McDonald's Might Start Accepting Bitcoin

0 confirms aren't as bad as people make them out to be.

1. 99.9% of people will never even attempt to double spend their bitcoin.
2. The 0.1% that might are almost certainly not going to bother at Mcdonalds.
Hmm. So, perhaps credit cards should take the same view. Nobody's going to bother doing a fraudulent charge for just $5. We'll just stop checking those. The 0.1% of people who would do that can now do so freely, and our system will make no attempt to stop them.

To what, exactly, do you think that will lead?
 
Well they probably don't like the high transaction fees on their cheap food.

A business will ask two questions. One- will it help me sell more food (or whatever they sell)? (Do bitcoin users shop at McDonald's a lot?- I can see Starbucks perhaps but probably not so much at Micky D's) Will it lower my costs (increase my profits)? In the case of McDonald's and Bitcoins- the answer is probably no on both.
 
Two years ago in Utah McDonald's was experimenting with taking payments directly from mobile phones with something called Isis Wallet. I tried using it at a McD's, but couldn't get the transaction to go through. Everyone behind the counter had been told McDonald's was going to be using the technology, but no one had been given directions on how to perform the transaction... heh heh.....

I can tell ya that Bitcoin is actually an easier technology to use.
 
Hmm. So, perhaps credit cards should take the same view. Nobody's going to bother doing a fraudulent charge for just $5. We'll just stop checking those. The 0.1% of people who would do that can now do so freely, and our system will make no attempt to stop them.

To what, exactly, do you think that will lead?


It's not exactly the same. The system will still look if at present you have enough bitcoin to cover the cost.

Zero Confirm just means it's possible that another transaction could be introduced before the original transaction gets "committed" to a block.

So, the scenario would be. You pay with your bitcoin at mcdonalds, system checks says yeah they got enough to cover this, but since the mcdonalds transaction has zero confirms it's not "commited'. So, you then immediately run across the street to the alcohol store snatch a bottle of vodka, and attempt to pay for it. Well, most likely it'd be blocked because you can see uncommited transactions on the network, so there provider will most likely block it.

But it is possible for a short time frame that a double spend gets introduced, in that scenario whichever transaction gets committed first would be the one that actually gets paid.

So, first it's not very likely you'd be successful to begin with, seeing Mcdonalds will be using a payment provider like coinbase or similiar and they monitor pending transactions. Second, you'd only be able to do it for cheap stuff, ONCE at any particular store. Any large purchase would require at least 1 confirm on the network, and the higher the cost the more confirms. Third, the longer you are at the location in question the GREATER the odds the double spend will be discovered from the other purchase. So, better get in and out quick or the cops will be called before you get out of the parking lot.

So, yeah, you'd have some percentage chance of getting one of your two transactions for free potentially. A coordinated attack with another person timing the swipes together would probably gain you the best odds. So, you swipe at mcdonalds, and I swipe at Burger King I suppose at the exact same time, and you'd probably have a small amount of time to escape. Unless of course Coinbase handles both Mcdonalds and Burger Kings transactions then they'd know instantly. So, make sure each business is using different providers and aren't sharing transaction data with each other to prevent double spends.

Anyway, but yeah it's possible to some degree. Not worth it though for 99.9% of the population, you'd be better off getting a minimum wage job, you'd do better.
 
Two years ago in Utah McDonald's was experimenting with taking payments directly from mobile phones with something called Isis Wallet. I tried using it at a McD's, but couldn't get the transaction to go through. Everyone behind the counter had been told McDonald's was going to be using the technology, but no one had been given directions on how to perform the transaction... heh heh.....

I can tell ya that Bitcoin is actually an easier technology to use.

lol'd
 
It's not exactly the same. The system will still look if at present you have enough bitcoin to cover the cost.

Zero Confirm just means it's possible that another transaction could be introduced before the original transaction gets "committed" to a block.

So, the scenario would be...

Anyway, but yeah it's possible to some degree.
That's one scenario.

Could I make an app to automatically do a double-spend every time? To make a second spend, to myself?

Yes, yes I could.

No running to the liquor store required.

Gaping security holes are gaping security holes. Expressing confidence that they will surely never be exploited is no defense, and is ridiculous.
 
I'll gladly pay you in Bitcoins valued on Tuesday for a hamburger today.
 
Do the people here who think they know what they're talking about actually tried to use Bitcoin before? There seems to be a lot of arm-chair haters around here. But nobody has actually tried using it to send to another wallet or buy something. Doing this completely changes your perspective on things. Especially going from wallet to wallet with no middle-man.

