its not distinguishable from a dictatorship. Just look at our own United States and see how few percentage of the populace support Ron Paul. People will put up with anything.
With open borders China could send 500 million people here for political conquest. And who could stop them? They'd have a right to vote and be citizens. More than likely they would tear down everything we worked so hard to build.
In an ideal world-if men actually yearned to be free, sure we could have open borders. But the truth is that men have no problem with their own slavery, and we need to be discerning of who we allow to be citizens in this country. What we don't need are more statists, socialists and looters. But unfortunately, that's most of the rest of the world. Hell, we have enough of them in our own country.
