Minarchism

Alright, I only have one question, I won't get into everything else. Are states not naturally formed? That was where I was getting at with "natural monopoly" - the formation of a state from an anarchic society.

Again, it comes down to the ideas people hold. It's like asking if slavery is "naturally formed"... if people believe they have the right to enslave people, then yes it will "naturally" form. If they don't then a few people might still try, but they will be considered criminals by the vast majority.

You can look at it this way: society at large would not stand for the institutionalization of chattel slavery at this point. 100% eradication is a utopian ideal, and still exists in the world, and any bad actor can kidnap someone and try to control them. But it's no longer institutionalized in the fabric of the vast majority of society for the most part. It once was, but we've largely moved past it, because people hold different ideas about it's necessity and the morality of it.

Also, on the topic of the formation of the state:

http://mises.org/daily/4755

Franz Oppenheimer said:
The Genesis of the State

One single force impels all life; one force developed it, from the single cell, the particle of albumen floating about in the warm ocean of prehistoric time, up to the vertebrates, and then to man. This one force is the tendency to provide for life, bifurcated into "hunger and love."

In the beginning of human society, and as it gradually develops, this tendency pushes itself forward in various bizarre ideas called "superstition." These are based on purely logical conclusions from incomplete observations concerning air and water, earth and fire, animals and plants, which seem endowed with a throng of spirits both kindly and malevolent. One may say that in the most recent modern times, at a stage attained only by very few races, there arises also the younger daughter of the desire for causation, namely science, as a logical result of complete observation of facts — science, now required to exterminate widely branched-out superstition, which, with innumerable threads, has rooted itself in the very soul of mankind.

But, however powerfully, especially in the moment of "ecstasy," superstition may have influenced history, however powerfully, even in ordinary times, it may have cooperated in the development of human communal life, the principal force of development is still to be found in the necessities of life, which force man to acquire for himself and for his family nourishment, clothing and housing. This remains, therefore, the "economic" impulse. A sociological — and that means a sociopsychological — investigation of the development of history can, therefore, not progress otherwise than by following out the methods by which economic needs have been satisfied in their gradual unfolding, and by taking heed of the influences of the causation impulse at its proper place.

Political and Economic Means

There are two fundamentally opposed means whereby man, requiring sustenance, is impelled to obtain the necessary means for satisfying his desires. These are work and robbery, one's own labor and the forcible appropriation of the labor of others.

Robbery! Forcible appropriation! These words convey to us ideas of crime and the penitentiary, since we are the contemporaries of a developed civilization, specifically based on the inviolability of property. And this tang is not lost when we are convinced that land and sea robbery is the primitive relation of life, just as the warrior's trade — which also for a long time is only organized mass robbery constitutes the most respected of occupations. Both because of this, and also on account of the need of having, in the further development of this study, terse, clear, sharply opposing terms for these very important contrasts, I propose in the following discussion to call one's own labor and the equivalent exchange of one's own labor for the labor of others, the "economic means" for the satisfaction of needs, while the unrequited appropriation of the labor of others will be called the "political means."

The idea is not altogether new; philosophers of history have at all times found this contradiction and have tried to formulate it. But no one of these formulae has carried the premise to its complete logical end. At no place is it clearly shown that the contradiction consists only in the means by which the identical purpose, the acquisition of economic objects of consumption, is to be obtained. Yet this is the critical point of the reasoning.

In the case of a thinker of the rank of Karl Marx, one may observe what confusion is brought about when economic purpose and economic means are not strictly differentiated. All those errors, which in the end led Marx's splendid theory so far away from truth, were grounded in the lack of clear differentiation between the means of economic satisfaction of needs and its end. This led him to designate slavery as an "economic category," and force as an "economic force" — half-truths that are far more dangerous than total untruths, since their discovery is more difficult, and false conclusions from them are inevitable.

On the other hand, our own sharp differentiation between the two means toward the same end will help us to avoid any such confusion. This will be our key to an understanding of the development, the essence, and the purpose of the state; and since all universal history heretofore has been only the history of states, to an understanding of universal history as well. All world history, from primitive times up to our own civilization, presents a single phase, a contest namely between the economic and the political means; and it can present only this phase until we have achieved free citizenship.

Peoples Without a State: Huntsmen and Grubbers

The state is an organization of the political means.

No state, therefore, can come into being until the economic means has created a definite number of objects for the satisfaction of needs, which objects may be taken away or appropriated by warlike robbery. For that reason, primitive huntsmen are without a state; and even the more highly developed huntsmen become parts of a state structure only when they find in their neighborhood an evolved economic organization that they can subjugate. But primitive huntsmen live in practical anarchy.

Grosse says concerning primitive huntsmen in general,

There are no essential differences, of fortune among them, and thus a principal source for the origin of differences in station is lacking. Generally, all grown men within the tribe enjoy equal rights. The older men, thanks to their greater experience, have a certain authority; but no one feels himself bound to render them obedience. Where in some cases chiefs are recognized — as with the Botokude, the Central Californians, the Wedda and the Mincopie — their power is extremely limited. The chieftain has no means of enforcing his wishes against the will of the rest. Most tribes of hunters, however, have no chieftain. The entire society of the males still forms a homogeneous undifferentiated mass, in which only those individuals achieve prominence who are believed to possess magical powers.[1]

Here, then, there scarcely exists a spark of "statehood," even in the sense of ordinary theories of the state, still less in the sense of the correct sociological idea of the state.