I've tried to do a zero confirm double-spend transaction before as a test and I can never get it to work. When you send your money it always appears instantly on the receiver side. Confirming the transaction just means the receiver can't re-spend the coin for 10 minutes. The legacy rails of the banking system are WAY slower. Mcdonald's doesn't actually get their credit card/apple pay money for many days or more.
 
Do the people here who think they know what they're talking about actually tried to use Bitcoin before? There seems to be a lot of arm-chair haters around here. But nobody has actually tried using it to send to another wallet or buy something. Doing this completely changes your perspective on things. Especially going from wallet to wallet with no middle-man.

I've tried to do a zero confirm double-spend transaction before as a test and I can never get it to work. When you send your money it always appears instantly on the receiver side. Confirming the transaction just means the receiver can't re-spend the coin for 10 minutes. The legacy rails of the banking system are WAY slower. Mcdonald's doesn't actually get their credit card/apple pay money for many days or more.

In New Zealand, nobody uses credit cards and nobody uses cash. It all bank to bank transfers with no fees. Any bank that charged fees would have zero customers in a week. The payment is *immediately* available in the vendors account.

In fact most stores ban credit cards, or charge 2% more to cover the fees.
 
In New Zealand, nobody uses credit cards and nobody uses cash. It all bank to bank transfers with no fees. Any bank that charged fees would have zero customers in a week. The payment is *immediately* available in the vendors account.

In fact most stores ban credit cards, or charge 2% more to cover the fees.

Person to Person still reigns supreme for obvious reasons. Bank to Bank with no fees is all fine and dandy until the day comes when a bail-in happens (aka Cyprus)
 
Do the people here who think they know what they're talking about actually tried to use Bitcoin before?

I get the feeling they haven't. It's not hard, just download a wallet like Electrum and you're good to go. One of us would probably send you a few bits to try things out. But no.
 
In New Zealand, nobody uses credit cards and nobody uses cash. It all bank to bank transfers with no fees. Any bank that charged fees would have zero customers in a week. The payment is *immediately* available in the vendors account.

In fact most stores ban credit cards, or charge 2% more to cover the fees.

Nobody uses cash or credit cards in New Zealand? Curious. Got a link?
 
That's one scenario.

Could I make an app to automatically do a double-spend every time? To make a second spend, to myself?

Yes, yes I could.

No running to the liquor store required.

Gaping security holes are gaping security holes. Expressing confidence that they will surely never be exploited is no defense, and is ridiculous.

http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/848064fa2e80f88a57aef43d7d5956c6/P2P2013_093.pdf
http://www.coindesk.com/double-spending-unconfirmed-transactions-concern-bitcoin/
Steps can be taken to mitigate the probability of success. All this is outsourced, the merchant wouldn't actually do anything really.

Besides what mentioned in the pdf, there are also other "tweaks" proposed that could be implemented into bitcoin to reduce the probability.

Anyway, I don't think it's a real problem for low value purchases, in the sense that monitoring can minimize the potential success of such an attack, and future updates will diminish the reward further.

Really, the premise that if there is a small chance of theft the system becomes invalid is false. Right now, every transaction via credit or debit card incurs from 1.5-4% cost. A Bitcoin transaction would incur 1% cost if using coinbase. So... .5 percent or higher of purchasing depending on the difference could be lost to theft and the "profit" at the end of the day would be equal to the credit card solution. A properly developed system should result in an overall increase in profit
 
Eventually companies will be comfortable enough with creating their own wallets that you can send BTC directly to (no fee). Of major retailers, I predict Overstock will be the first to do this. Their IT departments would have to handle the cold storage, etc. Not viable for now. Might as well let coinbase or bitpay handle this for now.
 
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Steps can be taken to mitigate the probability of success.

Well exactly. And that is the proper course to take with security holes, not to make excuses for them or try to imagine reasons why they will never be exploited, or why even if they are, they're no problem. Security holes should be fixed.

I am not on the enemy side of some pro/anti Bitcoin dichotomy as you seem to imagine, by the way. I am no "hater." I was simply addressing the particular words which you wrote.
 
Nobody uses cash or credit cards in New Zealand? Curious. Got a link?
I spent a month there a few years back and bank cards were the most common payment form I saw. The in-country e-commerce was all like that too. Was rather surprising. If I recall they have done away with the penny and nickle.
 
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