The social structure of primitive peasants has hardly more resemblance to a state than has the horde of huntsmen. Where the peasant, working the ground with a grub, is living in liberty, there is as yet no "state." The plow is always the mark of a higher economic condition that occurs only in a state; that is to say, in a system of plantation work carried on by subjugated servants.[2] The grubbers live isolated from one another, scattered over the country in separated curtilages, perhaps in villages, split up because of quarrels about district or farm boundaries. In the best cases, they live in feebly organized associations, bound together by oath, attached only loosely by the tie that the consciousness of the same descent and speech and the same belief imposes upon them. They unite perhaps once a year in the common celebration of renowned ancestors or of the tribal god. There is no ruling authority over the whole mass; the various chieftains of a village, or possibly of a district, may have more or less influence in their circumscribed spheres, this depending usually upon their personal qualities, and especially upon the magical powers attributed to them. Cunow describes the Peruvian peasants before the incursion of the Incas as follows: "An unregulated living side by side of many independent, mutually warring tribes, who again were split up into more or less autonomous territorial unions, held together by ties of kinship."[3] One may say that all the primitive peasants of the old and new world were of this type.

In such a state of society, it is hardly conceivable that a warlike organization could come about for purposes of attack. It is sufficiently difficult to mobilize the clan, or still more the tribe, for common defense. The peasant is always lacking in mobility. He is as attached to the ground as the plants he cultivates. As a matter of fact, the working of his field makes him "bound to the soil" (glebae adscriptus), even though, in the absence of law, he has freedom of movement.

What purpose, moreover, would a looting expedition effect in a country that throughout its extent is occupied only by grubbing peasants? The peasant can carry off from the peasant nothing he does not already own. In a condition of society marked by superfluity of agricultural land, each individual contributes only a little work to its extensive cultivation. Each occupies as much territory as he needs. More would be superfluous. Its acquisition would be lost labor, even were its owner able to conserve for any length of time the grain products thus secured. Under primitive conditions, however, this spoils rapidly by reason of change of atmosphere, ants, or other agencies. According to Ratzel, the Central African peasant must convert the superfluous portion of his crops into beer as quickly as possible in order not to lose it entirely!

For all these reasons, primitive peasants are totally lacking in that warlike desire to take the offensive, which is the distinguishing mark of hunters and herdsmen: war cannot better their condition. And this peaceable attitude is strengthened by the fact that the occupation of the peasant does not make him an efficient warrior. It is true his muscles are strong and he has powers of endurance, but he is sluggish of movement and slow to come to a determination, while huntsmen and nomads by their methods of living develop speed of motion and swiftness of action. For this reason, the primitive peasant is usually of a more gentle disposition than they.

To sum up, within the economic and social conditions of the peasant districts, one finds no differentiation working for the higher forms of integration. There exists neither the impulse nor the possibility for the warlike subjection of neighbors. No "state" can therefore arise; and, as a matter of fact, none ever has arisen from such social conditions. Had there been no impulse from without, from groups of men nourished in a different manner, the primitive grubber would never have discovered the state.

Peoples Preceding the State: Herdsmen and Vikings

Herdsmen, on the contrary, even though isolated, have developed a whole series of the elements of statehood; and in the tribes that have progressed further, they have developed this in its totality, with the single exception of the last point of identification that completes the state in its modern sense, that is to say, with exception only of the definitive occupation of a circumscribed territory.

One of these elements is an economic one. Even without the intervention of extra-economic force, there may still develop among herdsmen a sufficiently marked differentiation of property and income. Assuming that, at the start, there was complete equality in the number of cattle, yet within a short time, the one man may be richer and the other poorer. An especially clever breeder will see his herd increase rapidly, while an especially careful watchman and bold hunter will preserve his from decimation by beasts of prey. The element of luck also affects the result. One of these herders finds an especially good grazing ground and healthful watering places; the other one loses his entire stock through pestilence, or through a snowfall or a sandstorm.

Distinctions in fortune quickly bring about class distinctions. The herdsman who has lost all must hire himself to the rich man; and sinking thus under the other, become dependent on him. Wherever herdsmen live, from all three parts of the ancient world, we find the same story. Meitzen reports of the Lapps, nomadic in Norway, "Three hundred reindeer sufficed for one family; who owned only a hundred must enter the service of the richer, whose herds ran up to a thousand head."[4]

The same writer, speaking of the Central Asiatic Nomads, says, "A family required three hundred head of cattle for comfort; one hundred head is poverty, followed by a life of debt. The servant must cultivate the lands of the lord."[5]

Ratzel reports concerning the Hottentots, of Africa a form of "commendatio": "The poor man endeavors to hire himself to the rich man, his only object being to obtain cattle."[6]

Laveleye, who reports the same circumstances from Ireland, traces the origin and the name of the feudal system (systeme feodal) to the loaning of cattle by the rich to the poor members of the tribe; accordingly, a "fee-od" (owning of cattle) was the first feud whereby so long as the debt existed the magnate bound the small owner to himself as "his man."

We can only hint at the methods whereby, even in peaceable associations of herdsmen, this economic and consequent social differentiation may have been furthered by the connection of the patriarchate with the offices of supreme and sacrificial priesthood if the wise old men used cleverly the superstition of their clan associates. But this differentiation, so long as it is unaffected by the political means, operates within very modest bounds. Cleverness and efficiency are not hereditary with any degree of certainty. The largest herd will be split up if many heirs grow up in one tent, and fortune is tricky. In our own day, the richest man among the Lapps of Sweden, in the shortest possible time, has been reduced to such complete poverty that the government has had to support him.

All these causes bring it about that the original condition of economic and social equality is always approximately restored.

The more peaceable, aboriginal, and genuine the nomad is, the smaller are the tangible differences of possession. It is touching to note the pleasure with which an old prince of the Tsaidam Mongols accepts his tribute or gift, consisting of a handful of tobacco, a piece of sugar, and twenty-five kopeks.[7]

This equality is destroyed permanently and in greater degree by the political means. "Where war is carried on and booty acquired, greater differences arise, which find their expression in the ownership of slaves, women, arms and spirited mounts."[8]

The ownership of slaves!The nomad is the inventor of slavery, and thereby has created the seedling of the state, the first economic exploitation of man by man.

The huntsman carries on wars and takes captives. But he does not make them slaves; either he kills them, or else he adopts them into the tribe. Slaves would be of no use to him. The booty of the chase can be stowed away even less than grain can be "capitalized." The idea of using a human being as a labor motor could only come about on an economic plane on which a body of wealth has developed, call it capital, which can be increased only with the assistance of dependent labor forces.

This stage is first reached by the herdsmen. The forces of one family, lacking outside assistance, suffice to hold together a herd of very limited size, and to protect it from attacks of beasts of prey or human enemies. Until the political means is brought into play, auxiliary forces are found very sparingly; such as the poorer members of the clan already mentioned, together with runaways from foreign tribes, who are found all over the world as protected dependents in the suite of the greater owners of herds.[9]

In some cases, an entire poor clan of herdsmen enters, half freely, into the service of some rich tribe.

Entire peoples take positions corresponding to their relative wealth. Thus the Tungusen, who are very poor, try to live near the settlements of the Tschuktsches, because they find occupation as herdsmen of the reindeer belonging to the wealthy Tschuktsches; they are paid in reindeer. And the subjection of the Ural-Samojedes by the Sirjaenes came about through the gradual occupation of their pasturing grounds.[10]

Excepting, however, the last named case, which is already very state-like, the few existing labor forces, without capital, are not sufficient to permit the clan to keep very large herds. Furthermore, methods of herding themselves compel division. For a pasture may not, as they say in the Swiss Alps, be "overpushed," that is to say, have too many cattle on it. The danger of losing the entire stock is reduced by the measure in which it is distributed over various pastures. For cattle plagues, storms, etc., can affect only a part; while even the enemy from abroad can not drive off all at once. For that reason, the Hereros, for example, "find every well-to-do owner forced to keep, besides the main herd, several other subsidiary herds. Younger brothers or other near relatives, or in want of these, tried old servants, watch them."[11]

For that reason, the developed nomad spares his captured enemy; he can use him as a slave on his pasture. We may note this transition from killing to enslaving in a customary rite of the Scythians: they offered up at their places of sacrifice one out of every hundred captured enemies. Lippert, who reports this, sees in it "the beginning of a limitation, and the reason thereof is evidently to be found in the value which a captured enemy has acquired by becoming the servant of a tribal herdsman."[12]


$28 $10

With the introduction of slaves into the tribal economy of the herdsmen, the state, in its essential elements, is completed, except that it has not as yet acquired a definitely circumscribed territorial limit. The state has thus the form of dominion, and its economic basis is the exploitation of human labor. Henceforth, economic differentiation and the formation of social classes progress rapidly. The herds of the great, wisely divided and better guarded by numerous armed servants than those of the simple freemen, as a rule, maintain themselves at their original number: they also increase faster than those of the freemen, since they are augmented by the greater share in the booty that the rich receive, corresponding to the number of warriors (slaves) that these place in the field.

Likewise, the office of supreme priest creates an ever-widening cleft, which divides the numbers of the clan, all formerly equals, until finally a genuine nobility, the rich descendants of the rich patriarchs, is placed in juxtaposition to the ordinary freemen.
 
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@OP

Yes, the minarchist position is inconsistent, even from a cost-benefit analysis (as David Friedman has pointed out). In order to accomplish what it is going for, minarchism must essentially deny the right of secession (individuals may not secede totally from the grip of government) and, in order to operate, the government must rely on taxation (theft on a grand scale). It also holds a monopoly on services like the police - if we really see marketplace competition as providing better quality goods and services, than in order to be consistent we must apply this to the police, the courts, the fire emergency services, etc.

Really, if you think that liberty is limited government, you're just kidding yourself, and in the end you are actually more inconsistent than liberals and socialists and other authoritarians because you fail to take it the final step whereas those guys actually go the full route in terms of levels of statism.
 
Could you elaborate on why you hold this to be true?

Sure.

How do we achieve anarcho capitalism? The powers that be wont be willing to simply give up power and dissolve the state lest an apocolyptic event destroyed human civilization allowing us to start from scratch or their was some armed revolution than Ancaps would reject anyway based on the NAP premise. Those facts combined with the fact that many Ancaps reject the political process or pragmatic realistic middle ground solutions to move us in the right direction, so then I have to ask how do we achieve their society?

Theyll say "Education" that somehow they will be able to educate the majority of people to their belief system. This would be impossible in and of itself but even if we did say that they where able to educate everyone the powers at be still wouldnt surrender power and many of them would still reject the political process even with these new found numbers.

But again thats besides the point because how to you convince the idiot masses to your anarcho capitalist society when the greatest libertarian minds couldnt be convinced of it (Ludwig Von Mises, Hayek, Friedman, Rand, Paul)

So unless theres something Im missing here which this poor n00b would love to hear how exactly do Anarcho Capitalists propose we achieve their vision? Considering someone like me who supports 99% of what they say is still a statist pig, there not leaving much room for progress.

Finally even if this vision was to be achieve how can it be sustained? This society would be so fragile it wouldnt take much for groups of people to form and out of their own power hungriness try to assume powers or create states. Lets say a charismatic CEO of a Private defense agency saying why not just take more than what he has.

Thats assuming some internal collapse but more realistically would simply be a larger state with lets say nuclear weapons a large army (Maybe conscripted) simply invading, bribing defense contractors etc etc.

The stateless society with its mercenaries would never be able to defend itself, the mercenaries arent willing to die they could simply be bought out or defeated by sheer numbers.

The strategic high ground or territory could be bought by the larger states and used to put any defending anarcho capitalist force in a weaker position. That is if the anarcho capitalists are even able to muster some sort of collective defense. This society would mostly be various different communities developing seperately from each other and thus a community more in the interior of such a society geographically wouldnt feel compelled to help some distant neighboring community who is being threatened with invasion. It provides an easy divide and conquer like scenario,.

This society would reject preemptive attacks, nuclear weapons, and severely limit itself in terms of defense capabilities that it could be conquered easily as what happened with Ireland (Which I dont think even was Anarcho Capitalist)
 
Anyway back to the original topic. I don't think Minarchists are inconsistent, they just have a different premise than Anarcho-capitalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism_and_minarchism

Libertarian philosopher Moshe Kroy argues that the disagreement between anarcho-capitalists who adhere to Murray Rothbard's view of human consciousness and the nature of values and minarchists who adhere to Ayn Rand's view of human consciousness and the nature of values over whether or not the state is moral is not due to a disagreement over the correct interpretation of a mutually held ethical stance. He argues that the disagreement between these two groups is instead the result of their disagreement over the nature of human consciousness and that each group is making the correct interpretation of their differing premises. These two groups are therefore not making any errors with respect to deducing the correct interpretation of any ethical stance because they do not hold the same ethical stance
 
First I'd like to start out by quoting DanMuff from the LibertyHQ forums in saying that "anarcho-capitalism exists to the extent that it doesn't." For many anarcho-capitalists who recognize it for what it is (a justice system) it is simply a matter of distinguishing between what is right and what isn't. This is nothing new, as it is done all the time in the same sense that nobody really believes we will ever totally eliminate true criminal activity, but this doesn't prevent us from calling it out and trying to prevent it. When criminal activity is successfully applied to the state, people who wish to be consistent in their views logically see the state as being the largest thief, the most massive of the mass murderers, and the largest offense to humanity.

So in this, it's not so much about thinking "now how can we TOTALLY eliminate the state" as it is calling the state out on it's criminal activity.

This is not to say of course that there aren't ways to actually achieve a stateless society. You say that AnCaps would reject revolution on the basis of the non-aggression principle, and this isn't necessarily true. It was Rothbard who wrote about how it is within your natural right to protect your person and property from the state, although I personally don't see revolution as being the answer. After all, this country (which was, essentially, minarchist at one point in time) was started through a revolution, and evolved into an empire which the Romans would have been proud of. You could say that this would be the same outcome of a stateless society (a gang of thieves simply taking over...and thus becoming the new state) but if you hold this to be true, why advocate minarchism? If it's already been demonstrated that minarchism is prone to evolve into another monolithic state, why not advocate a stateless society, regardless if you believe the same thing will happen? If it does indeed occur, well, at least the people living in that society would have seen a nice holiday.
 
Anyway back to the original topic. I don't think Minarchists are inconsistent, they just have a different premise than Anarcho-capitalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism_and_minarchism

That's a good point.

The reason I reject taxation, conscription, and such, is because I believe they violate objective moral laws. Randians don't believe in the existence of objective moral laws. Therefore, they don't worry about the state violating them.
 
First I'd like to start out by quoting DanMuff from the LibertyHQ forums in saying that "anarcho-capitalism exists to the extent that it doesn't." For many anarcho-capitalists who recognize it for what it is (a justice system) it is simply a matter of distinguishing between what is right and what isn't. This is nothing new, as it is done all the time in the same sense that nobody really believes we will ever totally eliminate true criminal activity, but this doesn't prevent us from calling it out and trying to prevent it. When criminal activity is successfully applied to the state, people who wish to be consistent in their views logically see the state as being the largest thief, the most massive of the mass murderers, and the largest offense to humanity.

So in this, it's not so much about thinking "now how can we TOTALLY eliminate the state" as it is calling the state out on it's criminal activity.

This is not to say of course that there aren't ways to actually achieve a stateless society. You say that AnCaps would reject revolution on the basis of the non-aggression principle, and this isn't necessarily true. It was Rothbard who wrote about how it is within your natural right to protect your person and property from the state, although I personally don't see revolution as being the answer. After all, this country (which was, essentially, minarchist at one point in time) was started through a revolution, and evolved into an empire which the Romans would have been proud of. You could say that this would be the same outcome of a stateless society (a gang of thieves simply taking over...and thus becoming the new state) but if you hold this to be true, why advocate minarchism? If it's already been demonstrated that minarchism is prone to evolve into another monolithic state, why not advocate a stateless society, regardless if you believe the same thing will happen? If it does indeed occur, well, at least the people living in that society would have seen a nice holiday.

Most of that can be blame on the constitution. I think we need a new one that is capable to learning all that we know now and applying it to a new constitution that will do a better job at defending against expansion of government powers.

The constitution we have is great and made us the freesest place on earth for most of our history. You seem to be shrugging this off as nothing when on the anrcho capitalist side theres nothing that came close to this level of success.
 
First I'd like to start out by quoting DanMuff from the LibertyHQ forums in saying that "anarcho-capitalism exists to the extent that it doesn't." For many anarcho-capitalists who recognize it for what it is (a justice system) it is simply a matter of distinguishing between what is right and what isn't. This is nothing new, as it is done all the time in the same sense that nobody really believes we will ever totally eliminate true criminal activity, but this doesn't prevent us from calling it out and trying to prevent it. When criminal activity is successfully applied to the state, people who wish to be consistent in their views logically see the state as being the largest thief, the most massive of the mass murderers, and the largest offense to humanity.

So in this, it's not so much about thinking "now how can we TOTALLY eliminate the state" as it is calling the state out on it's criminal activity.

This is not to say of course that there aren't ways to actually achieve a stateless society. You say that AnCaps would reject revolution on the basis of the non-aggression principle, and this isn't necessarily true. It was Rothbard who wrote about how it is within your natural right to protect your person and property from the state, although I personally don't see revolution as being the answer. After all, this country (which was, essentially, minarchist at one point in time) was started through a revolution, and evolved into an empire which the Romans would have been proud of. You could say that this would be the same outcome of a stateless society (a gang of thieves simply taking over...and thus becoming the new state) but if you hold this to be true, why advocate minarchism? If it's already been demonstrated that minarchism is prone to evolve into another monolithic state, why not advocate a stateless society, regardless if you believe the same thing will happen? If it does indeed occur, well, at least the people living in that society would have seen a nice holiday.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SkepticalMetal again.
,,
 
Most of that can be blame on the constitution. I think we need a new one that is capable to learning all that we know now and applying it to a new constitution that will do a better job at defending against expansion of government powers.

The constitution we have is great and made us the freesest place on earth for most of our history. You seem to be shrugging this off as nothing when on the anrcho capitalist side theres nothing that came close to this level of success.
"Most of that can be blamed on the Constitution." Okay, most of what? And a new constitution? First of all, the old one was wrong because it still advocated the "club mentality," which Lysander Spooner pointed out. Walter Block illustrated this when he talked about a man in 1776 who was told by agents of the new United States that they had just formed a club, and he was now in the club. And the mentality of "we need a better constitution based on what we know now" is no different from the "living constitution" of the progressives - the idea of how people can live their lives can be changed based on the era they live in (I'm saying this because it doesn't make sense for you to be saying this as a minarchist when we already have knowledge that indicates that a society can prosper without the state). It's not solid and it's not neutral. It's an inferior justice system which was written by a group of men who missed the point entirely, one of which crushed a disillusioned (and rightfully so) rebellion almost immediately after it was written.

And I have no clue why you say that nothing on the anarcho-capitalist side has come close to this success when anarcho-capitalist ethics were first theorized by Rothbard in the mid-to-late 20th century.

But all in all, you barely touched on what I said. If prosperity comes from competition in a free market...why are the police, the courts, and the fire department exempt from this? Because a gang will easily take over (like it did with the originally minarchist government of the U.S.)?
 
"Most of that can be blamed on the Constitution." Okay, most of what? And a new constitution? First of all, the old one was wrong because it still advocated the "club mentality," which Lysander Spooner pointed out. Walter Block illustrated this when he talked about a man in 1776 who was told by agents of the new United States that they had just formed a club, and he was now in the club. And the mentality of "we need a better constitution based on what we know now" is no different from the "living constitution" of the progressives - the idea of how people can live their lives can be changed based on the era they live in (I'm saying this because it doesn't make sense for you to be saying this as a minarchist when we already have knowledge that indicates that a society can prosper without the state). It's not solid and it's not neutral. It's an inferior justice system which was written by a group of men who missed the point entirely, one of which crushed a disillusioned (and rightfully so) rebellion almost immediately after it was written.

And I have no clue why you say that nothing on the anarcho-capitalist side has come close to this success when anarcho-capitalist ethics were first theorized by Rothbard in the mid-to-late 20th century.

But all in all, you barely touched on what I said. If prosperity comes from competition in a free market...why are the police, the courts, and the fire department exempt from this? Because a gang will easily take over (like it did with the originally minarchist government of the U.S.)?

So your argument is Anarcho capitalism is just as susceptible to being corrupted as Minarchism is?
 
So your argument is Anarcho capitalism is just as susceptible to being corrupted as Minarchism is?

I would mostly agree with that statement. The one point I would make though is that minarchism, through its use of aggressive violence out of "necessity" (or any other reason that minarchists may use), contributes to a culture and acceptance of the use of force against innocent people. Which would make minarchism more likely to be corrupted.
 
So your argument is Anarcho capitalism is just as susceptible to being corrupted as Minarchism is?
...No. My argument is that anarcho-capitalism is the one properly consistent libertarian philosophy. My point in saying what you referenced here was to say that if you honestly believe that warlords would take over (which hasn't actually happened seeing as how a stateless society has not yet come about) and yet at the same time acknowledge that EVERY government in the world, regardless of how it started out, always becomes corrupt in one way or another, then why would you ever be a proponent of minarchism as being something that's supposedly better? As I said before, we strive to achieve these things because we know they are right, not because we are hell-bent on achieving something that stands throughout eternity (although I happen to believe that man is evolving to the point where things such as this may be possible in the future). We do this in the same way that we don't expect to ever totally eliminate crime - but we still try and prevent it as much as possible.

I'm afraid that the "middle ground," whatever that may truly be, doesn't work when it comes to political philosophy because it becomes too complicated for that kind of a mindset. In other words, when it comes to the issue of government, you are either consistent or you aren't.
 
...No. My argument is that anarcho-capitalism is the one properly consistent libertarian philosophy. My point in saying what you referenced here was to say that if you honestly believe that warlords would take over (which hasn't actually happened seeing as how a stateless society has not yet come about) and yet at the same time acknowledge that EVERY government in the world, regardless of how it started out, always becomes corrupt in one way or another, then why would you ever be a proponent of minarchism as being something that's supposedly better? As I said before, we strive to achieve these things because we know they are right, not because we are hell-bent on achieving something that stands throughout eternity (although I happen to believe that man is evolving to the point where things such as this may be possible in the future). We do this in the same way that we don't expect to ever totally eliminate crime - but we still try and prevent it as much as possible.

I'm afraid that the "middle ground," whatever that may truly be, doesn't work when it comes to political philosophy because it becomes too complicated for that kind of a mindset. In other words, when it comes to the issue of government, you are either consistent or you aren't.

So your admitting now there has never been a stateless society? Werent you the one who claimed there where extensive examples of such earlier.

And I am consistent. I rather be moving in the right direction then none at all.

If there was an opportunity to privatize education Id take it in a heartbeat. If there was only an opportunity to create a voucher system Id take it over the status quo. I dont see anything wrong with that maybe you do (ignoring the technicalities and details of a proposed voucher system for the moment)

Anarcho Capitalism may very well be the most consistent and pure form of libertarianism but what does it matter if its all theory and unattainable. Which I believe it is.

Minarchism has a long track record of working and now that the ideas supporting it are becoming more formalized and established it will become increasingly easier to push for it and maintain it, through the libertarian movement.

States are inevitable. I rather accept that and try to find a way to tame them and maintain the maximum freedom as possible then pretend we can eliminate them through some sort of human evolution like your suggesting now.
 
So your admitting now there has never been a stateless society? Werent you the one who claimed there where extensive examples of such earlier.

Where did I claim this? As far as I know, the closest thing I ever said to this was that anarcho-capitalism exists in that it doesn't.

And I am consistent. I rather be moving in the right direction then none at all.

I'm assuming when you speak of "none at all" you are referring to anarcho-capitalism. This doesn't make sense through the logic you apply to advocate minarchism, which seems to be "anarcho-capitalism can be corrupted, so let's just get the corruption as minimal as possible" rather than striving to prevent it altogether. When looked at from this standpoint, it is minarchism which takes no direction.

Anarcho Capitalism may very well be the most consistent and pure form of libertarianism but what does it matter if its all theory and unattainable. Which I believe it is.

I think we should agree to disagree if you think it's simply unattainable, but I think I have to bring up the thing about crime - if you think taxation is theft, war is murder, etc, and you come to the conclusion that the state is the largest band of thieves, then if you believe in fighting crime, and you are consistent about fighting crime, you will logically look to the state as a criminal and seek to call it out on it's criminal activities. That's as simple as I can put it.

Minarchism has a long track record of working and now that the ideas supporting it are becoming more formalized and established it will become increasingly easier to push for it and maintain it, through the libertarian movement.

Really? Minarchism works? Then why don't I see any minarchist governments today? It's because they become corrupted (which you ironically say happens to anarcho-capitalism even though it's never even come about).

States are inevitable. I rather accept that and try to find a way to tame them and maintain the maximum freedom as possible then pretend we can eliminate them through some sort of human evolution like your suggesting now

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree with this one. Years ago I'm sure people must have thought that infidels being burned at the stake was inevitable, but we got past it and we have a greater sense of ethics now. I don't have to describe how much progress humanity has achieved.
 
So your admitting now there has never been a stateless society? Werent you the one who claimed there where extensive examples of such earlier.

Where did I claim this? As far as I know, the closest thing I ever said to this was that anarcho-capitalism exists in that it doesn't.

And I am consistent. I rather be moving in the right direction then none at all.

I'm assuming when you speak of "none at all" you are referring to anarcho-capitalism. This doesn't make sense through the logic you apply to advocate minarchism, which seems to be "anarcho-capitalism can be corrupted, so let's just get the corruption as minimal as possible" rather than striving to prevent it altogether. When looked at from this standpoint, it is minarchism which takes no direction.

Anarcho Capitalism may very well be the most consistent and pure form of libertarianism but what does it matter if its all theory and unattainable. Which I believe it is.

I think we should agree to disagree if you think it's simply unattainable, but I think I have to bring up the thing about crime - if you think taxation is theft, war is murder, etc, and you come to the conclusion that the state is the largest band of thieves, then if you believe in fighting crime, and you are consistent about fighting crime, you will logically look to the state as a criminal and seek to call it out on it's criminal activities. That's as simple as I can put it.

Minarchism has a long track record of working and now that the ideas supporting it are becoming more formalized and established it will become increasingly easier to push for it and maintain it, through the libertarian movement.

Really? Minarchism works? Then why don't I see any minarchist governments today? It's because they become corrupted (which you ironically say happens to anarcho-capitalism even though it's never even come about).

States are inevitable. I rather accept that and try to find a way to tame them and maintain the maximum freedom as possible then pretend we can eliminate them through some sort of human evolution like your suggesting now

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree with this one. Years ago I'm sure people must have thought that infidels being burned at the stake was inevitable, but we got past it and we have a greater sense of ethics now. I don't have to describe how much progress humanity has achieved.

Ignore my first point then I thought it was you. Didnt bother to look over the 10 pages.

Anyway to your last point its not a matter of ethics its a matter of power. Even if everyone somehow came to accept these libertarian or anarcho capitalist ethics, which is optimistic in and of itself, that wouldnt mean anything would change or states would disapear. The powers at be wont be giving up what they have even in the unlikely scenario you are able to get a good sum of the population to believe in your ideas.

I do like your quote "anarcho-capitalism exists in that it doesn't." Care to expand on that more? Because shortly there after you say "I think we should agree to disagree if you think it's simply unattainable" So are you saying its attainable but its existence is nonexistence? Very confusing and over philosophical but from a layman's perspective this seems very contradictory.
 
I like this. I am very Objectivist leaning myself.

Ayn Rand was very much against anarchism (and hence libertarianism.) Although I think she could've done better with her arguments against it, since there are counter situations.

A recent variant of anarchistic theory, which is befuddling some of the younger advocates of freedom, is a weird absurdity called “competing governments.” Accepting the basic premise of the modern statists—who see no difference between the functions of government and the functions of industry, between force and production, and who advocate government ownership of business—the proponents of “competing governments” take the other side of the same coin and declare that since competition is so beneficial to business, it should also be applied to government. Instead of a single, monopolistic government, they declare, there should be a number of different governments in the same geographical area, competing for the allegiance of individual citizens, with every citizen free to “shop” and to patronize whatever government he chooses.

Remember that forcible restraint of men is the only service a government has to offer. Ask yourself what a competition in forcible restraint would have to mean.

One cannot call this theory a contradiction in terms, since it is obviously devoid of any understanding of the terms “competition” and “government.” Nor can one call it a floating abstraction, since it is devoid of any contact with or reference to reality and cannot be concretized at all, not even roughly or approximately. One illustration will be sufficient: suppose Mr. Smith, a customer of Government A, suspects that his next-door neighbor, Mr. Jones, a customer of Government B, has robbed him; a squad of Police A proceeds to Mr. Jones’ house and is met at the door by a squad of Police B, who declare that they do not accept the validity of Mr. Smith’s complaint and do not recognize the authority of Government A. What happens then? You take it from there.

After reading the article about the Icelandic Commonwealth, there are alternative situations to her argument that can be found here.

The medieval Icelandic state had a unique judicial structure based on the principle of consensus. The initial settlers of Iceland were greatly influenced by their Norwegian roots when creating their own form of government. They wanted to avoid the strong centralized authority of Harald Fairhair from which they had fled, but they also wanted to replicate the Norwegian tradition of laws and district legal assemblies (Þing). This created a uniquely democratic structure about which historians continue to speculate today.[2]
The most powerful and elite leaders in Iceland were the chieftains (sing. goði, pl. goðar). The goðar were not elected to their positions, but rather owned their title. The position was most commonly inherited, but it could also be bought or sold. The office of the goði was called the goðorð. The goðorð was not delimited by strict geographical boundaries. Thus a free man could choose to support any of the goðar of his district. The supporters of the goðar were called Þingmenn ("assembly people"). In exchange for the goði protecting his interests, the Þingmann would provide armed support to his goði during feuds or conflicts. The Þingmenn were also required to attend regional and national assemblies.[3]
On a regional level, the goðar of the thirteen district assemblies convened meetings every spring to settle local disputes. The goðar also served as the leaders of the Althing (Alþingi), the national assembly of Iceland. Today, the Althing is the oldest parliamentary institution still in existence. It began with the regional assembly at Kjalarness established by Þorsteinn Ingólfsson, son of the first settler. The leaders of the Kjalarnessþing appointed a man named Úlfljótr to study the laws in Norway. He spent three years in Norway and returned with the foundation of Úlfljótr’s Law, which would form the basis for Iceland's national assembly. Sections of his law code are preserved in the Landnámabók, ("Book of Settlements"). The first Althing assembly convened around the year 930 at Þingvellir, ("Assembly Plains"). The Althing served as a public gathering at which people from all over the country met for two weeks every June. The Althing revolved around the Lögrétta, the legislative council of the assembly, which was responsible for reviewing and amending the nation's laws. The Lögrétta comprised the 39 goðar and their advisors. They also appointed a Lawspeaker (lögsögumaður) once every three years. The Lawspeaker recited and clarified laws at Lögberg ("Law Rock"), located at the center of Þingvellir.[4] The descendants of Ingólfr Arnarson, the first settler of Iceland, held the ceremonial position of allsherjargoði and had the role of sanctifying the Althing each year.

But then again, it didn't end well.

In the early 13th century, the Sturlung era, the Commonwealth began to suffer from chaos and division resulting from internal disputes. Originally, the goðar functioned more as a contractual relationship than a fixed geographic chieftaincy. However by 1220 this form of communal leadership was replaced by dominant regional individuals who battled with one another for more control. The King of Norway began to exert pressure on his Icelandic vassals to bring the country under his rule. A combination of discontent with domestic hostilities and pressure from the King of Norway led the Icelandic chieftains to accept Norway's Haakon IV as king by the signing of the Gamli sáttmáli ("Old Covenant") in 1262. This effectively brought the Icelandic Commonwealth to an end.
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I think the bolded is an example of a naturally forming state from an anarchic society. Nevertheless, it took a long time for it to happen.
 
Anyway to your last point its not a matter of ethics its a matter of power. Even if everyone somehow came to accept these libertarian or anarcho capitalist ethics, which is optimistic in and of itself, that wouldnt mean anything would change or states would disapear. The powers at be wont be giving up what they have even in the unlikely scenario you are able to get a good sum of the population to believe in your ideas.

Well other anarcho-capitalists (particularly Christian ones) have other ideas about how anarcho-capitalism will come about that don't revolve around piecing together Darwin's "On the Origin of Species" with anarcho-capitalism, so I'm speaking for myself and my views of it. But I personally believe that if the masses are educated on the evils of statism and the inherently criminal nature of government and the nasty deeds it thrives on, that there will eventually be mass tax evasion to send the state to it's heels. This is my view simply because I am a Nietzschean anarcho-capitalist, and I think that true human progress (and a milestone in it at that) will be the beriddance of the state, an institution that has plagued humanity since near it's dawn. Shortly put, I think it is a matter of human evolution, in the same way we utilize the Earth to create our own technology which is practically living and breathing, technology through which humans are becoming more and more connected and prone to recognize statism and call it out (gee, I wonder why the government hates the internet so much?).

I do like your quote "anarcho-capitalism exists in that it doesn't." Care to expand on that more? Because shortly there after you say "I think we should agree to disagree if you think it's simply unattainable" So are you saying its attainable but its existence is nonexistence? Very confusing and over philosophical but from a layman's perspective this seems very contradictory.

Well, the best source to expand on that would to be to go to the man I heard it from, DanMuff on the LibertyHQ forums:

"An-capism exists to the extent that it doesn't.

Also, most proponents of an-capism implicit believe that there will be violations of private property rights from now to eternity. Hence, private defense agencies."



From this stance, the notion of a "stateless society" and anarcho-capitalism are separate. From this perspective, anarcho-capitalism (or more accurately Voluntaryism) is a means of recognizing criminal activity through a particular kind of legal perspective, whereas having a "stateless society" is an extension of this outlook - a vision of a society where the largest criminal (the government) is suppressed through individuals freely exercising their economic freedom to bring about services otherwise provided by government, with the non-governmental catch being that it is right through voluntary means.
 
The bottom line for me is that you need a culture of freedom for either anarchism or minarchism to work. In anarchism you MIGHT get rid of the state but then people will still find other methods of using violence against innocent people. I also think an anarchist system would be VERY easy for the wealthy to manipulate. I'm usually a HUGE advocate for privatization but we've seen that it doesn't work for prisons. I don't see why it works for courts either, since a "Private" court would work in a way to benefit those who pay them the most. I don't think the profit motive works for law because I don't think we WANT the profit motive to work for law.

At the same time, I've seen that "Law without government" video and its points are compelling. I just think it assumes (Not deliberately) a type of inherent human goodness that I don't think exists. Admittedly, the same problem really does exist with a state. Look, I'm talking about my ideal situation, within any semblance of reason (Obviously, my ideal situation is that everyone would love his neighbor as himself, but we know that isn't happening, anarchism and minarchism are both unlikely but since neither absolutely contradicts human nature, we don't KNOW that they won't happen.

If you gave me a magic red button that would take the society we have now and transform it into a working ancap society, I'd definitely push it. I assume you guys would do the same for a button that took us to a minarchist society. Heck, I'd push the button to go back to the constitution, even though ideally I would roll back statism even further than that.

Without a culture of freedom, and we don't have one right now, we need (In my opinion) a minarchist state to restrain those who hate freedom from taking away mine. If I could, I'd make Ron Paul monarch in a heartbeat to speed up the process. (He's one of the few I'd trust, naturally). While that's an unlikely scenario, we can imagine it, and we can imagine King Paul restraining those who hate liberty, or at the very least refusing to infringe on ANY freedom at the Federal level (I suppose he might leave the states alone, personally if I were monarch I'd dissolve them and then decentralize everything to an extreme level on my deathbed, but now we're entering into the realm of the absurd). I can't imagine the current society sustaining freedom through ancap.

Here's the thing as well. I know government is just a big thug with a lot of weapons, but most people don't know that, and even those who do know respect (In the "I don't want to get killed" sense, not in the "Honorable" sense) force, which is why Murray Rothbard knew the state was evil but didn't just start shooting the thugs. Most people don't even get that far though. They assume government has some semblance of legitimacy. So when the government says "Don't infringe on someone's liberty" they obey, even if they would never vote to get government to allow someone that liberty. This is a bad example for me since I do believe abortion should be outlawed, but just to roll with it, most Christians think abortion should be illegal, but they would condemn a vigilante who killed an abortion doctor. I'll be honest and say I don't think Scott Roeder did anything wrong by killing George Tiller (Note, I am not ADVOCATING that anyone do anything illegal, I'm just saying that on pro-life libertarian principle, if I became monarch I would pardon a man like Scott Roeder as acting compatibly with the NAP by using force only against those who have murdered other people) but the VAST majority of pro-life Christians would balk at the idea. Why? They accept the state as per say legitimate. (Traditional Conservative, if you're watching this conversation, I'm genuinely curious what you think of this section of this post.) They think only the state has the right to institute justice.

So let's say a minarchist state creates a law that nobody can steal to aid the poor, property rights are legitimate, drugs are legal, exc. Conservative (Note: I'm using that in the POLITICAL sense, not in the social or personal sense, both definitions of which would render me a conservative)) Christians definitely don't want to legalize drugs, and some of them are fine with SOME theft to help the poor. Liberals definitely want to force the rich people to fork over a ton of money, and some of them are fine with SOME kidnapping to combat the drug trade (Among adults, I don't want to talk about children here, but I do believe that's a unique and different situation.)

On the other hand, if there's NO state these sorts of people will probably just create one, since they cannot see anarchy as legitimate.

Maybe I'm wrong here, I'm just typing as thoughts come to my head. Metaphorically tear me up, ancaps:)

All that said, I really don't have a problem with you guys. I agree with you all 95% of the time, and probably 99% of the theory (In theory I don't believe any state is justified either, I just don't think dismantling it is practical, at least not in my lifetime). You're on my team as long as you want to be. I just have a few minor disagreements is all.
 
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